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Atheism

Atheists don't murder people in the name of atheism.
Stalin, Mao & Pol Pot were atheists yes. However, they committed these atrocities because of nationalistic, racial & political ideologies.
Not because they did not believe in God, but because they took Marxism to an extreme level.

"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness." - Karl Marx (A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right)

What difference does it make? They were still Atheists killing off religion. Sheesh.

Almost all so-called religious violence has other motives behind it, especially from those up on top. But, fact remains, the stooges at the bottom of the totem pole were atheists killing religious people because they were religious.
 
lol...Sweden is quite the socialist experiment though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

THanks for making my point. :)


BTW: I never said word one about atheist churches. I only pointed to atheist regimes murdering millions upon millions of religious people.

No, not you going on about 'atheist churches' but other people. And yes its the Swedish 'social medel' not a 'socialist' model.
 
No, not you going on about 'atheist churches' but other people. And yes its the Swedish 'social medel' not a 'socialist' model.

Fine hair splitting. It's still a rather socialist system, when compared to other parts of the world, and as you said, atheism is promoted and religion discouraged.

BTW: aren't you one of those countries with such a low birth rate that you're running out of young people?

Population Aging and the Future of the Welfare State: The Example of Sweden - Bengtsson - 2011 - Population and Development Review - Wiley Online Library
 
What difference does it make? They were still Atheists killing off religion. Sheesh.

Almost all so-called religious violence has other motives behind it, especially from those up on top. But, fact remains, the stooges at the bottom of the totem pole were atheists killing religious people because they were religious.

You miss the point, they are not killing off people in the name of atheism as the Crusades and Inquisition did and they were murdering everyone, not just religious folks.
 
You miss the point, they are not killing off people in the name of atheism as the Crusades and Inquisition did and they were murdering everyone, not just religious folks.

Religions were specifically targeted: places of worship destroyed, religious leaders exiled or killed, believers forced to renounce their beliefs.... That's pretty hard to deny.
 
Religions were specifically targeted: places of worship destroyed, religious leaders exiled or killed, believers forced to renounce their beliefs.... That's pretty hard to deny.

Not denied, they were just included in the mass murders and destruction. Had only the religious been targeted, you'd have a point. But history clearly demonstrates you do not.
 
It may be impossible to observe the human condition objectively, as humans, but it's worth trying. That being said, it's pretty obvious that there is an innate desire in humans to have a spiritual identity and there are as many versions as there are cultures. Therefore, while we can only speculate about the existence of super nature, the human desire to explain our existence and our awareness of it is not up for debate.

To call yourself "atheist" does not explain anything and is, in fact, just a way of living with a consciousness that does not value magical explanations for things. That being said, taking the position that super nature does not exist is presumptuous, though not nearly as much so as pretending a very specific magic is our reality. We all exist in a state of ignorance about the "grand scheme", so calling yourself an "atheist" is just another form of spiritual division, as much so as calling yourself "catholic" or "muslim".

So, as atheists, for us to pat ourselves on the back for being more honest than the faithful is to celebrate our difference rather than to intelligently acknowledge our similarities. If we atheists are actually endowed with a superior intellect or, at the least, liberated from irrational fears, then we owe it to humanity NOT to play the sectarian game by telling everyone else that we are superior for what we doubt, rather than what we believe. In other words, it behooves us to establish our morality by NOT defining ourselves according to our differences. If we believe that humans all evolved with the same needs and base desires, then we cannot so easily separate ourselves, even from the most dedicated faithful.

So, I have come to identify less as an atheist, which is a subjective interpretation of the spiritual reality of others, and more of an "evolutionist", meaning that I desire the future of humanity to be our focus, rather than the past. If we can come together enough to create a positive self-directed human evolution, then the most harmful spiritual relics of cavemen will finally be vanquished and made powerless to destroy the lives of our offspring the way faith has destroyed so many lives throughout history.

Now, I realize that the word "evolve" is a loaded one within the spiritual community. It is considered a counter argument to creation rather than a process for it. So, a few concessions could be made by both the faithful and faithless to make the future brighter. First of all, having the right to believe whatever you like does not make your beliefs, whatever they are, intelligent. Secondly, a stagnant morality is humanly impossible, so quit trying to pretend it exists. There are NO commandments from the distant past that have any moral relevance today. Religions ALL evolve and denying it makes you seem married to dogma rather than righteousness. And finally, we must all realize that if our philosophy manifests as harm on this planet, it doesn't matter what benefit to the harmed or to ones self that one imagines it creates, it's harm. Stop it!

Boiled down, these rules could be:

1) Don't be an idiot.
2) Don't be afraid to change.
3) Don't be a dick.

If these three common sense "commandments" could be consistently realized by the faithful and faithless alike, our religious labels would seem much less important.
 
I just tell people that faith is a gift that god has not blessed me with. That normally stops them from trying to change my mind for me

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That's a good answer. I wish there were similarly good answers to get people with other issues out of my face now and then. :)

I am pretty sure nobody has ever been persuaded to accept the reality of God by being told they are going to Hell or that they must repent because the end is near or such as that. I sure am not persuaded to be sympathetic to various gay rights causes or support for unions or women's rights, or care about "Black Lives Matter" and/or to be an Atheist when angry, rude, insulting, aggressive people are in my face about any of that, etc.

I believe in God because I have experienced God in my personal life in a manner I cannot deny and the experience was sufficiently compelling to allow me to have faith that it was not a delusion or illusion or some other phenomenon. I also believe that I have no power to demand or even persuade others to believe as I believe, though if they give me a valid opening to do so, I enjoy assuring them that the experience is available to all. :)
 
D_natured, you weaken your otherwise well thought argument with this expression: "We all exist in a state of ignorance about the "grand scheme...". This presupposes there is a grand scheme and essentially reflects the religious POV.
 
D_natured, you weaken your otherwise well thought argument with this expression: "We all exist in a state of ignorance about the "grand scheme...". This presupposes there is a grand scheme and essentially reflects the religious POV.

There is, in the universe, a grand evolving. I guess calling it a grand scheme is appropriate if one suspends the idea that "scheme" involves guidance by an intelligence.
 
That also seems to have happened in China , with Mao, and North Korea, with that psycho that is there now.

Frankly I think Deng Xiapong and certainly not Mao will be thought of as the Great man who turned China around 50 years from now
 
Then you are not credible. You're just biased and probably brainwashed, because anyone who knows anything knows OBL's motives for 911 were not religious.

Who brainwashed me then ? :waiting:
 
D_natured, you weaken your otherwise well thought argument with this expression: "We all exist in a state of ignorance about the "grand scheme...". This presupposes there is a grand scheme and essentially reflects the religious POV.

I thought you might seize upon that part. I guess what I'm saying is, there may be a "grand scheme", as the fact that we don't see any obvious hints does not preclude its existence.

Maybe you'll agree it's not an equivalent act of conjecture to imagine a non-specific god as opposed to imagining the Old Testament version. Neither is it equal to imagine a god as opposed to imagining just a "force". Whether any of the myths are true, though, I have an interest in everyone getting along here on Earth. If I have to concede that a "force" (non--specific god) may exist, that's better than just having a fight when I tell people they're dumb for believing in anything at all.

I see your problem but I think my mind is big enough not to get hung up on whether people deserve to believe in something that may not be "true". I don't care as long as the three previous rules are not violated.
 
That's a good answer. I wish there were similarly good answers to get people with other issues out of my face now and then. :)

I am pretty sure nobody has ever been persuaded to accept the reality of God by being told they are going to Hell or that they must repent because the end is near or such as that. I sure am not persuaded to be sympathetic to various gay rights causes or support for unions or women's rights, or care about "Black Lives Matter" and/or to be an Atheist when angry, rude, insulting, aggressive people are in my face about any of that, etc.

I believe in God because I have experienced God in my personal life in a manner I cannot deny and the experience was sufficiently compelling to allow me to have faith that it was not a delusion or illusion or some other phenomenon. I also believe that I have no power to demand or even persuade others to believe as I believe, though if they give me a valid opening to do so, I enjoy assuring them that the experience is available to all. :)
Your correct in that you dont have the power to make me believe in something anymore than i have the power to make you not believe in something. Its not even a voluntary thing that you can control about yourself. You either believe in something our you do not.

We get into trouble when we start thinking we can control what people believe. I practice the motto of live and let live



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Who brainwashed me then ? :waiting:

Whoever convinced you that 911 was about religion but that the Soviets murdering millions of religious people for being religious was not. :roll:
 
Whoever convinced you that 911 was about religion but that the Soviets murdering millions of religious people for being religious was not. :roll:

So if the 9/11 attackers had been athiests it would still have happened ?

........ right :roll:
 
So if the 9/11 attackers had been athiests it would still have happened ?

........ right :roll:

If the communists in Soviet Russia were not atheists, would they have still killed off all the religious leaders, burned down all the places of worship and punished anyone who tried to practice their religion?
 
Why not just answer my question ?

Your the one who brought geopolitics into the argument when you defended atheism, denying it played a part in the killing of millions of religious people in the Soviet Union.
 
So the 9/11 attackers were motivated only by religion, and not be geopolitical events?

I think that it the planning was economic, but the justification to the people giving the ultimate sacrifice was religious.
 
If the communists in Soviet Russia were not atheists, would they have still killed off all the religious leaders, burned down all the places of worship and punished anyone who tried to practice their religion?

Maybe maybe not who knows. The church had been exploiting the proletariate for centuries after all
 
Why not just answer my question ?

Because atheists in Saudi Arabia would have more pressing concerns than US imperialism. It's like saying that the IRA was religiously motivated because their attacks wouldn't have been carried out by Buddhists.

Now answer my question, were the attackers motivated only by religion?
 
Maybe maybe not who knows. The church had been exploiting the proletariate for centuries after all

Still boils down to atheists killing the religious, just like I said about a dozen posts earlier.
 
Your the one who brought geopolitics into the argument when you defended atheism, denying it played a part in the killing of millions of religious people in the Soviet Union.

The difference is atheism makes no demands upon a person. It does not guaranty they are rational in any other sense other than spirituality. You can be an atheist and still be bat **** crazy. You can be atheist and still be an egomaniacal dictator. Would you feel better about the deaths if Stalin had been a Mormon or a Buddhist? Just because the faithful imagine that their spiritual wishes are more important than empirical reality doesn't mean that Stalin or any other atheist ever thought that way.

Stalin imagined no reward in the afterlife for his killing and he imagined no punishment either. Being able to imagine these things for yourself has never kept anyone from killing, though. It has, however, determined whom they kill. Stalin killed those who got in his way or undermined his absolute authority with talk of a sky man. He knew they would NEVER abandon their sky man while still breathing and he was right. There is no argument or threat that can pry a person loose from their comfort.

If so many people didn't do so many crazy things in the name of god, the term "atheist" would be an unnecessary distinction. The word is only useful because so many acts of idiocy are perpetrated in the name of faith. Some people just want to disassociate with that sort of ****, even if it really means nothing.
 
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