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Thread: Religion diminishes intellect[W:114,1607]

  1. #3321
    Sage

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    Re: Religion diminishes intellect[W:114,1607]

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell797 View Post
    The temperature record does not depart from the expectation of warming. It has warmed and continues to warm. Your efforts to show otherwise fail.

    The science does not indicate "runaway" global warming. The system transitions toward a different equilibrium point.

    Human civilization developed within a relatively stable climate, that of the Holocene interglacial. Global temperature has not varies by more than 1C or so over that period. The Eemian interglacial of 125,000 year ago was on average 1C warmer than today and sea levels were 18-30 feet above those of today.

    The coming and going of northern hemisphere glaciation is caused by the Earth's orbital parameters, such as it's obliquity, eccentricity and a precession of the equinoxes.
    They are not caused by the rise and fall of CO2 in the atmosphere, although once the temperature starts to rise, CO2 out gassed from the oceans enhance the warming.

    CO2 acts as both a feedback to warming and also a lead contributor to warming when dumped into the atmosphere either by natural process or by mankind's activities.

    There is no "lock step" causation as you call it. Over the short term of say 10 to 20 years natural forcing agents such as solar variability, atmospheric aerosols, coupled oceanic/atmospheric oscillations (PDO) and more engage in a tug of war with the ever increasing radiative forcing given by CO2 as it builds up in the atmosphere.

    The net forcing from all factors is what determines the temperature, but the temperature impact is not immediate. It takes time measured in decades to centuries for the global temperature to come to full equilibrium with a persistent forcing.

    No one is "viciously" attacked unless they are blatant liars spewing disinformation.
    The "expectation" of warming is hardly more scientific than the guy on the next bar stool thinking out loud.

    Science typically requires a tad more exactitude than an expectation. The goals post seem to be getting walked back...

    Civilization seems to have risen at a point in the climate record that was almost a whole degree warmer than today. That does not seem like a great argument to fear a return to that Golden Age.

    CO2's incremental Green House Effect diminishes as the concentration increases.

    <snip>

    IPCC Published reports, (TAR3), acknowledge that the effective temperature increase caused by growing concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere radically diminishes with increasing concentrations. This information has been presented in the IPCC reports. It is well disguised for any lay reader, (Chapter 6. Radiative Forcing of Climate Change: section 6.3.4 Total Well-Mixed Greenhouse Gas Forcing Estimate) [1]. It is a crucial fact, but not acknowledged in the IPCC summary for Policy Makers[2].

    <snip>
    The Milankovitch Cycles do seem to dictate the timing of interglacials, but that cycling did not seem to begin until the ocean currents were revised by the closure of the isthmus of Panama due to Continental Drift.

    Scientists stating opposing view points does not make a person a "blatant liars spewing disinformation".

    Branding a person as such is not intended to create an enlarged arena of ideas. It is designed to end discussion and inquiry. Ending inquiry seems like a poor way to encourage inquiry.

    The clear implication of the AGW Proponents is that by controlling the emission of Anthropogenic CO2, mankind can control and direct the climate of the planet. This implication dismisses the other 50 or so causers of climate change.

    I am glad that you are including at least a few of these in your presentation now.

    If your position is that the Anthropogenic Emission of CO2 is a problem akin to any other pollution, then that is an easily supportable proposition.

    If your position is that the globally unified control of CO2 will allow mankind to control and direct the climate of the planet, that is something altogether different and requires an irrefutable argument and proof that simply does not exist.
    I am not of the mind that a man is either of science or of religion. At his best and his worst, man exists in the misty glimmering where the falling angel meets the rising ape. That he chooses a direction from that point defines him as human.

  2. #3322
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    Re: Religion diminishes intellect[W:114,1607]

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell797 View Post
    Just to be clear. It's mainstream science which is under attack, not the other way around. Every major scientific and academic institution in the world acknowledges or endorses the scientific consensus. We are forced to defend sciences such as biological evolution and AGW from ideologues who for reasons other than the annals of actual scientific research seek to damage those sciences by calling into question the integrity of both the scientists and the sciences. This has been going on for centuries, the AGW thing is just the latest chapter.

    Now to you question. Yes ocean currents are a first order cause of melting sea ice. The ice melts away from the edges inward. It melts from below as well as from above. The lowest extent of the Arctic sea ice occurs during late summer in September. There exist old ice (more than 3 years old) and new ice which forms every cold season. It's the old ice which is disappearing over time. That old ice is also the thickest ice. The less of it there is, the faster the total ice volume decays.

    Warmer waters encroaching into the Arctic are melting ice. That warmth comes from the tropics. Due to the Second Law of Thermodynamics (entropy), if warm water is melting ice, then heat must be taken away from the tropics to do so. That should decrease the temperature of the waters south of the Arctic, but those waters are warming also. The oceans have been warming overall, rather than staying the same temperature with the heat merely distributed differently. So, the question is still what is warming the global ocean?
    The Sun?
    I am not of the mind that a man is either of science or of religion. At his best and his worst, man exists in the misty glimmering where the falling angel meets the rising ape. That he chooses a direction from that point defines him as human.

  3. #3323
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    Re: Religion diminishes intellect[W:114,1607]

    Apparently, the Global Warming religion also diminishes intellect.

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