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Even Our Popes are WIMPS NOW

Hawkeye10 said:
Are you sure about this? Then why does almost no one ever quit to live the easy good life like this one did? Why should I not conclude that the very few easy road followers must be defective in the eyes of the Lord, based upon what is in that guidebook he gave us? Look at NOAH just to name one, now there is a hard working servant right there. And this Pope decides to retire to his gardens and friends"Because the doctors told me to"? I dont think that can be cool for such a high leader as the POPE, I think he might just get an earful when he gets to Heaven.
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I think trying to decide God's opinion for Him is the height of arrogance.

Hawkeye10 said:
I gotta go, but my current theory revolves around this Pope finally figuring out that he was not good enough, so he had to move aside to give someone else a chance, THAT was his duty as a failed POPE.

I am waiting for him to admit it.

I apologize for leaving a bit of misunderstanding on where I stand. I try to not do that.
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I think your opinion is weird, wrong, and borderline obsessive.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Are we comparing him to the average man or to the average Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the Vatican City State, Servant of the servants of God?

That Sir is the rub.

EDIT: this thread rolls right into my "civilization is in a death spiral" argument.
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A whole ****load of popes never lived to be 83....
 
Ikari said:
In Catholic mythology, the Pope is the voice of god on earth, what he says is the will and law of god. So if the Pope says something, it's as if god itself had said it.

I don't actually know why this particular pope retired when none others before had. Maybe he got tired of shuffling around and covering for pedophile priests. Still, I would suspect it's actually a pretty nice gig and you get to live in that lavish palace while people in the world starve to death; and that bit of hypocrisy has got to keep one warm at night.

Trevor Moore has a song/music video about the pope that is hilarious.
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RE: The bolded, he was doing that LONG before he became Pope.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Are you sure about this? Then why does almost no one ever quit to live the easy good life like this one did? Why should I not conclude that the very few easy road followers must be defective in the eyes of the Lord, based upon what is in that guidebook he gave us? Look at NOAH just to name one, now there is a hard working servant right there. And this Pope decides to retire to his gardens and friends"Because the doctors told me to"? I dont think that can be cool for such a high leader as the POPE, I think he might just get an earful when he gets to Heaven.
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According to the Bible, Noah lived to be 950, 350 years after he build the Ark. Not like that ***** Benedict, who retired at 86.

Maybe, now just maybe, this is all bull****.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Pope Emeritus Benedict Calls Resignation '''a Duty''' in Biography - NBC News

We go 500 years without a Pope quitting while blaming it on the doctors, then we we get this.

How embarrassing.

Of course the more years he lives the more proof we have that he is lying.
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I have to concur with others, your positions here are absurd.

There is no rule, or theological reason, why a Pope cannot retire.

In case you missed, it, Benedict's predecessor stayed until his death, even while having Parkinson's. He was not a wuss.

Although John Paul II stayed in office, and inspired people with that choice, it is very difficult for outsiders like us to know how badly this may have impeded his ability to do the job at a critical time.

No one was embarrassed by Benedict XVI's choice to retire.

Benedict XVI's physical health is reportedly not good, though he is reportedly lucid.


why does almost no one ever quit to live the easy good life like this one did?
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Because few of them lived to 83.

From 1500 to the present, on average popes were elected at 64, died at 74, serving 10 years in office. Benedict XVI was one of the oldest popes elected, and served 8 years. Even in modern times, few popes were still in office in their 80s.


Why should I not conclude that the very few easy road followers must be defective in the eyes of the Lord, based upon what is in that guidebook he gave us?
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Because nothing in the New Testament says that Popes are required to die in office.

Nor does Christian ethics require that a priest take the "hard road." It seems evident that what matters is right actions, right intent, faith and *cough* compassion.


I think he might just get an earful when he gets to Heaven.
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"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" - Matthew 7:1-3


my current theory revolves around this Pope finally figuring out that he was not good enough, so he had to move aside to give someone else a chance, THAT was his duty as a failed POPE.

I am waiting for him to admit it.
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You do realize you've gone from "our Popes are wimps" to "no one would quit that job" to "he didn't think he was good enough."

I see no evidence that Benedict XVI thought he was doing a bad job. He also had no way to know for certain who would replace him, and while he seems to support Francis, AFAIK they do not share theological positions. In particular, Benedict is more conservative than Francis.
 
Visbek said:
I have to concur with others, your positions here are absurd.

There is no rule, or theological reason, why a Pope cannot retire.
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I will feel better when I have a good quote to that effect, and no one here objects. I dont know, I am here for instruction.

In case you missed, it, Benedict's predecessor stayed until his death, even while having Parkinson's. He was not a wuss.
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Thanks for the help with my case, but I would prefer to do it alone, if you dont mind.

Although John Paul II stayed in office, and inspired people with that choice, it is very difficult for outsiders like us to know how badly this may have impeded his ability to do the job at a critical time.
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Sure, and I bet Popes not able to do much of anything happened, but the question that was on the table is still there....why do almost all the Popes go that way, and why did this one not.
No one was embarrassed by Benedict XVI's choice to retire.
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I look around, and I gotta say, I see no evidence on that either way.

Benedict XVI's physical health is reportedly not good, though he is reportedly lucid.
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I have seen no reports that I trust.


Because few of them lived to 83.

From 1500 to the present, on average popes were elected at 64, died at 74, serving 10 years in office. Benedict XVI was one of the oldest popes elected, and served 8 years. Even in modern times, few popes were still in office in their 80s.
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You are aware that we tend to live longer than our ancestors, if you are going back to 1500 a lot longer....
Because nothing in the New Testament says that Popes are required to die in office.
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Do you have a quote on when servants are released from their vows to serve?

Nor does Christian ethics require that a priest take the "hard road." It seems evident that what matters is right actions, right intent, faith and *cough* compassion.
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I do believe their is something about modeling strength as best one can.


"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" - Matthew 7:1-3
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A superbly dumb idea, I cant get along in this world without judging, no one can.



You do realize you've gone from "our Popes are wimps" to "no one would quit that job" to "he didn't think he was good enough."
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Does not mean he should have quit. Maybe he should have tried harder.
I see no evidence that Benedict XVI thought he was doing a bad job
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. Rome reforms had failed, he had been out maneuvered and everyone knew it, including the POPE.

He also had no way to know for certain who would replace him,
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Does not matter, if he had decided that he could not then anyone coming in had a better chance than he did, was a better bet
and while he seems to support Francis, AFAIK they do not share theological positions. In particular, Benedict is more conservative than Francis.
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Frances has done a much better job of handling Rome, and seems more modern, which is a good thing. However, the fact that this POPE leaving was likely better for the Church does not explain why he left when almost no one else does, which is the answer I am after, as well as wanting to touch base with Christians about this whole thing.


NOTE: I like will not answer a bunch of posts in this thread, I have no time at present.
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Hawkeye10 said:
I will feel better when I have a good quote to that effect, and no one here objects. I dont know, I am here for instruction.
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Okay then....

The passage that establishes Peter as the leader of the Church is a bit vague. It establishes him as a critical figure, but does not establish a sophisticated Church hierarchy, with the Bishop of Rome at the summit.

Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock (petra) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:13-19

Peter almost certainly was not the Bishop of Rome. There was no such thing as a "Pope" during Peter's lifetime. In fact, there wasn't a Roman Catholic Church, or a New Testament, or a coherent church with a settled doctrine for hundreds of years. There certainly isn't anything I know of that requires the Pope to die in office.


Sure, and I bet Popes not able to do much of anything happened, but the question that was on the table is still there....why do almost all the Popes go that way, and why did this one not. I look around, and I gotta say, I see no evidence on that either way.
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There are lots of possible reasons. In most cases, it was that being Pope was a powerful political position, held by highly ambitious men, who had no interest in giving up that power. Tradition is also an important factor -- but not a theological one.

It's also very arguable that Popes should have retired, rather than stay in office when they were infirm, ineffective or unwilling.

And of course, the RCC supported his retirement.


I have seen no reports that I trust.
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Were you looking?

Vatican: Pope Benedict is frail, but his mind remains 'perfectly lucid'


You are aware that we tend to live longer than our ancestors, if you are going back to 1500 a lot longer....
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I am. But living longer also often means living with more serious health issues.


Do you have a quote on when servants are released from their vows to serve?
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Who says Benedict XVI is not serving? He hasn't left the Church. He's still active. He did enough interviews to literally turn into a 240-page book, which is coming out next month.


A superbly dumb idea, I cant get along in this world without judging, no one can.
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So you think Jesus was an idiot? Woah.

Have you dedicated your life to the Church? Is the majority of your time spent spreading the word? Why haven't you quit your job, become a priest, work your way up the hierarchy, and die while still working for the Church? Am I correct in recalling that you are not an active Catholic?


Does not mean he should have quit. Maybe he should have tried harder.
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What it means is that the nature of your objection has profoundly changed.

I have to say, it sounds an awful lot like you just don't like the idea of him retiring, and are looking for excuses to slam him for it. That's not an impressive rhetorical tactic.


Rome reforms had failed, he had been out maneuvered and everyone knew it, including the POPE.
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Again, I see no indication that Benedict XVI believed he was doing a bad job.

Your position also doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would you demand he stay in office, if you believe he was doing a bad job, and/or if he believed he was screwing up? Isn't it more important for the RCC to have the best possible leader?


Does not matter, if he had decided that he could not then anyone coming in had a better chance than he did, was a better bet Frances has done a much better job of handling Rome, and seems more modern, which is a good thing. However, the fact that this POPE leaving was likely better for the Church does not explain why he left when almost no one else does, which is the answer I am after, as well as wanting to touch base with Christians about this whole thing.
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Egads.

Ultimately, Benedict XVI is the only person who can explain why he retired. He discusses it in the forthcoming book. You shall have your answer in about a month.

Overall, it sounds like most Catholics are not put out by the resignation.

Last but not least, Francis has indicated that he does not plan to retire. It could happen, but at least he doesn't intend to do so. So much for the "wuss" argument.
 
So where I am is that this Pope had failed, and for what ever reason (we hope it is because he knew he had failed and also knew that he was not good Enough to overcome and knew that he had a duty to the Church he stepped down to give a better man a chance (or maybe he is a wimp and did not want to sit in that chair looking at his failure year after year)), and almost everyone is happy with that because whether we will admit it or not we all think he that failed as POPE.

Now we wait to see if he gets honest before he kicks.

Maybe a bit harsh but I dont think so.
 
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