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Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

Funny how the book of Enoch, a book rejected by the cannon, speaks against using the writen word to base your faith on, no?

I have been accuse a couple times in this thread of the Bible being the bases of my faith. This is such a back wards assumption by anyone.

I have faith in God, not a book. The Bible is a guide to our spiritual salvation, not a God.
 
I have been accuse a couple times in this thread of the Bible being the bases of my faith.

I accused you of no such thing. I said it was perfectly reasonable for people to believe in a God, but it is willful ignorance to believe that the Bible is the infallible word of said God.
 
This is factually incorrect. Some Roman emperors married men. Roman emperor Elagabalus married a man.

During his rule, Elagabalus showed a disregard for Roman religious traditions and sexual taboos. He replaced the traditional head of the Roman pantheon, Jupiter, with a lesser god, Deus Sol Invictus, and forced leading members of Rome's government to participate in religious rites celebrating this deity, which he personally led. Elagabalus was married as many as five times, lavished favors on courtiers popularly assumed to have been his homosexual lovers, and was reported to have prostituted himself in the imperial palace. His reputed behaviour infuriated the Praetorian Guard, the Senate and the common people alike.

Amidst growing opposition, Elagabalus, only 18 years old, was assassinated and replaced by his cousin Alexander Severus on March 11, 222, in a plot formed by his grandmother, Julia Maesa, and disgruntled members of the Praetorian Guard. Elagabalus developed a reputation among his contemporaries for extreme eccentricity, decadence, and zealotry which was likely exaggerated by his successors and political rivals.[2] This likely propaganda was passed on and, as a result, he was one of the most reviled Roman emperors to early historians. For example, Edward Gibbon wrote that Elagabalus "abandoned himself to the grossest pleasures and ungoverned fury."[3] "The name Elagabalus is branded in history above all others" because of his "unspeakably disgusting life," wrote B.G. Niebuhr.[4]


What a great example for gay people to follow.
 
The difference is Blacks are born that way and can not change it that is not true for Gays

Blacks are not born atracted to another race. Blacks are not born atracted to the same race.

It's worth pointing out, however, that mixed marriages are at a higher risk of divorcing, just like mixed-religion marriages.
 
I accused you of no such thing. I said it was perfectly reasonable for people to believe in a God, but it is willful ignorance to believe that the Bible is the infallible word of said God.

Ummmm... I was not talking about you. I did not name anyone, they know who they are. :roll:
 
What a great example for gay people to follow.

And I'm sure the "convert or die" policy initiated by Emperor Constantine is a great example for Christians to follow.

The point is that same sex marriage has existed throughout history. Its not a brand new invention.
 
And I'm sure the "convert or die" policy initiated by Emperor Constantine is a great example for Christians to follow.

I am not throwing him out as an example of anything either. Nice fallacy buddy.

Besides you know as well as I that the Bible does not teach that.

The point is that same sex marriage has existed throughout history. Its not a brand new invention.

He was the only one as far as I know, and they killed him. Not to mention the Praetorian Guard and people thought he was disgusting. What does that tell you? This is Rome no less.
 
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Blacks are not born atracted to another race. Blacks are not born atracted to the same race.

It's worth pointing out, however, that mixed marriages are at a higher risk of divorcing, just like mixed-religion marriages.

That has more to do with outside social pressure I would think.
 
Besides you know as well as I that the Bible does not teach that.

It depends on which part of the Bible you are reading.

He was the only one and they killed him, not to mention the Praetorian Guard thought he was disgusting. What does that tell you? This is Rome no less.

Nero also married a man. Stop pretending that you know what you are talking about. There is a long history of recorded same-sex unions around the world and at times, same sex unions were socially recognized in Greece and Rome.
 
That has more to do with outside social pressure I would think.

Conflicting ethnic cultures within the family, both extended and the personal outlook of the indiviguals married.

Same thing with mixed-religion marriages: conflicting fundimental outlooks on the world.
 
Conflicting ethnic cultures within the family, both extended and the personal outlook of the indiviguals married.

Same thing with mixed-religion marriages: conflicting fundimental outlooks on the world.

That makes sense.
 
It depends on which part of the Bible you are reading.

No. It would depend if you are an anchient Isrealite or not. :roll:

Nero also married a man. Stop pretending that you know what you are talking about. There is a long history of recorded same-sex unions around the world and at times, same sex unions were socially recognized in Greece and Rome.

The guy who let Rome burn, lol. Nothing unstable about him.

I don't care about the "Unions" They did not recognize them as marriage in most cases.

Now tell me who is clueless here? :lol:

I mean it's not like you are thin skinned or anything...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...elieve-being-gay-wrong-53.html#post1059098078
 
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I don't care about the "Unions" They did not recognize them as marriage in most cases.

Some did and some didn't. Once again, stop trying to talk about things that you are clearly ignorant about. As I said, the point is that gay marriage is not a new idea. Constantine specifically outlawed it and made it punishable by death, another example of Christian compassion in practice.
 
Some did and some didn't. Once again, stop trying to talk about things that you are clearly ignorant about.

My statement is a statement of fact, and you say I am clearly ignorant?

As I said, the point is that gay marriage is not a new idea.

A very low percentage by most of those society's standards ancient and modern. Want to deny that as well?

Constantine specifically outlawed it and made it punishable by death, another example of Christian compassion in practice.

More fallacy. You brought him up, not me. :lol:
 
My statement is a statement of fact, and you say I am clearly ignorant?

What fact? You haven't provided a single bit of evidence that same sex unions were not at times treated the same as marriages in Rome and Greece. You simply made an uninformed assertion.

A very low percentage by most of those society's standards ancient and modern. Want to deny that as well?

How can I deny that when only a small percentage of any population is gay?

More fallacy. You brought him up, not me. :lol:

Ah, is the widdle Christian ashamed of the emporer who forced the religion on the masses and initated the policy against same sex marriage that has persisted for centuries?
 
DP polls are not scientific.

No, but neither is saying that something is going to happen, despite not having anything to back it up.

Many things can be used to support a position, not all need to be scientific. But when someone can't provide me with anything to support their argument, it doesn't take a whole lot to counter that argument. And the argument was that if SSM becomes legal, then gays will eventually get it so all churches will be forced to marry them. There are several issues with this point, many that have already been brought up prior to me joining in, including the Constitutionality of such an issue. But, my point was that without support, an issue will go nowhere. DP does have a fairly mixed opinion set and has some openly gay members. The poll may only show what people are claiming they support, but it is much more than what the other side of the argument has.
 
No, but neither is saying that something is going to happen, despite not having anything to back it up.

Many things can be used to support a position, not all need to be scientific. But when someone can't provide me with anything to support their argument, it doesn't take a whole lot to counter that argument. And the argument was that if SSM becomes legal, then gays will eventually get it so all churches will be forced to marry them. There are several issues with this point, many that have already been brought up prior to me joining in, including the Constitutionality of such an issue. But, my point was that without support, an issue will go nowhere. DP does have a fairly mixed opinion set and has some openly gay members. The poll may only show what people are claiming they support, but it is much more than what the other side of the argument has.

I imagine southern folks were worried that if Blacks were allowed to marry whites that all churches would be forced to marry mixed couples. We know that
s not the case today. In fact churches reserve the right not to marry any couple they don't want to, and even make a marriage service conditional upon pre-marital counseling, etc.
 
What fact? You haven't provided a single bit of evidence that same sex unions were not at times treated the same as marriages in Rome and Greece. You simply made an uninformed assertion.

Marriages in ancient Greece were arranged by the parents of the intended bride and groom. A financial arrangement was made between the families in the form of a dowry. Girls married between the ages of fourteen to eighteen, while typically men married in their twenties or even thirties. Spartan men continued to live in the barracks, even after the wedding, until they reached the age of thirty when they could move home with their wives. - Marriages in Ancient Greece

Some early Western societies integrated same-sex relationships. The practice of same-sex love in ancient Greece often took the form of pederasty, which was limited in duration and in many cases co-existed with traditional marriage.[5] Documented cases in this region claimed these unions were temporary pederastic relationships.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12] These unions created a moral dilemma for the Greeks and were not universally accepted.[13] There may[14] have been, at least among the Romans, marriage between men as evidenced by emperors Nero[15] and Elagabalus who married men, and by its outlaw in 342 AD in the Theodosian Code,[16] but the exact intent of the law and its relation to social practice is unclear, as only a few examples of same-sex marriage in that culture exist.[17]

In Hellenic Greece, the pederastic relationships between Greek men (erastes) and youths (eromenos) were similar to marriage in that the age of the youth was similar to the age at which women married (the mid-teens, though in some city states, as young as age seven), and the relationship could only be undertaken with the consent of the father.[citation needed] This consent, just as in the case of a daughter's marriage, was contingent on the suitor's social standing. The relationship consisted of very specific social and religious responsibilities and also had a sexual component. Unlike marriage, however, a pederastic relation was temporary and ended when the boy turned seventeen.

At the same time, many of these relationships might be more clearly understood as mentoring relationships between adult men and young boys rather than an analog of marriage. This is particularly true in the case of Sparta, where the relationship was intended to further a young boy's military training. While the relationship was generally life long and of profound emotional significance to the participants, it was not considered marriage by contemporary culture and the relationship continued even after participants entered into traditional marriage to women as was expected in the culture when men reached age 30.
- History of same-sex unions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Need anything else?

How can I deny that when only a small percentage of any population is gay?

Exactly. You can't.

Ah, is the widdle Christian ashamed of the emporer who forced the religion on the masses and initated the policy against same sex marriage that has persisted for centuries?

Why would I be ashamed? Evil in any form can be perpetrated by anyone, Christian and non Christian alike. In fact more people have died in the name of humanism in modern times.

Other than what I motioned, you have no point really. I mean it has absolutely nothing to do with my position or anything I have said at all. ;)

The fact is the Bible does not support or condone such methods, and this has nothing at all to do with the outlawing of gay unions as far as your argument goes. More fallacy. :2wave:
 
Marriages in ancient Greece were arranged by the parents of the intended bride and groom. A financial arrangement was made between the families in the form of a dowry. Girls married between the ages of fourteen to eighteen, while typically men married in their twenties or even thirties. Spartan men continued to live in the barracks, even after the wedding, until they reached the age of thirty when they could move home with their wives. - Marriages in Ancient Greece

Some early Western societies integrated same-sex relationships. The practice of same-sex love in ancient Greece often took the form of pederasty, which was limited in duration and in many cases co-existed with traditional marriage.[5] Documented cases in this region claimed these unions were temporary pederastic relationships.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12] These unions created a moral dilemma for the Greeks and were not universally accepted.[13] There may[14] have been, at least among the Romans, marriage between men as evidenced by emperors Nero[15] and Elagabalus who married men, and by its outlaw in 342 AD in the Theodosian Code,[16] but the exact intent of the law and its relation to social practice is unclear, as only a few examples of same-sex marriage in that culture exist.[17]

In Hellenic Greece, the pederastic relationships between Greek men (erastes) and youths (eromenos) were similar to marriage in that the age of the youth was similar to the age at which women married (the mid-teens, though in some city states, as young as age seven), and the relationship could only be undertaken with the consent of the father.[citation needed] This consent, just as in the case of a daughter's marriage, was contingent on the suitor's social standing. The relationship consisted of very specific social and religious responsibilities and also had a sexual component. Unlike marriage, however, a pederastic relation was temporary and ended when the boy turned seventeen.

At the same time, many of these relationships might be more clearly understood as mentoring relationships between adult men and young boys rather than an analog of marriage. This is particularly true in the case of Sparta, where the relationship was intended to further a young boy's military training. While the relationship was generally life long and of profound emotional significance to the participants, it was not considered marriage by contemporary culture and the relationship continued even after participants entered into traditional marriage to women as was expected in the culture when men reached age 30.
- History of same-sex unions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Need anything else?



Exactly. You can't.



Why would I be ashamed? Evil in any form can be perpetrated by anyone, Christian and non Christian alike. In fact more people have died in the name of humanism in modern times.

Other than what I motioned, you have no point really. I mean it has absolutely nothing to do with my position or anything I have said at all. ;)

The fact is the Bible does not support or condone such methods, and this has nothing at all to do with the outlawing of gay unions as far as your argument goes. More fallacy. :2wave:

Seriously your response is a crappy website with no references and Wikipedia?

I like how you left out this part...

Various types of same-sex unions have existed, ranging from informal, unsanctioned relationships to highly ritualized unions. It is believed that same-sex union was a socially recognized institution at times in Ancient Greece and Rome,[2] some regions of China, such as Fujian, and at certain times in ancient European history.[3] These gay marriages continued until Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.
 
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Seriously your response is a crappy website with no references and Wikipedia?

Would you like me to put up an extensive list of sites that say exactly the same thing? :mrgreen:

Or how about the reading list from the articles?

I like how you left out this part...

Various types of same-sex unions have existed, ranging from informal, unsanctioned relationships to highly ritualized unions. It is believed that same-sex union was a socially recognized institution at times in Ancient Greece and Rome,[2] some regions of China, such as Fujian, and at certain times in ancient European history.[3] These gay marriages continued until Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

No need too. The part in red sums it up. No evidence really supports this as the article already stated. It is a guess not backed up by any surviving records most importantly among the Greeks.

Just like this part I left out...

However in none of these same sex unions is the Greek word for "marriage" ever mentioned.The Romans appear to have been the first to perform same sex marriages.

Which is funny as it is preceded by your entry marked in red. So we know the author was using the term marriage to represent union as well.

It is exactly as I said. They were not wide spread and most were not recognized as a marriage.

You can twist and dodge, rant etc like you always do. In the end as usual you still loose. :lol:
 
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You can twist and dodge, rant etc like you always do. In the end as usual you still loose. :lol:

Ooookay. The Romans were the first to conduct marriages by name. Your point?

In case you forgot, my point was that same sex marriage has existed for a long time. You are the one trying to qualify that they were not widely accepted, common, or widespread. Given that gays and bisexuals account for 5% of any given population, that is to be expected. Gays represented a minority, which in ancient times meant they were doing pretty good if they weren't all eradicated by the majority and that they were doing extraordinarily well if they were getting some legal recognition.
 
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Ooookay. The Romans were the first to conduct marriages by name. Your point?

CriticalThought, I actually enjoy arguing with you but you get so defensive. I know I am a smart ass and insult your intelligence at times, but I honestly do not think you are stupid, just a little high strung.

My point was directed to your comments here:

And I'm sure the "convert or die" policy initiated by Emperor Constantine is a great example for Christians to follow.

The point is that same sex marriage has existed throughout history. Its not a brand new invention.


The Constantine thing had nothing to do with what we were talking about.

I also did not out and out disagree with your second statement. It was this:

There is a long history of recorded same-sex unions around the world and at times, same sex unions were socially recognized in Greece and Rome.

There is not a long history of recorded same sex unions. As I said the majority of them in Rome and all in ancient Greece were not recognized by the government.

Then your reply basicly said I was ignorant.

This is not a competition my man. We know gay people make up very small percentages of populations. So logic would dictate it was not that big a happening. Unless like you showed it was an emperor.
 
In case you forgot, my point was that same sex marriage has existed for a long time. You are the one trying to qualify that they were not widely accepted, common, or widespread. Given that gays and bisexuals account for 5% of any given population, that is to be expected. Gays represented a minority, which in ancient times meant they were doing pretty good if they weren't all eradicated by the majority and that they were doing extraordinarily well if they were getting some legal recognition.

See what happens when you are calm cool and collected? We actually said the same thing.

Edit: In not so many words, lol.
 
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There is not a long history of recorded same sex unions. As I said the majority of them in Rome and all in ancient Greece were not recognized by the government.

Oooookay. You gotta stop making unsubstantiated claims. First off, there is long history of same sex unions. They have been occurring since ancient times, that means there is a long history. They have also occurred in many parts of the world, and that means they have been widespread.

Second, just because Greece did not call such unions "marriage" does not mean they were not recognized by the government.

Third, just because Rome first started calling such unions "marriage" does not mean a majority of them occurred in Rome. Same sex marriages occurred in all sorts of places before Christinatiy invaded and with varying degrees of acceptance.

In 1552, Francisco Lopez de Gomara reported in History of the Indies that men were marrying other men.

In 1569, Friar Gaspar de Cruz claimed natural disasters in China were God’s punishment for its people's acceptance of same-sex marriages.

In 1576, it was reported in History of the Province of Santa Cruz describes indigenous women in Brazil who formed lesbian marriages.

In the 1600s, the Poet Li Yu wrote about same-sex marriage ceremonies in Fujian and southern China.

And on and on.

Christianity has been at war with same sex marriage since the 3rd century and in just about every part of the world.
 
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