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Dear Atheists

Consumer goods increase standards of living FALSE, pursuit of profits increase production FALSE and R&D in such fields as food and medicine. FALSE Etc.

Anyways I dont know of any diseases the private sector has eliminated. Consumer goods do not increase the standard of living, medicine, housing, and education do, all provided by government. Pursuit of profits may increase production but this firstly does not take into account the consequences of production. But anyways, im drunk, more head-butting for later.
 
Anyways I dont know of any diseases the private sector has eliminated.

What? Vaccines are created by the private sector.

Consumer goods do not increase the standard of living,

Really? Automobiles, refrigerators, light bulbs, air conditioners, etc etc et al don't improve the standards of living? FTW?

medicine, housing, and education do, all provided by government.

Two out of three of those things are not provided by the government, but even if they were the source of these things is not at issue.
 
You are missing the point. Subjective mystical or ineffable experiences do not leave physical evidence behind for scrutiny by others. The evidence lies in the transformative power of the experience and the way it affects the individual.



You could consider me a Buddhist. You could also consider me a Christian, A Hindu and a Sufi. If you're searching for a specific label, the best would be to describe my beliefs as Devotional Nonduality.

As for Buddhism rejecting materialism, it is simply not the case. Buddhist monks usually renounce materialism as it is a formidable attachment to be transcended. Life is much simpler when you do not have to worry about maintaining a car or having a profession. Instead, they live in monasteries and take up certain duties for the benefit of the entire monastic community. But there are lay Buddhists who have jobs and plenty of material wealth. Each person takes their own vows and makes their own commitments in the Buddhist faith. Some take more than others. The Dalai Lama has hundreds of vows that he has taken.

Buddhism teaches that in order to achieve Nirvana you must renounce materialism entirely.
 
Buddhism teaches that in order to achieve Nirvana you must renounce materialism entirely.

Having studied and practiced Zen, Vajrayana(Diamond Vehicle) and Dzogchen Buddhism, I can certainly tell you that is not the case. One could be enlightened and also be a millionaire. This does not happen too often because when the physical realm is transcended, a paradigm shift occurs. Goals, desires and perspective change to accomodate this spiritual awakening. Those who dwell in Nirvana know the Infinite Peace and Bliss that can be found in life. As such, their focus shifts from worldy accomplishments to spiritual accomplishment and integration.
 
Religion (no matter what you believe, how devotional you are, or whatever) depends on the belief in spiritualism. That there is another realm of gods and souls, apart from the material world of atoms and energy, that is only accessible by dying, with no evidence to support that claim. It can be just as easily "imagined" that there is a realm of monsters and magic that is only accessible by magic.

Religion/Spirituality attempts to explain things (it's basically a theory) we can't immediately explain with observation. To assume it's correct without being discussed or tested is ludicrous. And just because it can't be tested with experimentation doesn't mean it can never be nor is it proof that it exists. It holds just as much weight as all the non-spiritual explanations that attempt to explain something that can't be tested yet.

What's the point of a soul when all I'm being is a faulty copy of myself?
-VETO
 
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Why would a "GOD" be the creator of all beings but only make himself known to a certain group of people and call them his Chosen People and then expect the rest of his beings to learn of his existence from the Chosen Ones? Of course, the ones that are not the Chosen Ones would become jealous and go on the create their own denominations in which the Chosen Ones are not the Chosen Ones and their beliefs are correct and not the Chosen Ones.

Wouldn't it have been more Godly of GOD to just make himself known to all and not let his imperfect, jealous creations go around spreading the word of his existence (and killing or enslaving those that refused)?
 
Why would a "GOD" be the creator of all beings but only make himself known to a certain group of people and call them his Chosen People and then expect the rest of his beings to learn of his existence from the Chosen Ones? Of course, the ones that are not the Chosen Ones would become jealous and go on the create their own denominations in which the Chosen Ones are not the Chosen Ones and their beliefs are correct and not the Chosen Ones.

Wouldn't it have been more Godly of GOD to just make himself known to all and not let his imperfect, jealous creations go around spreading the word of his existence (and killing or enslaving those that refused)?

What if God had a plan? And why do you think that in God's eyes physical death is relevant? You assume that the reality most people experience on a daily basis is valuable. God gave us the gift of Free Will. Some people use that gift to devote their life to God, while most do not. We all live and pay for our own sins. In our minds, we are our own Judge, Jury and Executioner.
 
What if God had a plan?
Well, first I'd have to assume that God exists. I don't. So I'm not trying to question any God's plan, but rather I'm trying to point out the inconsitencies of what people (the only source of a knowledge of a God) describe God to be. All views can't be right, but they can all be wrong.

And why do you think that in God's eyes physical death is relevant?
Death would be a creation of God. Why would it not be relavent?

You assume that the reality most people experience on a daily basis is valuable.
And you don't? You aren't assuming that the reality of Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed, is valuable? If you believe in a God then you assume that what they expierienced is valuable. After all it is their experiences that are the foundation of today's monotheistic religions. Why would their experiences hold more value than someone else's? Because we can't prove that any one of them wasn't 1. Insane, 2. On Drugs, or 3. Lying, because they lived so long ago, is not reason to hold their experiences more valuable than the guy on the street corner with a sign saying "The Second Coming is at Hand". I don't assume that an expierience is valuable, which is why I don't believe in any Supreme Being based in religion.

God gave us the gift of Free Will. Some people use that gift to devote their life to God, while most do not.
Again, that's assuming that god exists to give us Free Will. And why do you think that in God's eyes free will is relevant?

We all live and pay for our own sins. In our minds, we are our own Judge, Jury and Executioner.
I agree to an extent. Most of us have a consciouss, which I assume you're refering to, but sociopaths do not. Most of us don't need laws, commandments, or whatever, to tell us to do the right thing. Some do. But those are a very small minority. It's instinctive for our species (one of the most sociable ever to exist (that we know of)) to be sociable. It's not the laws or will of God that make us this way.
 
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If you're "strong enough" you STAY and [can] defend what you say.
Indeed, anyone who can make an absurd/insane/inane statement and 'walk'.

Anyone can, but that doesn't prove that anyone did.
 
Well, first I'd have to assume that God exists. I don't.
There's no need to assume anything. God is a choice. And why is the "assumption" that God exists any less valid than other assumptions you've chosen to overlook(I.E. Believing you exist, what is percieved is "reality", etc.)?

So I'm not trying to question any God's plan, but rather I'm trying to point out the inconsitencies of what people (the only source of a knowledge of a God) describe God to be. All views can't be right, but they can all be wrong.
Right and wrong are judgements. Anything can be "right" or "wrong" to anyone in any different viewpoint. It's a subjective rating scale and nothing more.


Death would be a creation of God. Why would it not be relavent?
On the level of the Absolute, nothing lives or dies. All is One. Humans view death much differently than God would.


And you don't? You aren't assuming that the reality of Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed, is valuable? If you believe in a God then you assume that what they expierienced is valuable. After all it is their experiences that are the foundation of today's monotheistic religions. Why would their experiences hold more value than someone else's? Because we can't prove that any one of them wasn't 1. Insane, 2. On Drugs, or 3. Lying, because they lived so long ago, is not reason to hold their experiences more valuable than the guy on the street corner with a sign saying "The Second Coming is at Hand". I don't assume that an expierience is valuable, which is why I don't believe in any Supreme Being based in religion.
No assumptions, only decisions. I decide to believe in God. I decide what resonates with the deepest part of my being and I have chosen to walk a path of discovery through God. Once I made the decision, life has never been the same. Thus, my faith has been subjectively validated.


Again, that's assuming that god exists to give us Free Will. And why do you think that in God's eyes free will is relevant?
Free Will is a concept describing volition to shape our life experience. I have the power to make a choice. This helps my ego retain some semblance of control. On the other hand, since God is omnipresent and permeates everything, one could say you and I are the same thing at the core of our being. So free will is important to humans, but a given to God(as sole creator).


I agree to an extent. Most of us have a consciouss, which I assume you're refering to, but sociopaths do not. Most of us don't need laws, commandments, or whatever, to tell us to do the right thing. Some do. But those are a very small minority. It's instinctive for our species (one of the most sociable ever to exist (that we know of)) to be sociable. It's not the laws or will of God that make us this way.
What I mean is that we make decisions and deal with the ramifications. If I kill someone, there is nothing inherently "wrong" or "bad" about that. Death is part of the process of life. However, I would have to live with the guilt, anger, self-loathing and life in prison that goes along with that decision.
 
Well, first I'd have to assume that God exists. I don't. So I'm not trying to question any God's plan, but rather I'm trying to point out the inconsitencies of what people (the only source of a knowledge of a God) describe God to be. All views can't be right, but they can all be wrong.


Death would be a creation of God. Why would it not be relavent?


And you don't? You aren't assuming that the reality of Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed, is valuable? If you believe in a God then you assume that what they expierienced is valuable. After all it is their experiences that are the foundation of today's monotheistic religions. Why would their experiences hold more value than someone else's? Because we can't prove that any one of them wasn't 1. Insane, 2. On Drugs, or 3. Lying, because they lived so long ago, is not reason to hold their experiences more valuable than the guy on the street corner with a sign saying "The Second Coming is at Hand". I don't assume that an expierience is valuable, which is why I don't believe in any Supreme Being based in religion.


Again, that's assuming that god exists to give us Free Will. And why do you think that in God's eyes free will is relevant?


I agree to an extent. Most of us have a consciouss, which I assume you're refering to, but sociopaths do not. Most of us don't need laws, commandments, or whatever, to tell us to do the right thing. Some do. But those are a very small minority. It's instinctive for our species (one of the most sociable ever to exist (that we know of)) to be sociable. It's not the laws or will of God that make us this way.

I know of nothing in the Bible that disagrees with this statement.
 
There's no need to assume anything. God is a choice. And why is the "assumption" that God exists any less valid than other assumptions you've chosen to overlook(I.E. Believing you exist, what is percieved is "reality", etc.)?
OKay. God is a choice. But have you asked yourself if you really had a choice? I was raised in a Baptist home. When I was a teen I was "saved" and baptised. I even threw away all my Dungeons & Dragons stuff.:doh
As I got older, I began to really get into science and history. I had always loved Astronomy ever since I saw Star Wars in 1977. I began to question what I had been taught about reality. I began to ask questions about God and the only answers I got where "God has a plan" and "God is testing your faith". When those answers still lead to more questions such as "Why would God create us as curious, imaginative creatures only for use to receive an answer that you have to have faith". Again, these answers are coming from people, not God himself. People who are sinful, jealous, imperfect (according to the bible). It just doesn't sound logical, which is the way God made us (well most of us).
So basically, I have considered many possibilities, both spiritual and non. I'm not saying there is not intelligent design. When it comes to that, I'm agnostic. But, IMO, the evidence works against the existence of a God that wants to be prayed too, interferes in our daily lives, or will allow me to burn in hell for not believing in him.
I have explored many non-spiritual possibilities as well, such as the anthropic principle (one of my favorites), that this is all a computer simulation, that we're evolutionary experiments, etc.
The point of the last several paragraphs is that you (and your beliefs) are molded by your environment. If no one ever proposed the idea of a God as I described in the last paragraph, then do you really think that you would have made the "choice" you made?

Right and wrong are judgements. Anything can be "right" or "wrong" to anyone in any different viewpoint. It's a subjective rating scale and nothing more.
Yes, I agree. Good and Evil/Right and Wrong are subjective and not based on God vs. Satan. But I still stress that most of us do the "Right" thing simply based on the fact that it's part of our species survival strategy.

On the level of the Absolute, nothing lives or dies. All is One. Humans view death much differently than God would.
I can agree with this as it supports the law of conservation of matter and energy. However, it doesn't explain what happens to the most important part of "us", our consciousness or individuality. This is not made of matter or energy. This is the sum total of all the cells and electrical signals in our body, which ceases to exist when our body fails. It's not that we can never understand what happens to "us" when we die, I think we eventually can. It's the fear of the unknown that causes our imagination to go wild. If we knew what actually happens, then we would view death as a god would.



No assumptions, only decisions. I decide to believe in God. I decide what resonates with the deepest part of my being and I have chosen to walk a path of discovery through God. Once I made the decision, life has never been the same. Thus, my faith has been subjectively validated.
I'm not sure I get the last part. Are you saying that your life changed after making your choice and therefore that is proof that you made the right decision? Well, I as I described previously, my life changed when I was "saved" I brought my bible to school, I joined the "Teens for Christ" group in my school, threw my D&D stuff away, etc. However, I learned that I made the wrong choice. My life changed again. as anyone's would when making a major "choice" about how you view the universe and your place in it. So your life changing is not proof that you made the right "choice". It's merely the results of your actions and choices you make.

Free Will is a concept describing volition to shape our life experience. I have the power to make a choice. This helps my ego retain some semblance of control. On the other hand, since God is omnipresent and permeates everything, one could say you and I are the same thing at the core of our being. So free will is important to humans, but a given to God(as sole creator).
Well, IMO, I'm still not quite sure we have "free will", whether it was given to us by an intelligent creator or our genes. I do know that we can't have "free will" AND an omnipotent creator with a plan. If his plan is so good that it accounts for every free willed choice made through history, then it's not really free will. This is one of the many inconsistencies with an omnipotent god that interferes with our lives and having free will. Again, these are all answers from people, not God himself.

What I mean is that we make decisions and deal with the ramifications. If I kill someone, there is nothing inherently "wrong" or "bad" about that. Death is part of the process of life. However, I would have to live with the guilt, anger, self-loathing and life in prison that goes along with that decision.
Well, if you're a sociopath, then no, you wouldn't see anything "wrong" with it, nor would you suffer guilt, though you would hopefully be in prison. I'm sure the victim would feel differently. Did God make a mistake when he created this poor "soul". Or as you have said that we are all part of a whole, does this mean that God is also a sociopath? More inconsistencies.
 
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OKay. God is a choice. But have you asked yourself if you really had a choice? I was raised in a Baptist home. When I was a teen I was "saved" and baptised. I even threw away all my Dungeons & Dragons stuff.:doh
As I got older, I began to really get into science and history. I had always loved Astronomy ever since I saw Star Wars in 1977. I began to question what I had been taught about reality. I began to ask questions about God and the only answers I got where "God has a plan" and "God is testing your faith". When those answers still lead to more questions such as "Why would God create us as curious, imaginative creatures only for use to receive an answer that you have to have faith". Again, these answers are coming from people, not God himself. People who are sinful, jealous, imperfect (according to the bible). It just doesn't sound logical, which is the way God made us (well most of us).
So basically, I have considered many possibilities, both spiritual and non. I'm not saying there is not intelligent design. When it comes to that, I'm agnostic. But, IMO, the evidence works against the existence of a God that wants to be prayed too, interferes in our daily lives, or will allow me to burn in hell for not believing in him.
I have explored many non-spiritual possibilities as well, such as the anthropic principle (one of my favorites), that this is all a computer simulation, that we're genetic experiments, etc.
The point of the last several paragraphs is that you (and your beliefs) are molded by your environment. If no one ever proposed the idea of a God as I described in the last paragraph, then do you really think that you would have made the "choice" you made?
You seem to assume that the idea of God was simply thrust into me and conditioned over time. I was raised Lutheran. At the age of 15 I became an atheist. Now, at the age of 21, I have much more appreciation and love for God. I made a choice to bring God back into my life, just as you have made the choice to limit God by thinking he can be disproved in the domains of reason, science and logic.

Yes, I agree. Good and Evil/Right and Wrong are subjective and not based on God vs. Satan. But I still stress that most of us do the "Right" thing simply based on the fact that it's part of our species survival strategy.
That would be the case in most people. Most people identify themselves with their body. However, spiritually advanced individuals do not view their body, thoughts, emotions, mentations, positionalities, etc., as being their true Self. Thus, they are not limited by the restrictions of being bound to an ego.


I can agree with this as it supports the law of conservation of matter and energy. However, it doesn't explain what happens to the most important part of "us", our consciousness or individuality. This is not made of matter or energy. This is the sum total of all the cells and electrical signals in our body, which ceases to exist when our body fails. It's not that we can never understand what happens to "us" when we die, I think we eventually can. It's the fear of the unknown that causes our imagination to go wild. If we knew what actually happens, then we would view death as a god would.
The ego is behind any sense of separation. We are like water drops and God is the sea. Once the drops go back into the sea, there is no separation.



I'm not sure I get the last part. Are you saying that your life changed after making your choice and therefore that is proof that you made the right decision? Well, I as I described previously, my life changed when I was "saved" I brought my bible to school, I joined the "Teens for Christ" group in my school, threw my D&D stuff away, etc. However, I learned that I made the wrong choice. My life changed again. as anyone's would when making a major "choice" about how you view the universe and your place in it. So your life changing is not proof that you made the right "choice". It's merely the results of your actions and choices you make.
I know that I made the right choice. I can feel it every day I wake up. Some people seem destined for certain things, and I have found my path. Any subjectively experienced proofs would be lost on you.


Well, IMO, I'm still not quite sure we have "free will", whether it was given to us by an intelligent creator or our genes. I do know that we can't have "free will" AND an omnipotent creator with a plan. If his plan is so good that it accounts for every free willed choice made through history, then it's not really free will. This is one of the many inconsistencies with an omnipotent god that interferes with our lives and having free will. Again, these are all answers from people, not God himself.
Ask God for the answers.

Well, if you're a sociopath, then no, you wouldn't see anything "wrong" with it, nor would you suffer guilt, though you would hopefully be in prison. I'm sure the victim would feel differently. Did God make a mistake when he created this poor "soul". Or as you have said that we are all part of a whole, does this mean that God is also a sociopath? More inconsistencies.
Again, there is no one to kill, no victim/perpetrator. It's as if God was wearing a bunch of masks, you and I being the masks.
 
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You seem to assume that the idea of God was simply thrust into me and conditioned over time. I was raised Lutheran. At the age of 15 I became an atheist. Now, at the age of 21, I have much more appreciation and love for God. I made a choice to bring God back into my life, just as you have made the choice to limit God by thinking he can be disproved in the domains of reason, science and logic.
Right. So reason and logic, given to us by the creator, are not to be used to try to discover reality, but instead something that can't be proven that we actually have or that it was even given to us by a creator, spirituality, should be used. Why program us a certain way, but then require us learn about the programmer in some other way we weren't programmed. Reason and logic are part of our species. Babies use reason to investigate and learn about the world around them. Spirituality doesn't exist for them until they learn about it from another person.
Spirituality is being broken down by science. There was once a time when the sun, moon and planets were thought to be of a spiritual origin. The basic laws of nature were thought to be the work of spirits. As science begins to explain more, the spiritual components disappear.

Science is objective, making use of methods of investigation and proof that are impartial and exacting. Theories are constructed and then tested by experiment. If the results are repeatable and cannot be falsified in any way, they survive. If not, they are discarded. When spiritual beliefs can be falsified then faith supersedes any logic or reason that can be applied. The rules for science are rigidly applied. The standards by which science judges its work are universal. There can be no special pleading in the search for the truth: the aim is simply to discover how nature works and to use that information to enhance our intellectual and physical lives. The logic that directs the search is rational and ineluctable at all times and in all circumstances. This quality of science transcends the differences which in other fields of endeavour (like spirituality) make one period incommensurate with another, or one cultural expression untranslatable in another context. Science knows no contextual limitations. It merely seeks the truth.

That would be the case in most people. Most people identify themselves with their body. However, spiritually advanced individuals do not view their body, thoughts, emotions, mentations, positionalities, etc., as being their true Self. Thus, they are not limited by the restrictions of being bound to an ego.
Yes. That is the case for most people and also animals as it's natural to have a survival instinct. Just because a few "Imaginatively" advanced individual homo sapiens don't share the same instinct really has no effect on the survival on the species as a whole.

The ego is behind any sense of separation. We are like water drops and God is the sea. Once the drops go back into the sea, there is no separation.
Again, why create us into something that we are not. Why create us with a survival instinct and individiality when in reality we are nothing of the sort?

I know that I made the right choice. I can feel it every day I wake up. Some people seem destined for certain things, and I have found my path. Any subjectively experienced proofs would be lost on you.
Right. If all I have to go by is subjectively experienced proofs of imperfect beings to try to find the reason for existence, then I'll gladly take my "God-Given" reason, logic and science any day.
 
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Why would a "GOD" be the creator of all beings but only make himself known to a certain group of people and call them his Chosen People and then expect the rest of his beings to learn of his existence from the Chosen Ones? Of course, the ones that are not the Chosen Ones would become jealous and go on the create their own denominations in which the Chosen Ones are not the Chosen Ones and their beliefs are correct and not the Chosen Ones.

Wouldn't it have been more Godly of GOD to just make himself known to all and not let his imperfect, jealous creations go around spreading the word of his existence (and killing or enslaving those that refused)?

I think this assumes one thing which may be very different. My counter here is what if God reveled himself to everyone and only his Chosen People chose to listen. In your example here this is a possibility.
 
Having studied and practiced Zen, Vajrayana(Diamond Vehicle) and Dzogchen Buddhism, I can certainly tell you that is not the case. One could be enlightened and also be a millionaire. This does not happen too often because when the physical realm is transcended, a paradigm shift occurs. Goals, desires and perspective change to accomodate this spiritual awakening. Those who dwell in Nirvana know the Infinite Peace and Bliss that can be found in life. As such, their focus shifts from worldy accomplishments to spiritual accomplishment and integration.

Um how can you be enlightened under the Buddhist concept without following the 8 fold path which includes complete detatchment to the material world?
 
"Those who serve idols are spritually blind"

If your faith can't stand ridicule, it isn't very strong. Everything that claims power deserves ridicule and it doesn't really matter if it's done in a nice way or not. That touches the heart of freedom, it's vital for our progress, it has brought us were we are today. Anything that tries to curtail that freedom aspires to bring us back to were we were; god fearing idiots who, on average, live 30 years and die of poor teeth.

Respect is nice, but it's not a requirement for obtaining wisdom. Galileo could have been an asshole to the Pope, it would not have proven him wrong. It's the spreading of untruth that justifies the condescending attitude towards religion and it's concept of the supreme.


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=patcondell#p/a/u/1/P4dSiHqpULk
 
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