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Are Christians infallible?

CriticalThought

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I've been asking this a lot lately. See here is my reasoning.

A Christian believes the Bible is infallible.
A Christian believes their particular interpretation of Bible is infallible.
Thus a Christian believes that their actions, which they base on their interpretation of the Bible, are infallible.
Therefore, a Christian is infallible.

Now I know there are some Christians who argue that the Bible isn't infallible, or that their interpretation of the Bible isn't infallible, or that their actions, even when based on their interpretation of the Bible, aren't infallible, but are those people really Christians?

First off, can you really be a Christian if you don't believe the Bible is infallible? If it is full of errors and contradictions, then what is the point of even believing it? And heck, the Bible even says that the Bible is infallible so it must be infallible! If it wasn't infallible, then any faith, such as Islam or Buddhism could be equally as valid.

Next, can you really be a Christian if you don't believe your personal interpretation of the Bible is infallible? There can only be one correct interpretation of the Bible, right? And if your interpretation isn't right, then anyone could be right; like the Mormons, the Baptists, the Methodists, etc. And some of those interpretations argue that you are going to hell if you don't embrace their interpretation.

But really if you are a Christian you can't even call your point of view an "interpretation" since it is the only correct way of looking at the Bible. You know which parts of the Bible need to be interpreted in the context of the time it was written and which parts need to be taken as law today because it is just so obvious.

And of course, you can't really be Christian if you don't live in accordance with what you believe? Your every action must be guided by the infallible truths of your interpretation of the Bible. You would be a Christian in name only if you dared to make the foolish choice to live in any way contrary to what your interpretation of the Bible said.

So Christians must be infallible otherwise they are not Christian. How could anyone who doesn't hold absolute faith that the Bible, their interpretation, and the actions they base on their interpretation, believe they are anything less than infallible?
 
Just damn.

A whole thread dedicated to trolling Christians and removing any doubt that you are poorly named.

You should call yourself “boring”.
 
yes.

no one can fail as long as they define what failure means. to a christian, failure is in not accepting the divinity of jesus. to accept the divinity of jesus is the definition of a christian. so, to not accept the divinity of jesus would be a failure if a christian did it, but not accepting the divinity of jesus defines one as non christian so it is not possible for a christin to fail to accept the divinity of jesus and ....so, christians ARE infallible.

geo.
 
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Just damn.

A whole thread dedicated to trolling Christians and removing any doubt that you are poorly named.

You should call yourself “boring”.

I think it is a legitimate philosophical question. Wake got to start a thread asking if homosexuality is wrong and abnormal, so why can't I start a thread asking if Christians are infallible?
 
I've been asking this a lot lately. See here is my reasoning.

A Christian believes the Bible is infallible.
A Christian believes their particular interpretation of Bible is infallible.
Thus a Christian believes that their actions, which they base on their interpretation of the Bible, are infallible.
Therefore, a Christian is infallible.

Now I know there are some Christians who argue that the Bible isn't infallible, or that their interpretation of the Bible isn't infallible, or that their actions, even when based on their interpretation of the Bible, aren't infallible, but are those people really Christians?

First off, can you really be a Christian if you don't believe the Bible is infallible? If it is full of errors and contradictions, then what is the point of even believing it? And heck, the Bible even says that the Bible is infallible so it must be infallible! If it wasn't infallible, then any faith, such as Islam or Buddhism could be equally as valid.

Next, can you really be a Christian if you don't believe your personal interpretation of the Bible is infallible? There can only be one correct interpretation of the Bible, right? And if your interpretation isn't right, then anyone could be right; like the Mormons, the Baptists, the Methodists, etc. And some of those interpretations argue that you are going to hell if you don't embrace their interpretation.

But really if you are a Christian you can't even call your point of view an "interpretation" since it is the only correct way of looking at the Bible. You know which parts of the Bible need to be interpreted in the context of the time it was written and which parts need to be taken as law today because it is just so obvious.

And of course, you can't really be Christian if you don't live in accordance with what you believe? Your every action must be guided by the infallible truths of your interpretation of the Bible. You would be a Christian in name only if you dared to make the foolish choice to live in any way contrary to what your interpretation of the Bible said.

So Christians must be infallible otherwise they are not Christian. How could anyone who doesn't hold absolute faith that the Bible, their interpretation, and the actions they base on their interpretation, believe they are anything less than infallible?


Your post is so full of assumptions, presumptuousness, and straw-men that there is no point in even trying to discuss it. There's practically no truth in anything you said... I'd hardly know where to begin correcting your errors as they are all but innumerable.

I don't care to play if you're going to start off by utterly (and deliberately) mischaracterizing an entire religion.
 
I guess the answer is, "It depends on who is making the definitions." I think everybody is fallible in their beliefs.
 
yes.

no one can fail as long as they define what failure means. to a christian, failure is to not accept the divinity of jesus. that also happens to be the definition of a christian. so, to not accpet the divinity of christians would be a failure if a christian did it, but not accepting the divininty of jesus defines one as non christian.

so, christians ARE infallible.

geo.

That is kind of what I thought as well, but then Alfons made this point and Wake agreed with him...

...it is impossible to be a true Christian and vote for Abortions, Homosexuality, Adultery, Atheism, Drugs, Socialism, Democrats. There are only CINOs, Christians in Name Only, so-called "fluffy-bunny" politically correct "Christians" who do not follow the Teaching of Holy Bible and reject all Christian values....

So are you arguing that no matter what a Christian says or does, as long as they accept Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior, they are a Christian?
 
Your post is so full of assumptions, presumptuousness, and straw-men that there is no point in even trying to discuss it. There's practically no truth in anything you said... I'd hardly know where to begin correcting your errors as they are all but innumerable.

I don't care to play if you're going to start off by utterly (and deliberately) mischaracterizing an entire religion.

Well then help me out.

Do you believe the Bible is infallible?
Do you believe your interpretation of the Bible is infallible?
Do you believe as long as your actions are guided by your interpretation of the Bible that they are infallible?
 
Well then help me out.

Do you believe the Bible is infallible?
Do you believe your interpretation of the Bible is infallible?
Do you believe as long as your actions are guided by your interpretation of the Bible that they are infallible?

I wonder how one works out the contradiction between an infallible interpretation of the bible by man...and the general consensus that man is imperfect.
 
That is kind of what I thought as well, but then Alfons made this point and Wake agreed with him...



So are you arguing that no matter what a Christian says or does, as long as they accept Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior, they are a Christian?

that is the fundamental premise- anything else is forgivable and so NOT a failure as a christian. . . keeping in mind that this was never established by Jesus of Nazareth.

geo.
 
that is the fundamental premise- anything else is forgivable and so NOT a failure as a christian. . . keeping in mind that this was never established by Jesus of Nazareth.

geo.

That being the case, why would you guess that so many people want to deny equal access to marriage for homosexuals on the basis of biblical teaching?
 
that is the fundamental premise- anything else is forgivable and so NOT a failure as a christian. . . keeping in mind that this was never established by Jesus of Nazareth.

geo.

Interesting. But by that definition you could be Christian and an adulterer or you could be Christian and a practicing homosexual. So in that way, you could be Christian and go against the laws of the Bible and it wouldn't be a failure. Wouldn't that just mean that Christians are infallible in a different way? As long as a Christian accepts Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior all their wrongs will just be forgiven?
 
That being the case, why would you guess that so many people want to deny equal access to marriage for homosexuals on the basis of biblical teaching?

because... we get to interpret the bible as we like... to accept or reject premises as it suits us to do so, except the divinity of jesus and his role as redeemer.

geo.
 
because... we get to interpret the bible as we like... to accept or reject premises as it suits us to do so, except the divinity of jesus and his role as redeemer.

geo.

So it's purely selfish interpretation, forced upon the rest of the populace?
 
Interesting. But by that definition you could be Christian and an adulterer or you could be Christian and a practicing homosexual.
"could be"?
So in that way, you could be Christian and go against the laws of the Bible and it wouldn't be a failure.
you cannot be a literal follower of the teachings of Jesus, no... HE said the law (Torah) is immutable and eternal. But then, chrisitianity is not essentially Jesusian but Paulist... and Paul established the supremacy of contingent qualification when his opinion beat out Peter's on what it meant to be a legitimate follower of Jesus. Baptism as the 'sign' of one's acceptance into faith, rather than circumscision is absolutely a violation of the Law but a fundamental premise of christianity.

Wouldn't that just mean that Christians are infallible in a different way? As long as a Christian accepts Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior all their wrongs will just be forgiven?

yes, exactly. Catholocism has some excluding 'mortal sins', but otherwise, accepting jesus as your savior is definitiively christian and the only absolute requirement for eternal life.

geo.
 
So it's purely selfish interpretation, forced upon the rest of the populace?

yes... and no. some christians simply pick and choose what they will or will not follow. yes, homosexuality is condemned by the bible, but brotherly love is obliged. if you cannot seem to justify one in terms of the other... you toss a coin... or listen to your heart... or your fears. you get to choose.

geo.
 
yes... and no. some christians simply pick and choose what they will or will not follow. yes, homosexuality is condemned by the bible, but brotherly love is obliged. if you cannot seem to justify one in terms of the other... you toss a coin... or listen to your heart... or your fears. you get to choose.

geo.

So, if you get to make choices within your religion, which is a very personal, important part of who you are as a person, why is a homosexual not able to make choices regarding marriage for themselves?
 
Well then help me out.

Briefly, as long as you are reasonable.

Do you believe the Bible is infallible?
I believe God is infallible. I believe the Bible is God's message to his creation. Therefore I believe that everything that is in the Bible is in there for a reason... not always an obvious one. Some things must be studied with great care to be understood. I am not quite a complete literalist... but pretty close to it.

Do you believe your interpretation of the Bible is infallible?
I am human, therefore fallible. If the meaning of a passage of scripture is not fairly obvious, and interpretation is required, then the possibility of human error exists. I appreciate this error-factor with great care and try to always bear it in mind... but I am confident that my "core beliefs" about scripture are pretty much on-target. In brief, there are some things I consider to be easily understood with a minimum of interpretation, and thus have high confidence I have that much "right". There are other things that are difficult to interpret; things that two intellectually honest and sincere Christians could disagree about while both being as devout as they know how to be. I tend to refer to those as "grey areas" or "issues subject to debate."


Do you believe as long as your actions are guided by your interpretation of the Bible that they are infallible?
I am human. Any action I take, even from the highest of motives and the purest of intentions, is subject to going awry for one reason or another.... so, in brief, no. All I can do is try to do right as best I know how. The rest is in God's hands. Fortunately He is quite forgiving.
 
I wonder how one works out the contradiction between an infallible interpretation of the bible by man...and the general consensus that man is imperfect.

This is the precise reason why I have my opinion on the Bible. Man wrote it, and even if it was inspired by God, we are going to screw it up, because that is what we do best. My opinion on the Bible is that it's not a book of these strict rules you have to follow to be a good follower of Christ, it's more a big message that God is love, and love thy neighbor, love your enemy, love yourself, and love God. Hell I could be wrong, but it's what I truly believe, and even if I am wrong, I don't think God would punish me for that, since he knows we are imperfect, and that my heart is in the right place.
 
yes, exactly. Catholocism has some excluding 'mortal sins', but otherwise, accepting jesus as your savior is definitiively christian and the only absolute requirement for eternal life.

How fascinating. When I search for "mortal sins" this is what I find.

-Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-20)
-"know you no that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards nor railers, nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
-The voluntary murder (Genesis 4:10)
-The sin of impurity against nature –Sodomy and homosexual relations (Genesis 18:20)
-Taking advantage of the poor (Exodus 2:23)
-Defrauding the workingman of his wages (James 5:4)

Wow, the Catholic view is quite harsh. I mean, I didn't realize I was going to hell for envying my neighbor's car and for getting drunk on an occasional Saturday night. Even if I was a Christian I would be totally screwed.
 
Briefly, as long as you are reasonable.

I believe God is infallible. I believe the Bible is God's message to his creation. Therefore I believe that everything that is in the Bible is in there for a reason... not always an obvious one. Some things must be studied with great care to be understood. I am not quite a complete literalist... but pretty close to it.

I am human, therefore fallible. If the meaning of a passage of scripture is not fairly obvious, and interpretation is required, then the possibility of human error exists. I appreciate this error-factor with great care and try to always bear it in mind... but I am confident that my "core beliefs" about scripture are pretty much on-target. In brief, there are some things I consider to be easily understood with a minimum of interpretation, and thus have high confidence I have that much "right". There are other things that are difficult to interpret; things that two intellectually honest and sincere Christians could disagree about while both being as devout as they know how to be. I tend to refer to those as "grey areas" or "issues subject to debate."


I am human. Any action I take, even from the highest of motives and the purest of intentions, is subject to going awry for one reason or another.... so, in brief, no. All I can do is try to do right as best I know how. The rest is in God's hands. Fortunately He is quite forgiving.

Interesting Geo says that a practicing adulterer or homosexual could still be a Christian if they accepted Jesus Christ as their lord and personal savior? Do you disagree with his view?
 
Interesting Geo says that a practicing adulterer or homosexual could still be a Christian if they accepted Jesus Christ as their lord and personal savior? Do you disagree with his view?

A Christian is certainly capable of sin. Sin can be forgiven within Jesus' grace. There is, however, a difference between succumbing to temptation once in a while, and living in a continuous and ongoing state of overt sinfulness without any sign of repentance or efforts to change.

Faith is about a level of belief that changes a person. Someone who has truly repented and received God's grace will have a changed heart, and a desire to do right. This does not mean the person is now in a state of sinless perfection... the duality of the Christian, of the war between "flesh and spirit", is much spoken of. However, the soul in Grace finds it hard to abide too long in a state of constant deliberate sin; conviction and repentance tend to soon follow. King David is an interesting example of a man in God's Grace, who sinned to a very extreme degree. He repented and was told "your soul will be spared, but the sword will never depart from your house"... that is, he was forgiven but there were still consequences to his actions.

These views that I hold come from over four decades of life, over three decades of bible study and learning to apply it to my life, and an appreciation of the complex interlocking meaning of many different teachings in scripture... it is not something easily explained in a few "sound bite" verses.

But, you asked and there's your answer.
 
So, if you get to make choices within your religion, which is a very personal, important part of who you are as a person, why is a homosexual not able to make choices regarding marriage for themselves?

well, not every personal decision is accepted by the people who make up the religion. it can be very hard for people to realize that they cannot align their own personal moral convictions with that of the church to which they belong. sometimes, it just means changing denomination, sometimes just changing the church you go to. there is always another one just up the street.

until pretty recently, homosexuals were just out of luck. NO church would accept them or allow as to how they could be christin AND practice homosexuality. i remember watching a jesuit on TV talk about how he would not be condemned for being gay as long as he kept it in his pants, whcih, as a priest, he was obliged to do anyway.... ok for him, i suppose, but, how can anyone justify a god that would do a thing like that to someone? only by deciding that, well, he loves the gay guy anyway and allow him to worship and... hiope for the best, i suppose.


but, of course, if i sound impertinent, it is only because i am impertinent. that people can and do choose for themselves is good. that the days that the Vatican could decide for you or put you to death are long gone is a good thing. if it seems to make it difficult to decide what is and what is not valid within a religion, it is a lot easier for me from outside. i.ft it is good for people, then it is a good choice.

geo.
 
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.2Wow, the Catholic view is quite harsh. I mean, I didn't realize I was going to hell for envying my neighbor's car and for getting drunk on an occasional Saturday night. Even if I was a Christian I would be totally screwed.

well, it is and it isn't. if you die with any of those sins on your account... you have seriously screwed the pooch. but... as long as you are breathing, a quick trip to the confessional, a sincere act of contrition and yer golden. so.. just don't fall under any busses.

geo.
 
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