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Legally punish women for abortion?

SheWolf

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I am not sure if this thread as been started before, I am very curious to know what pro-lifers think about this. If you think abortion is murder and want it outlawed, then shouldn't somebody be legally charged with murder?

And if you say no to legally prosecuting women for murder for an illegal abortion, why?
 
Well duh, if someone truly believed that abortion is the intentional killing of a legally recognized and protected person, then of course they would want the woman to be charged with murder.

Kind of a stupid question if you ask me.

/thread
 
I am not sure if this thread as been started before, I am very curious to know what pro-lifers think about this. If you think abortion is murder and want it outlawed, then shouldn't somebody be legally charged with murder?

And if you say no to legally prosecuting women for murder for an illegal abortion, why?

Abortion will never be outlawed and called murder.

But, just to humor the OP and her question, in the never-to-be-seen fantasy world where abortion would be deemed murder, then it should be treated as any other murder. All the players involved charged and a jury of their peers hear the evidence and decide their fate. Why would it be any other way?
 
Personally, I've always been a bit torn on abortion - while I love the idea of killing babies, I just can't stand the thought of giving women more autonomy. I eventually reached a reasonable compromise, and decided that rather than being pro-choice, I was pro-abortion. The difference should be obvious.

In regards to the overall topic, while I consider abortion to be murder, I don't want it to be a punishable offense.
 
Abortion will never be outlawed and called murder.

But, just to humor the OP and her question, in the never-to-be-seen fantasy world where abortion would be deemed murder, then it should be treated as any other murder. All the players involved charged and a jury of their peers hear the evidence and decide their fate. Why would it be any other way?

It really is a nonsensical OP.

It boils down to "If abortion is murder and someone got an abortion would they be charged with murder?"

I don't think OP thought that one through.
 
I am not sure if this thread as been started before, I am very curious to know what pro-lifers think about this. If you think abortion is murder and want it outlawed, then shouldn't somebody be legally charged with murder?

And if you say no to legally prosecuting women for murder for an illegal abortion, why?

And what if she dies in some foul, back-alley procedure? Is that like God's judgement?
 
It really is a nonsensical OP.

It boils down to "If abortion is murder and someone got an abortion would they be charged with murder?"

I don't think OP thought that one through.
I think the OP is trying to show pro-lifers how utterly insane on principle it is to penalize someone, with the same legal consequences for terminating the development of an embryo, as one would any textbook murder.
 
If guys taking part in causing pregnancies are held responsible, with more consequences, there would be better both sex birth control practiced; thus reducing abortions. And if the morning after pill were made much more available, abortion needs would be even further reduced..

I've always said being pro-choice isn't anti-life. Being smart enough to avoid having to make such dramatic decisions is the aim. And such decisions should be personal.
 
Personally, I've always been a bit torn on abortion ... I eventually reached a reasonable compromise, and decided that rather than being pro-choice, I was pro-abortion. ... I consider abortion to be murder
TORN BY BAD LOGIC, MAYBE? Sounds like you are pro-murder. But that is not a viable option, in terms of societal survival. No culture can survive if anyone in it can freely murder anyone else. And only hypocrites think they can murder freely, without themselves getting freely murdered. Thus the thing we call "right to life" is a pragmatic alternative. Accepting it means that while you cannot freely murder, you can also expect to not be freely murdered.

HOWEVER, for the notion of "right to life" actually work, everyone to which it is expected to apply needs to be able to understand the concept. Since that is a thing impossible for unborn humans, there are two Logical Consequences: (1) They do not qualify as persons and therefore do not have right-to-life, and (2) they can be (partly) freely killed. --not "murdered", since that word only applies to the killing of persons, not the killing of non-persons, mere-animal entities. And I used the word "partly" because while many mere-animal entities can be freely killed, like, say, fish in a stream, the reason for it is, no one is able to claim ownership of those animals. But unborn humans always have owners (their mothers), so it is only them (or those they delegate) who can do "freely killing" of their womb-occupants.
 
I think the OP is trying to show pro-lifers how utterly insane on principle it is to penalize someone, with the same legal consequences for terminating the development of an embryo, as one would any textbook murder.

No the words are quite clear. The OP is comical.
 
TORN BY BAD LOGIC, MAYBE? Sounds like you are pro-murder. But that is not a viable option, in terms of societal survival. No culture can survive if anyone in it can freely murder anyone else. And only hypocrites think they can murder freely, without themselves getting freely murdered. Thus the thing we call "right to life" is a pragmatic alternative. Accepting it means that while you cannot freely murder, you can also expect to not be freely murdered.

HOWEVER, for the notion of "right to life" actually work, everyone to which it is expected to apply needs to be able to understand the concept. Since that is a thing impossible for unborn humans, there are two Logical Consequences: (1) They do not qualify as persons and therefore do not have right-to-life, and (2) they can be (partly) freely killed. --not "murdered", since that word only applies to the killing of persons, not the killing of non-persons, mere-animal entities. And I used the word "partly" because while many mere-animal entities can be freely killed, like, say, fish in a stream, the reason for it is, no one is able to claim ownership of those animals. But unborn humans always have owners (their mothers), so it is only them (or those they delegate) who can do "freely killing" of their womb-occupants.

Of course a society where killing fellow adults is allowed would be incapable of functioning; only a madman would suggest that such a system could function for long at all. That's why still-developing fetuses should be available to use as stress-releasing dummies for those with anger issues. It's only logical, after all. Who knows, perhaps if we allowed troubled teens to torture the unborn, it might release enough pent-up frustration to prevent a school shooting! Alternatively, a post-natal abortion performed on said troubled teens could nip such problems in the bud before they were even problems. A single glance at nations such as Finland reveal the numerous advantages of a society where all the sad people die off; depressed Americans just need a little encouragement, or perhaps mandated euthanasia. I'm open to a variety of options.

Of course, under the legal codes of a pro-abortion society, the females carrying such fragile stress balls would be compensated for the utilization of their property, much in the way the government already pays for the land they confiscate through eminent domain laws. Anything less than that would be politically unpopular, after all, and difficult to sell the public on.
 
I doubt that the courts will let this happen.
 
Well duh, if someone truly believed that abortion is the intentional killing of a legally recognized and protected person, then of course they would want the woman to be charged with murder.

Kind of a stupid question if you ask me.

/thread

Was it ever called murder? The act of abortion was illegal, but I doubt it was ever prosecuted as murder in most civilized countries in the past century.
 
Law and Order FVU: Fetal Victims Unit

Enforcing abortion ban is untenable. And people have been finding way to terminate pregnancy long before medical abortions. Should we charge people with murder when they have unprotected sex and don't get pregnant? Many fertilized embryos never implant into the uterus. What about miscarriages? Every pregnant women must register and get routine forced exams. What happens during miscarriages, how do you prove the woman didn't do it intentionally. Anti abortion people never think

 
Abortion will never be outlawed and called murder.

But, just to humor the OP and her question, in the never-to-be-seen fantasy world where abortion would be deemed murder, then it should be treated as any other murder. All the players involved charged and a jury of their peers hear the evidence and decide their fate. Why would it be any other way?

Actually in the small European Island Country of Malta both the woman and the doctor may be charged with murder in an abortion case. Women serve 18 months to 3years in prison if convicted of having an abortion. Doctors can serve up to 4 years.

​Under the Criminal Code of Malta (Chapter 9 of the Laws of Malta), abortion is prohibited in all circumstances. The person performing the abortion is subject to 18 months’ to three years’ imprisonment, as is a woman who performs an abortion on herself or consents to its performance. A physician, surgeon, obstetrician, or apothecary who performs an abortion is subject to 18 months’ to four years’ imprisonment and lifelong prohibition from exercising his or her profession.

http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/abortion/doc/malta.doc
 
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Actually in the small European Island Country of Malta both the woman and the doctor may be charged with murder in an abortion case. They serve 5 years in prison.

Alrighty. I was talking about the US.
 
I am not sure if this thread as been started before, I am very curious to know what pro-lifers think about this. If you think abortion is murder and want it outlawed, then shouldn't somebody be legally charged with murder?

And if you say no to legally prosecuting women for murder for an illegal abortion, why?

Abortion is obviously NOT murder and I think even pro-lifers recognize that. We used to have laws like punished women for abortion -- back when religions ruled our governments -- might still have some of those laws in backwards Islamic nations -- not really sure, but anyone who equates abortion with murder is slightly off their rocker.

In my humble opinion.
 
Was it ever called murder? The act of abortion was illegal, but I doubt it was ever prosecuted as murder in most civilized countries in the past century.

With the exceptions of the Catholic ruled small countries oh Ireland and Malta.
 
Well duh, if someone truly believed that abortion is the intentional killing of a legally recognized and protected person, then of course they would want the woman to be charged with murder.

Kind of a stupid question if you ask me.

/thread

There are a lot of anti choicers who do not want the woman charged.
 
Abortion will never be outlawed and called murder.

But, just to humor the OP and her question, in the never-to-be-seen fantasy world where abortion would be deemed murder, then it should be treated as any other murder. All the players involved charged and a jury of their peers hear the evidence and decide their fate. Why would it be any other way?

If Roe v Wade were overturned, it would go back to the states, which could happen someday.

In all honesty, I don't think the debate will never end. If it were overturned, we would just start debating different aspects of the issue, and we would be facing a whole new set of problems.

I am asking this question more or less to know what pro lifers want in terms of justice and morality.

I am also interested in hearing people discuss and break down pro life rhetoric in a way I understand. I dont like abortion. It ends a human life. I think its morally wrong. But I don't relate much to this rhetoric of baby killing, it's murder, etc.

I want to know what lifers really think.
 
I think the OP is trying to show pro-lifers how utterly insane on principle it is to penalize someone, with the same legal consequences for terminating the development of an embryo, as one would any textbook murder.

I am trying to understand if pro lifers really want somebody charged and punished for murder. I am not implying they are insane or anything. I am really trying to understand, which is why I also asked if they don't want a murder charge, then why. I am curious to know. I am hoping for a good discussion.
 
I doubt that the courts will let this happen.

My mom works in a hospital and she has already seen the state try to charge women for miscarrying. Usually it's drug related miscarrages, so this isn't very far fetched to think a woman would be charged for obtaining an illegal abortion. Roe v Wade is protecting women at a federal level, but if over turned, the state's would decide. In some states, the legal framework is already there for harming unborn born babies that results in their death.

My mom of course doesn't know how the legal system carries out the charges, but she knows of the charges being filed.
 
Abortion is obviously NOT murder and I think even pro-lifers recognize that. We used to have laws like punished women for abortion -- back when religions ruled our governments -- might still have some of those laws in backwards Islamic nations -- not really sure, but anyone who equates abortion with murder is slightly off their rocker.

In my humble opinion.

So you're pro life?

I know women were charged with crimes before Roe v Wade. Do you think there should be some sort of charge?

I tend to think the whole abortion is murder meme is central to the pro life movement, because of the personhood debate.
 
Was it ever called murder? The act of abortion was illegal, but I doubt it was ever prosecuted as murder in most civilized countries in the past century.

Many posters in this forum have called abortion murder
 
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