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FBI Seizes Thousands of Artifacts from rural Indiana Home

Superfly

Superfly

Salty, defiant, and completely non-compliant.
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FBI seizes thousands of artifacts from rural Ind. home

~snip~ WALDRON, Ind. — FBI agents Wednesday seized "thousands" of cultural artifacts, including American Indian items, from the private collection of a 91-year-old man who had acquired them over the past eight decades. ~snip~

Um - why? What right does the Federal Bureau of Intimidation have to come into this guy's house and take his art? I don't understand. I mean, if he was an international art thief who had the Mona Lisa hidden behind a Thomas Kincaid painting, I'd say "OK," but they gave no indication in the article that that kind of artwork was found.
 
Superfly said:
FBI seizes thousands of artifacts from rural Ind. home

~snip~ WALDRON, Ind. — FBI agents Wednesday seized "thousands" of cultural artifacts, including American Indian items, from the private collection of a 91-year-old man who had acquired them over the past eight decades. ~snip~

Um - why? What right does the Federal Bureau of Intimidation have to come into this guy's house and take his art? I don't understand. I mean, if he was an international art thief who had the Mona Lisa hidden behind a Thomas Kincaid painting, I'd say "OK," but they gave no indication in the article that that kind of artwork was found.
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From your article:

The aim of the investigation is to determine what each artifact is, where it came from and how Miller obtained it, Jones said, to determine whether some of the items might be illegal to possess privately.
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Last I checked it was the FBI's job to enforce the law. Being old is not an excuse. And somehow I kinda doubt the FBI was terribly rough with the old guy.
 
It's a sad fact, but government authorities have been increasingly heavy-handed with taking Indian artifacts from collectors for the past couple of decades, regardless of where you find them. In many public areas now, it's illegal to even look for them on top of the ground.
 
Sounds like the typical "Guilty until proven innocent" practice that is becoming more and more prevalent in this country.
 
In addition, the investigation could result in the "repatriation" of any of the cultural items, Jones said.
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Think this is the most distrubing part of the situation. So if its determined that this man acquired these items legally, would this still be the case? And if so, does the "cultural entity" have to provide compensation?

The man is 91 years old, he likely spent most of his life collecting this stuff. Its one thing if he was buying stolen items, whole other game if they find no evidence the items were not stolen or he got them without the knowledge that they were stolen.
 
azgreg said:
Sounds like the typical "Guilty until proven innocent" practice that is becoming more and more prevalent in this country.
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Probably should read the article:

The Rush County man, Don Miller, has not been arrested or charged.
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So yeah, he is not yet even accused of a crime. Hardly "guilty until proven innocent"...
 
No he hasn't been arrested or charged, but I don't think it's right that they are seizing artifacts that he's been collecting for 80 years. They are seizing it to determine if he broke a law?

That doesn't seem right that they can do that. I understand that there are certain things that are not allowed to own, like moon rocks. But it's not like moon rocks have been laying all over the ground for the last several thousand years. He probably started collecting arrow heads when he was a little boy, and has done so for the rest of his life. I have a neighbor who collects all sorts of artifacts, and she has found a bullet and a piece of a belt buckle from the Civil War. Does she have to worry about stuff like that now? :roll:
 
How dare he collect items from our rightful people.
Glad they got that major lawbreaker. Hope he does life in prison for defiling the memory of such fine peoples as the native Americans.
Another win for the FBI and LE everywhere. (dripping sarcasm)
 
CRUE CAB said:
How dare he collect items from our rightful people.
Glad they got that major lawbreaker. Hope he does life in prison for defiling the memory of such fine peoples as the native Americans.
Another win for the FBI and LE everywhere. (dripping sarcasm)
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Seriously - did anyone ever know that Native Americans were butthurt that we were collecting arrowheads? We were always on the lookout for arrowheads when we were kids, and my grandmother, who was 1/2 Cherokee (her mother was Cherokee) never told us that we shouldn't do it. This is honestly the first I've heard of it. :shrug:
 
Superfly said:
Seriously - did anyone ever know that Native Americans were butthurt that we were collecting arrowheads? We were always on the lookout for arrowheads when we were kids, and my grandmother, who was 1/2 Cherokee (her mother was Cherokee) never told us that we shouldn't do it. This is honestly the first I've heard of it. :shrug:
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The FBI apparently are bored and needed something to do.
 
Redress said:
From your article:



Last I checked it was the FBI's job to enforce the law. Being old is not an excuse. And somehow I kinda doubt the FBI was terribly rough with the old guy.
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According to the fourth amendmen they may not do this without a warrant.

Also according to the fourth the reasons they give are not justifications for issueing a warant.

In fact deternmining what an object is etc seems to violate the fourth amendments requirement that particular item to be siezed must be described in a warrant.

I must be missing the part where the FBI was enforcing the law in this one. The article makes it sound like they are breaking it
 
Superfly said:
FBI seizes thousands of artifacts from rural Ind. home

~snip~ WALDRON, Ind. — FBI agents Wednesday seized "thousands" of cultural artifacts, including American Indian items, from the private collection of a 91-year-old man who had acquired them over the past eight decades. ~snip~

Um - why? What right does the Federal Bureau of Intimidation have to come into this guy's house and take his art? I don't understand. I mean, if he was an international art thief who had the Mona Lisa hidden behind a Thomas Kincaid painting, I'd say "OK," but they gave no indication in the article that that kind of artwork was found.
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Y'all want a big, out of control government. You asked for it, you got it.
 
Soupnazi630 said:
According to the fourth amendmen they may not do this without a warrant.

Also according to the fourth the reasons they give are not justifications for issueing a warant.

In fact deternmining what an object is etc seems to violate the fourth amendments requirement that particular item to be siezed must be described in a warrant.

I must be missing the part where the FBI was enforcing the law in this one. The article makes it sound like they are breaking it
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Amendment smendment, the G is the law. Period. We are all just a knock on the door away from being felons.
 
Seems like somebody with an axe to grind snitched on the old man, poor guy. He is quite old so even if he did acquire everything legitimately he will have probably passed on by the time the FBI finishes perusing through it all. Dont the Feds have more important things to do, like going after murderers and terrorists? :roll:
 
It is illegal to treasure hunt indian artifacts and the fact that this guy has so many is suspicious. Years ago we were camping in an alcove in Utah which was very cool. It had petroglyph's on the back wall and it was a kick to spend a few nights in an ancient dwelling. While digging a fire pit I cut a small piece of what looked like fishing line that I assumed some other camper left there as trash at some point. Turns out it was an alarm to guard against artifact hunters and it wasn't long until a BLM cop showed up. I had some splainin to do.:lol:
 
It would seem to me that the justification for this is more an injustice than the old dude possessing the artifacts to begin with.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
It is illegal to treasure hunt indian artifacts and the fact that this guy has so many is suspicious. Years ago we were camping in an alcove in Utah which was very cool. It had petroglyph's on the back wall and it was a kick to spend a few nights in an ancient dwelling. While digging a fire pit I cut a small piece of what looked like fishing line that I assumed some other camper left there as trash at some point. Turns out it was an alarm to guard against artifact hunters and it wasn't long until a BLM cop showed up. I had some splainin to do.:lol:
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Yet you could rob 20 banks before the FBI made any head way in catching you.
 
Superfly said:
FBI seizes thousands of artifacts from rural Ind. home

~snip~ WALDRON, Ind. — FBI agents Wednesday seized "thousands" of cultural artifacts, including American Indian items, from the private collection of a 91-year-old man who had acquired them over the past eight decades. ~snip~

Um - why? What right does the Federal Bureau of Intimidation have to come into this guy's house and take his art? I don't understand. I mean, if he was an international art thief who had the Mona Lisa hidden behind a Thomas Kincaid painting, I'd say "OK," but they gave no indication in the article that that kind of artwork was found.
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Government loves taking property, it's one of the few things it's really good at.
 
Redress said:
From your article:



Last I checked it was the FBI's job to enforce the law. Being old is not an excuse. And somehow I kinda doubt the FBI was terribly rough with the old guy.
Click to expand...

If they're going to raid the guy's house they better have a damned good idea of whether the stuff is legal or not. Armed 'fact finding' missions on the citizens is wholly unacceptable.
 
Redress said:
From your article:



Last I checked it was the FBI's job to enforce the law. Being old is not an excuse. And somehow I kinda doubt the FBI was terribly rough with the old guy.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a fishing expedition. Would you let the FBI into your house and make you prove where you got each and every item in your house?
 
Superfly said:
No he hasn't been arrested or charged, but I don't think it's right that they are seizing artifacts that he's been collecting for 80 years. They are seizing it to determine if he broke a law?

That doesn't seem right that they can do that. I understand that there are certain things that are not allowed to own, like moon rocks. But it's not like moon rocks have been laying all over the ground for the last several thousand years. He probably started collecting arrow heads when he was a little boy, and has done so for the rest of his life. I have a neighbor who collects all sorts of artifacts, and she has found a bullet and a piece of a belt buckle from the Civil War. Does she have to worry about stuff like that now? :roll:
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Sounds like the FBI will be behind Mike And Frank to see if all those hoarders got the stuff legally.

If you bought something 50 years ago, and even worse from a friend, how can you prove where you got it, when or how?

Yes it is guilty until proven innocent.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
It is illegal to treasure hunt indian artifacts and the fact that this guy has so many is suspicious. Years ago we were camping in an alcove in Utah which was very cool. It had petroglyph's on the back wall and it was a kick to spend a few nights in an ancient dwelling. While digging a fire pit I cut a small piece of what looked like fishing line that I assumed some other camper left there as trash at some point. Turns out it was an alarm to guard against artifact hunters and it wasn't long until a BLM cop showed up. I had some splainin to do.:lol:
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When did that law go into effect?
 
sawyerloggingon said:
It was stolen property. Technically it belongs to the tribe of whatever area it came from.
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Really? How is that determined without the knowledge of how he obtained the item?

Can the same be said for any piece of art from a certain country or dynasty?

Should all Asian art be shipped back to the country of origin?
 
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