• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Investigators reportedly eye 'sabotage' in Malaysian jet disappearance

MaggieD

MaggieD

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,664
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Investigators trying to solve the disappearance of a Malaysia Airlines jetliner are looking at ‘sabotage or hihacking’, after examining military radar data reports suggesting the plane was purposely flown hundreds of miles off course.

Reuters is reporting that analysis of the Malaysia data suggests the Boeing 777, carrying 239 people on board, diverted from its intended northeast route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing and instead flew west, using airline flight paths normally taken to the Middle East and Europe.
This points to the theory that the plane was being flown by the pilots or possibly someone familiar with those routes, according to sources in the Reuters report
external-link.png
.
"What we can say is we are looking at sabotage, with hijack still on the cards," said that source, a senior Malaysian police official.
Further compounding the mystery of what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 were reports late Thursday that investigators were exploring whether someone on the plane may have deliberately disabled two automated communication systems in an attempt to avoid detection.
Click to expand...

This may end up being one of the biggest mysteries of the 21st Century. Not that they don't find the wreckage, but that now it appears there may not be any.

I find it interesting that we're busy patting down gramma and yet don't have live feeds in black boxes. Should we BOLO for an unidentified plane carrying massive explosives headed towards a major city now?

Will posts soon be relegated to the Conspiracy Forum?
 
MaggieD said:
This may end up being one of the biggest mysteries of the 21st Century. Not that they don't find the wreckage, but that now it appears there may not be any.

I find it interesting that we're busy patting down gramma and yet don't have live feeds in black boxes. Should we BOLO for an unidentified plane carrying massive explosives headed towards a major city now?

Will posts soon be relegated to the Conspiracy Forum?
Click to expand...

No, I think the USAF has that covered.
 
Deuce said:
No, I think the USAF has that covered.
Click to expand...

Why? Are we covering the whole world? Or don't we care if it happens somewhere else?

I even doubt we have that covered here in the United States. With the technology available today, once a passenger plane is in control of terrorists on the ground, I'm not so sure they couldn't modify transponders any which way to give false impressions to the ground in the states.
 
That's a chilling scenario.
 
Normally the engines and lots of other bits of the aircraft are sending data back to monitoring systems on the ground all the time.

I'm not an expert on this but I don't get why there is so little data. The one that crashed over the Atlantic a few years ago had loads of telemetry information.
 
Tim the plumber said:
Normally the engines and lots of other bits of the aircraft are sending data back to monitoring systems on the ground all the time.

I'm not an expert on this but I don't get why there is so little data. The one that crashed over the Atlantic a few years ago had loads of telemetry information.
Click to expand...

From what I understand is some of the systems have a service charge to send that money. Airlines don't pay for the service so the info is not captured. Sending and receiving data is relatively expensive for entire airline fleets.
 
It's becoming fairly obvious that this plane was an attempted hijacking. The question is if it was a successful hijacking. Just where would one land a 777 without a trace?

After turning off the last transponder device, they could have turned that plane any direction, but you can't exactly land a plane that size in a rice field.

So if such a conspiracy occurred, what cooperating organization or nation was involved?
 
I think the 777 needs about 2 miles of runway to land, (11,000 feet),
There are a few around that big.
 
Technically I guess pilot suicide is still a hijacking but not in the context we usually apply it. With no debris it, things turned off (transponder) no communication it would seem like someone in control of the plane decided to make it disappear. I haven't heard anyone answer what debris would be likely from a plane hitting the water in a nose dive? Would there be any?

Feel terrible for the families; its one thing to assume they are all dead and then another not to know.


Erod said:
It's becoming fairly obvious that this plane was an attempted hijacking. The question is if it was a successful hijacking. Just where would one land a 777 without a trace?

After turning off the last transponder device, they could have turned that plane any direction, but you can't exactly land a plane that size in a rice field.

So if such a conspiracy occurred, what cooperating organization or nation was involved?
Click to expand...
 
MaggieD said:
Why? Are we covering the whole world? Or don't we care if it happens somewhere else?

I even doubt we have that covered here in the United States. With the technology available today, once a passenger plane is in control of terrorists on the ground, I'm not so sure they couldn't modify transponders any which way to give false impressions to the ground in the states.
Click to expand...

What "false impression" do you think they'd give?

Because I know how air traffic control and transponders work, I can probably tell you whether that's possible.
 
Deuce said:
What "false impression" do you think they'd give?

Because I know how air traffic control and transponders work, I can probably tell you whether that's possible.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure...I just figure anything's possible if you have access to the plane's computers. Does a transponder send a flight number? Could it be made up? Could it be a duplicate of another plane in the air? If you know how they work, then you're the one who can answer your own question with a little explanation for the unwashed ;) ;).
 
Every part of my being says someone knows a LOT more than they are telling about this. Somebody's embarrassed, or there are international implications that are being protected.
 
MaggieD said:
This may end up being one of the biggest mysteries of the 21st Century. Not that they don't find the wreckage, but that now it appears there may not be any.

I find it interesting that we're busy patting down gramma and yet don't have live feeds in black boxes. Should we BOLO for an unidentified plane carrying massive explosives headed towards a major city now?

Will posts soon be relegated to the Conspiracy Forum?
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone has a clue what's happened here and you're right, based on the content of the thread so far, this may end up in the conspiracy bin.

For what it's worth, it wouldn't surprise me if this is one of those case, like the Payne Stewart incident, where air pressure/oxygen in the plane somehow failed and you have a plane flying itself with no people on board alive and it just aimlessly flies until it runs out of gas and plummets, likely into the ocean. Considering the claims of the plane's altered course and flying for 4 to 5 hours after losing ground contact, it's as good a guess as any.
 
CanadaJohn said:
I don't think anyone has a clue what's happened here and you're right, based on the content of the thread so far, this may end up in the conspiracy bin.

For what it's worth, it wouldn't surprise me if this is one of those case, like the Payne Stewart incident, where air pressure/oxygen in the plane somehow failed and you have a plane flying itself with no people on board alive and it just aimlessly flies until it runs out of gas and plummets, likely into the ocean. Considering the claims of the plane's altered course and flying for 4 to 5 hours after losing ground contact, it's as good a guess as any.
Click to expand...

The problem is, they now know that two transponder devices were turned off manually within a few minutes of each other. Can't do that if you're asphyxiated.
 
MaggieD said:
I'm not sure...I just figure anything's possible if you have access to the plane's computers. Does a transponder send a flight number? Could it be made up? Could it be a duplicate of another plane in the air? If you know how they work, then you're the one who can answer your own question with a little explanation for the unwashed ;) ;).
Click to expand...

You don't need to modify a transponder to give a false identity, you just change the code. Transponder codes are assigned dynamically, so a particular aircraft doesn't have a particular code, it will change from day to day. You could duplicate the code from another aircraft that is in-flight, but that would only serve to identify the fake plane faster. "Wait a minute, United 482 is over here headed to Dallas. What's this other guy showing the same code?"

I guess you could spoof the altitude reporting on your transponder to report a false altitude, but that wouldn't accomplish anything. You can't modify a transponder to give a false position, though. They don't actually send their position as electronic data, the radio waves themselves are detected.

There aren't a lot of countries that a 777 can fly into undetected. Not what you would call a stealthy aircraft.
 
Erod said:
The problem is, they now know that two transponder devices were turned off manually within a few minutes of each other. Can't do that if you're asphyxiated.
Click to expand...

How do they know they were manually turned off and not simply a mechanical/electrical malfunction that could be responsible for a number of systems failing but the plane still flying?
 
Deuce said:
You don't need to modify a transponder to give a false identity, you just change the code. Transponder codes are assigned dynamically, so a particular aircraft doesn't have a particular code, it will change from day to day. You could duplicate the code from another aircraft that is in-flight, but that would only serve to identify the fake plane faster. "Wait a minute, United 482 is over here headed to Dallas. What's this other guy showing the same code?"

I guess you could spoof the altitude reporting on your transponder to report a false altitude, but that wouldn't accomplish anything. You can't modify a transponder to give a false position, though. They don't actually send their position as electronic data, the radio waves themselves are detected.

There aren't a lot of countries that a 777 can fly into undetected. Not what you would call a stealthy aircraft.
Click to expand...

I wonder how our air defense monitors commercial and private aircraft. What if a plane just wasn't sending a code? How long would it take air defense to spot it?

That's a great point, though. Where could it land without some other country's governmental cooperation?

Very very weird.
 
CanadaJohn said:
How do they know they were manually turned off and not simply a mechanical/electrical malfunction that could be responsible for a number of systems failing but the plane still flying?
Click to expand...

I'm no expert, but that's what ABC News was reporting last night.
 
MaggieD said:
I wonder how our air defense monitors commercial and private aircraft. What if a plane just wasn't sending a code? How long would it take air defense to spot it?

That's a great point, though. Where could it land without some other country's governmental cooperation?

Very very weird.
Click to expand...

I'll say I'm absolutely no expert either.

There are problems Maggie, as you mention - it's why drug traffickers are able to fly planes at low altitude into countries to drop off drugs without detection. A plane without a transponder, taking off from an uncertified airstrip, and flying a altitudes below those required for radar to detect, can make their way across borders.

Now, getting into a populated area at low altitude would not be an easy task because everyone and their granny would be calling 911 to tell the authorities that a really low flying plane just flew over their house - but by then, it might be too late to do much about it. It's likely that a city like New York has some detection devices in place to pinpoint unauthorized planes coming near them.
 
MaggieD said:
I wonder how our air defense monitors commercial and private aircraft. What if a plane just wasn't sending a code? How long would it take air defense to spot it?
Click to expand...

Without a transponder, your aircraft still shows up as a primary target, meaning the radar on the ground is bouncing off something. Secondary radar interrogates the transponder for identifying the target, obtaining altitude data, and getting a better position fix. Coming up as only a primary target while traveling that fast sticks out like a sore thumb, because something that fast has to be a jet, and why the heck isn't there a transponder? And look, it's headed towards our border. Fighters will be on the way. The lack of transponders would make for a faster response, I expect.

If I were trying to sneak a jet into the US, I'd try to disguise myself as a private flight. Problem is, it's a 777 and not a Gulfstream or a Learjet. The difference is rather noticeable to anyone within visual range, which is going to happen sooner or later. And you'd have to fake a passenger manifest.

That's a great point, though. Where could it land without some other country's governmental cooperation?

Very very weird.
Click to expand...

It's a plane that needs 6000 feet of good concrete to land, closer to 10,000 if you want it to actually take off again. Which is why I'm convinced it didn't land. This is not something you can put down on some drug cartel's dirt strip. There aren't a lot of places that have somewhere to hide a 777 that don't also have a ton of people around.

Fun fact: the engines on this thing are (about) the same diameter as the fuselage of a 737.
 
CanadaJohn said:
I'll say I'm absolutely no expert either.

There are problems Maggie, as you mention - it's why drug traffickers are able to fly planes at low altitude into countries to drop off drugs without detection. A plane without a transponder, taking off from an uncertified airstrip, and flying a altitudes below those required for radar to detect, can make their way across borders.

Now, getting into a populated area at low altitude would not be an easy task because everyone and their granny would be calling 911 to tell the authorities that a really low flying plane just flew over their house - but by then, it might be too late to do much about it. It's likely that a city like New York has some detection devices in place to pinpoint unauthorized planes coming near them.
Click to expand...

If I'm not mistaken, I think many major cities have established no-fly zones. I know Chicago did, after 911. During the NATO summit in Chicago, there was an 18,000-ft no-fly zone established by the FAA within ten nautical miles of downtown Chicago with shoot-down orders in place; and lesser restrictions for further away. No-Fly Zone To Be Enforced By Shoot-To-Kill Order During NATO Summit « CBS Chicago
 
MaggieD said:
If I'm not mistaken, I think many major cities have established no-fly zones. I know Chicago did, after 911. During the NATO summit in Chicago, there was an 18,000-ft no-fly zone established by the FAA within ten nautical miles of downtown Chicago with shoot-down orders in place; and lesser restrictions for further away. No-Fly Zone To Be Enforced By Shoot-To-Kill Order During NATO Summit « CBS Chicago
Click to expand...

True, but this is for "authorized" aircraft that is being tracked by conventional means. Just because it's a designated no fly zone, doesn't mean a terrorist will abide by that designation. It's why I say there must be some other, unconventional or secret means of identifying aircraft entering the airspace or coming their way. But what do I know??
 
CanadaJohn said:
I'll say I'm absolutely no expert either.

There are problems Maggie, as you mention - it's why drug traffickers are able to fly planes at low altitude into countries to drop off drugs without detection. A plane without a transponder, taking off from an uncertified airstrip, and flying a altitudes below those required for radar to detect, can make their way across borders.

Now, getting into a populated area at low altitude would not be an easy task because everyone and their granny would be calling 911 to tell the authorities that a really low flying plane just flew over their house - but by then, it might be too late to do much about it. It's likely that a city like New York has some detection devices in place to pinpoint unauthorized planes coming near them.
Click to expand...

A 777 can't take off from a small, uncertified airstrip without its gear collapsing or smashing into trees, and it can't fly that low for very long before it runs out of fuel. (large jets are incredibly inefficient at low altitudes)

And something that big is very, very easy to see on radar. It's just not feasible to get an airliner into the country this way.

Cities do not have "no fly zones," but they do have air traffic control facilities that will respond to unauthorized entry into the airspace. But if a jet gets that far, it's too late to intercept.
 
Deuce said:
A 777 can't take off from a small, uncertified airstrip without its gear collapsing or smashing into trees, and it can't fly that low for very long before it runs out of fuel. (large jets are incredibly inefficient at low altitudes)

And something that big is very, very easy to see on radar. It's just not feasible to get an airliner into the country this way.

Cities do not have "no fly zones," but they do have air traffic control facilities that will respond to unauthorized entry into the airspace. But if a jet gets that far, it's too late to intercept.
Click to expand...

Sorry - I wasn't referring to this aircraft that went missing, but to Maggie's broader point about an airplane being able to enter the country undetected and deliver some type of explosive device somewhere. It certainly wouldn't be a 777 type of aircraft, but seems to me it's not an impossible scenario.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom