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Muslims replacing Jews as Europe's scapegoat

Muslims replacing Jews as Europe's scapegoat?

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lewstherin said:
the world is changing. it's overpopulated, for one thing. countries are having a hard time supporting their own citizens, let alone a bunch
of stragglers who actually hold contempt for the nation they're residing in.
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Tis very true..
 
kaya'08 said:
There is definetly no comparison in how they came about to be hated, but it doesn't change the fact that extremist Muslims are in the minority and the nusiance they are creating has made them public enemy number one for all of the biggest far right parties in Europe.
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Think about what you are saying. There are something like 1.5 billion Muslims. So if only 10% are extremists or support extremists that translates to 150 million people. I think you agree that in many parts of the Muslim world 10% would be a gross understatement of people who at least support extremist activities.
 
washunut said:
Think about what you are saying. There are something like 1.5 billion Muslims. So if only 10% are extremists or support extremists that translates to 150 million people. I think you agree that in many parts of the Muslim world 10% would be a gross understatement of people who at least support extremist activities.
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I have never seen those statistics. In any case that doesn't give you the right to judge 90% of people based on the actions of 10%. It DOES mean however that we have a big fight on our hands.
 
kaya'08 said:
I have never seen those statistics. In any case that doesn't give you the right to judge 90% of people based on the actions of 10%. It DOES mean however that we have a big fight on our hands.
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No where did you see me judge other people. I do point out though that this group for some reason has a disproportionate number of members willing to do horrible things. I would have expected the majority to do their own introspection, to understand what in their teaching as allowing so many to follow such a hateful approach to people who do not believe as they do.

To me that is the great moral failing of the leaders of this religion. Putting their head in the stand and saying that it is a small minority without truly addressing the issue seems like the act of moral cowards.
 
kaya'08 said:
....

Are you suggesting all Muslims are engaging in a particular behavior that means they deserve this treatment?
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Super-basic Strawman alert!!!
"are you suggesting ALL Muslims...."

A question guaranteed to have a 'no' answer.
This, the most common fallacious argument attempt on message boards.
If however, one uses the honest and informative 'Some', 'Many', or 'most', he's screwed.
Thus strawman "all."

Kaya said:
1) Mainstream Islam is not preaching violence, discrimination or extremism. That mean's that the actions of a handful is causing reactionary tensions against a generally non-violent civilization in Europe whom are facing increasing discrimination.
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Mainstream Muslims either in Majority or Significant Minority are in favor of Sharia Law and such punishments as Amputation for thievery, DEATH for Apostasy, and Stoning for adultery. (polls worldwide available, but we've ben thru this). Not to mention penalties for 'insulting Islam.'

and of course:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...zero-tolerance-homosexuality-0-fer-500-a.html

THAT'S "Mainstream" Islam.
No more tricks.
 
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This is unfortunately very true. This is very prominent in England. I know a lot of them refer to Muslims as "Pakis".
 
washunut said:
No where did you see me judge other people. I do point out though that this group for some reason has a disproportionate number of members willing to do horrible things. I would have expected the majority to do their own introspection, to understand what in their teaching as allowing so many to follow such a hateful approach to people who do not believe as they do.

To me that is the great moral failing of the leaders of this religion. Putting their head in the stand and saying that it is a small minority without truly addressing the issue seems like the act of moral cowards.
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Sorry, i was talking in general terms wasn't aimed at you.
 
mbig said:
Super-basic Strawman alert!!!
"are you suggesting ALL Muslims...."

A question guaranteed to have a 'no' answer.
This, the most common fallacious argument attempt on message boards.
If however, one uses the honest and informative 'Some', 'Many', or 'most', he's screwed.
Thus strawman "all."
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Lets bring this discussion back into the fold of intelligence. Gardener has made his bias against Muslims very clear so i think i was right to seek clarification on this issue.


Mainstream Muslims either in Majority or Significant Minority are in favor of Sharia Law and such punishments as Amputation for thievery, DEATH for Apostasy, and Stoning for adultery. (polls worldwide available, but we've ben thru this). Not to mention penalties for 'insulting Islam.'
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I know for a fact 60% of Muslims in the UK are against Shariah law but i havent seen European statistics on a whole.

Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK - Telegraph

Perhaps you could be kind enough to prove your assertions?

and of course:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...zero-tolerance-homosexuality-0-fer-500-a.html

THAT'S "Mainstream" Islam.
No more tricks.
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Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance towards homosexual acts compared to their counterparts in France and Germany, according to a survey published today.

By comparison, 35% of French Muslims found homosexual acts to be acceptable. A question on pornography also elicited different reactions, with French and German Muslims more likely than British Muslims to believe that watching or reading pornography was morally acceptable.

On the issue of sexual relations between unmarried men and women, general populations surveyed express similar views, with the majority believing it was acceptable. But the Muslim populations polled again reflected greater diversity on the matter. French Muslims ranked highest again, with 48% believing it was acceptable, followed by 27% of German Muslims responding favourably. British Muslims came last, with only 3% of those questioned personally believing that sex between unmarried men and women was moral. There was a similar outcome when asked for their views on extra-marital affairs.

So your poll shows that British Muslims are particularly conservative yet European Muslims have much more liberal views on these topics. So again, you blowing everything out of proportion by posting the misleading accusation that Muslims have ZERO tolerance towards gays, rather than stating this was only the case in Britain where only 1000 Muslims where interviewed.

There are also Orthodox Jews who have just as conservative views on these topics, should we throw them out too? Hell, i remember one Jewish MP in Israel blaming the 2008 earthquakes on Gays.

What i mean to say is, your argument is a fallacy.
 
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kaya'08 said:
Lets bring this discussion back into the fold of intelligence. Gardener has made his bias against Muslims very clear so i think i was right to seek clarification on this issue.
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By not comparing them to Jews in most dishonest fashion?
 
kaya'08 said:
Sorry was this aimed at me?
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Your link says 41% oppose it. You claim to know for a fact that 60% oppose it. What secret info do you have and why would you link something that proves your known fact to be incorrect.



That's rhetorical. Don't hurt yourself explaining.
 
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Kaya said:
I know for a fact 60% of Muslims in the UK are against Shariah law but i havent seen European statistics on a whole.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ls-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

Perhaps you could be kind enough to prove your assertions?
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LOL
You didn't even read your own Link.
You know Nothing "for a fact".

Your link cont'd:
"40% of the British Muslims surveyed said they backed introducing sharia in parts of Britain, while 41% opposed it."

About an even split. You Mistakenly subtracted 40 from 100 without considering the 'maybes'/undecideds.

Which is what I said, "Some", "Many", Most", "Significant Minorities" or "Majorities". (not your strawman 'all')
ergo, 40-60 wouldn't have refuted my point anyway.

kaya said:
So your poll shows that British Muslims are particularly conservative yet European Muslims have much more liberal views on these topics. So again, you blowing everything out of proportion by posting the misleading accusation that Muslims have ZERO tolerance towards gays, rather than stating this was only the case in Britain where only 1000 Muslims where interviewed....
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More liberal but still MAJORITY INTOLERANT.

kaya said:
There are also Orthodox Jews who have just as conservative views on these topics, should we throw them out too? Hell, i remember one Jewish MP in Israel blaming the 2008 earthquakes on Gays.

What i mean to say is, your argument is a fallacy.
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So you're comparing ALL Muslims to the mere 10% of Jews who are Orthodox.
I agree, the Normal "Mainstream" Muslim is equivalent in Piety to an Orthodox Jew, But NOT the other 90% of normal Mainstream/secular Jews.

It's YOUR Fallacious and illogical debate backfiring as usual.
 
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ecofarm said:
Your link says 41% oppose it. You claim to know for a fact that 60% oppose it. What secret info do you have and why would you link something that proves your known fact to be incorrect.



That's rhetorical. Don't hurt yourself explaining.
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I couldn't care less if you read the rest of my post or not, i wasn't talking to you anyway.

Let's do the math. If 40% percent of all Muslim Britons favour Shariah law that means 60% either do not or favor something else.
 
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mbig said:
LOL
You didn't even read your own Link.
You know Nothing "for a fact".

Your link cont'd:
"40% of the British Muslims surveyed said they backed introducing sharia in parts of Britain, while 41% opposed it."

About an even split. You Mistakenly subtracted 40 from 100 without considering the 'maybes'/undecideds.

Which is what I said, "Some", "Many", Most", "Significant Minorities" or "Majorities". (not your strawman 'all')
ergo, 40-60 wouldn't have refuted my point anyway.
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YOUR claim was most Muslims favor Shariah law yet only 40% of all Muslims in Briton do, 44% of all Muslims oppose it and the rest have other varying preferences. You said "most Muslims favor Shariah", when these statistics show only 40% of all Muslims give Shariah fall backing in Briton. I then asked you to provide statistics of your claim that most Muslims in Europe want Shariah which you failed to do.

More liberal but still MAJORITY INTOLERANT.
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And how many dedicated Christians or Jews are tolerant to homosexuality? You clearly tried to mislead members of this forum by purpoting "Muslims had no tolerance towards homosexuals" without mentioning only those in Briton and even then only 1000 Muslims where surveyed.

So you're comparing ALL Muslims to the mere 10% of Jews who are Orthodox.
I agree, the Normal "Mainstream" Muslim is equivalent in Piety to an Orthodox Jew, But NOT the other 90% of normal Mainstream/secular Jews.

It's YOUR Fallacious and illogical debate backfiring as usual.
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And your comparing "all muslims" with 1000 that where surveyed? Your last statement rings irony.
 
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kaya'08 said:
I couldn't care less if you read the rest of my post or not, i wasn't talking to you anyway.

Let's do the math. If 40% percent of all Muslim Britons favour Shariah law that means 60% either do not or favor something else.
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and that 40% does not alarm you in the least?

A large majority of British Muslims want people jailed for criticizing Islam. I would assume you agree based upon your myriad disingenous defenses in this thread, but at some point perhaps you could approach the subject without a preexisting bias TOWARDS Islam rather than wagging your finger at those you claim are "Islamophobes".


Why should somebody support a group of people who hold such backwards views? Sure, it's nice to support the minority of Muslims who are not so afflicted, but let's get real here. Heck, the number of Muslims worldwide who believe in killing people for apostasy is staggering, yet for those who have just dug in their heels with a predetermined need to defend, I'm sure this, too, can be rationalized.
 
kaya'08 said:
That wasn't the question i asked you.
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You are too busy making accusations and rationalizing to ask any valid questions.

The basic premise of this thread is to compare the situation today with European Muslims to that of the previous century with Jews. Any intelligent person should be able to not countless differences in the situations, yet you have simply decided to reject anything that does not conform to your notion that apples and oranges are really the same thing, and you have gone to great lengths in your sophistry to display such.
 
I agree that they are being targeted quite frequently, yet Muslims have a great deal of violence associated with them, especially the fundamentalists. That being said, here in the US, immigrants from Latin America are being blamed quite frequently for much of the economic burdens. So I think it is not uniquely European, all are looking for scapegoats in tough times and always have, however the Islamic peoples have been met with new cautiousness around the world as I think most fear at first who among them are potential terrorists.
 
ManofthPeephole said:
226728_10150589478980635_900830634_18430798_7649403_n.jpg
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This is just so...wrong.
 
Gardener said:
and that 40% does not alarm you in the least?
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Hell yeah it does, but last i checked Democracy was about tolerance and embracing ideologies across all spectrums, Democracy here in Europe works differently in America where the participation of ideologies outside of the typical Pro-Democracy Pro-Capitalist spectrum is non-existent and that is to our advantage.

In Europe we encourage the participation of every sects of society in politics, it's better than polarizing people.

We will never agree or accept Shariah, end of story. If we continue promoting education and British values it will always work in our favor. It's what has kept our Democracy on top for centuries.

As long as Muslims do not advocate terrorism they can believe in whatever politics they like. Do you disagree?

A large majority of British Muslims want people jailed for criticizing Islam. I would assume you agree based upon your myriad disingenous defenses in this thread, but at some point perhaps you could approach the subject without a preexisting bias TOWARDS Islam rather than wagging your finger at those you claim are "Islamophobes".
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Actually i consider myself to be pretty centred on this issue unlike some who sit on DP all day waiting for any chance to prey on an "Islamic" topic. It's not surprising most religious people would want some form of justice taken against those who offend their prophet.

I think it's wrong and stupid, but really, what religious group doesn't get all wound up about their prophets being slandered? At the end of the day we just need to discourage extremism, be that far right/left Christian or Muslim supremacy, we need to do what we have been doing for years; ignore it and discourage it. Witch hunts don't work neither will driving them underground.

It's just religious people for you. Why should somebody support a group of people who hold such backwards views? Sure, it's nice to support the minority of Muslims who are not so afflicted, but let's get real here. Heck, the number of Muslims worldwide who believe in killing people for apostasy is staggering, yet for those who have just dug in their heels with a predetermined need to defend, I'm sure this, too, can be rationalized.
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When you say "most Muslims", in what demographics exactly? I would say most Muslims coming from the poorer Arabic countries are backwards sure but not all of the Muslims in Europe.
 
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Gardener said:
You are too busy making accusations and rationalizing to ask any valid questions.

The basic premise of this thread is to compare the situation today with European Muslims to that of the previous century with Jews. Any intelligent person should be able to not countless differences in the situations, yet you have simply decided to reject anything that does not conform to your notion that apples and oranges are really the same thing, and you have gone to great lengths in your sophistry to display such.
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No, the basic premise isn't to compare how Jews came about to be hated and how Muslims came about to be hated. The basic discussion here is: has antisemetism been pushed to the back of the que in far right circles in Europe?

Your debating with me which one deserves it more. Frankly no man on this Earth deserves to be targeted for his religious beliefs, end of.
 
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