Do you support Obama's continuation of Bush's policies on the War on Terror?

Badmutha said:

Community Organizer playing dress up as Commander In Chief = ?



Statistics dont prove anything.......when it applies to Liberalism



As is every Liberal that keeps voting for Change and accepts HusSame......
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No, statistics don't prove anything when you use ****ty logic.

Yep, It's probably only one good thing has been made by Obama.

I never supported Bush's GWOT policies and I don't support Obama's.

ADG said:

I don't think it is possible to bring democracy to Afganistan. It certainly is not possible while we have troops in country being seen as occupiers. Democracy is not something you can force on a society, or will it into existence, it must be grown organically from the bottom up, not top down. It can only be sustainable that way. The best thing we can do in Afganistan is to leave. We have nothing to prove, and personally, I don't want to lose another friend to that war.

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We have to prevent the government turning into another Taliban supporter, the only way to make it so the people arnt turned and manipulated is to establish a government ourselves. The only government we are going to establish, because of our values, is a democratic one, because it is the most moral, fair, just, modern system there is. We as americans cant trust any other type of government being established, its a very delicate situation over there, tis why we are there in the first place.

StillBallin75 said:

I'd argue that there are just as effective ways to get the same information to save lives, without having to resort to physical torture or compromising our values.

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I think it depends on the situation and how dire the information is.

celticwar17 said:

I think it depends on the situation and how dire the information is.

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Celticwar, this is how I feel about it

From a post from another thread

StillBallin75 said:

In my military history class a few years ago, my professor invited a CIA case officer (also a former Marine and former student of the same class) to give a guest lecture to the class. He said it was NEVER okay to torture, and that the "ticking time-bomb scenario" (which is a one-in-a million chance contrived scenario in the first place) and for which many envision torture to be useful could be avoided if one had done their homework the right way up until that point.

To me, torture represents doing things the convenient and easy way, rather than doing things the right way. It is un-American and goes against our values. The ticking time-bomb scenario is the ONLY scenario for which I would even consider saying that torture is justified. And who's to say that the same intelligence couldn't have been obtained without torture, with a little more time and patience?

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celticwar17 said:

We have to prevent the government turning into another Taliban supporter, the only way to make it so the people arnt turned and manipulated is to establish a government ourselves. The only government we are going to establish, because of our values, is a democratic one, because it is the most moral, fair, just, modern system there is. We as americans cant trust any other type of government being established, its a very delicate situation over there, tis why we are there in the first place.

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Celticwar, I think your evaluation of the situation is a bit simplistic.

1) Yes, democracy is great. Now, throughout US history, why have so many of our allies been undemocratic regimes?
2) ADG isn't arguing that we SHOULDN'T establish a democracy there. He is saying that we CAN'T, because of the history and culture and politics of that region.

StillBallin75 said:

Celticwar, I think your evaluation of the situation is a bit simplistic.

1) Yes, democracy is great. Now, throughout US history, why have so many of our allies been undemocratic regimes?
2) ADG isn't arguing that we SHOULDN'T establish a democracy there. He is saying that we CAN'T, because of the history and culture and politics of that region.

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I was more trying to be somewhat devils advicate, because idk fully what i think.

I feel like America is cornered in this decision. How can we establish anything other then a democratic society?

celticwar17 said:

I was more trying to be somewhat devils advicate, because idk fully what i think.

I feel like America is cornered in this decision. How can we establish anything other then a democratic society?

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I agree. That's why this isn't a black and white issue, it's really tough for Obama to decide how he wants to approach Afghanistan.

tlmorg02 said:

Here is the Reagan quote-

From President Ronald Reagan’s signing statement ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984:



And I am not saying that torture is an American value, I am simply saying that the US has employed necessary measures in the past to win wars. Now, as to the Japanese waterboarding, of course we complained they were doing it to our soldiers. Ultimately I do not think torture works in getting totally credible info, most agree that it does not. But if employing any of these "border-line" torture techniques saves an American life, then I am all for it.

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To your last point it is hard to disagree, but it seems that this is a big 'IF'.

Thanks for the Reagan Quote!

StillBallin75 said:

I'd argue that there are just as effective ways to get the same information to save lives, without having to resort to physical torture or compromising our values.

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Agreed. As I said in my previous post, that's a big "IF".

celticwar17 said:

We have to prevent the government turning into another Taliban supporter, the only way to make it so the people arnt turned and manipulated is to establish a government ourselves. The only government we are going to establish, because of our values, is a democratic one, because it is the most moral, fair, just, modern system there is. We as americans cant trust any other type of government being established, its a very delicate situation over there, tis why we are there in the first place.

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I guess I would challenge the assertion that we have to prevent the governement from turning back to the Taliban. I see Afganistan as a man holding a small dog tightly because he was biting you. You have your hand over his snout, preventing him from biting, and you are holding the little guy as tight as you can, trying to calm him down. But you know the moment you decide to let him go he is going to bite or scratch you, and maybe even draw blood. So, are you going to hold the dog forever? Will you let him go and deal with the scratch or bite later? You have to let him go, no matter how calm you think he has gotten.

But now the dog knows that if he tries to bite you again, you can restrain his butt at will.

StillBallin75 said:

Celticwar, I think your evaluation of the situation is a bit simplistic.

1) Yes, democracy is great. Now, throughout US history, why have so many of our allies been undemocratic regimes?
2) ADG isn't arguing that we SHOULDN'T establish a democracy there. He is saying that we CAN'T, because of the history and culture and politics of that region.

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That is correct, sir!

Our war with Islam demands tough measures. There's no other way.

Badmutha said:

......and the vital information that led to the dispatching of Osama......came straight out of Gitmo.

Good thing it wasnt shut down huh Libs?
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I never had an issue with Gitmo but wonder about your logic.

If the information was obtained 8yrs ago then shutting it down does not matter.

StillBallin75 said:

I don't understand why the embargo is still in place though.

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Cuba is still a communist country. It's not socialist, as socialists embrace democracy. The same regime that tried to get nukes is still in dictatorial control of the island. Apparently, we cannot invade and nation build for a variety of reasons perhaps including deals involving the Crisis. If the Cuban people (meaning, those living in Cuba) want Americans to visit and buy their stuff, then they can become a democracy. We exercise serious economic warfare against Castro's totalitarian regime, and we should. Perhaps someday, the regime will be weak enough for the people to rise again.

StillBallin75 said:

1) Yes, democracy is great. Now, throughout US history, why have so many of our allies been undemocratic regimes?

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1. Western democracy, especially outside the US and Europe, is a very new thing in history. We were among the first and many countries are only having democratic revolutions today. Many have not had such a revolution, and they continue to live in political darkness.
2. We cannot invade and nation build every country at the same time. There must be priorities and nations with the resource and infrastructural capacity to nation build themselves to a considerable extent will be at the front of the line.
3. We can invade tyranical countries by engaging them in diplomatic and economic spheres. In this way, a crack is opened for our influence even if there is not immediate and dramatic change. It's a slow method, one which I personally do not prefer, but it is a means.

For the above three reasons, and others not mentioned, many (most if not for Europe) US "allies" were undemocratic regimes. Now, counting them today I figure the vast majority of our allies would be democratic.

2) ADG isn't arguing that we SHOULDN'T establish a democracy there. He is saying that we CAN'T, because of the history and culture and politics of that region.

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I reject that reasoning. People very rarely, if ever, give up their freedom and vote in a tyrant knowingly. People want to have a voice in their authority - everyone does. It's animal and human nature to desire control over one's resources and decisions. Claiming that some people like being slaves and want to remain so (or that they don't know better thus they are happy) is not something for me.

Afghanistan: I understand it (thought do not necessarily agree)
Iraq: Seriously? Why are we there and why did we go to begin with?
Extraordinarily rendition: Do I need to explain why it's pathetic that the US admits they take part in this practice?
Illegal Wiretapping: It's #*$(#*&$(*#&(* illegal. Stop it.
(did I miss anything else?)

Obviously I voted no.

ecofarm said:

Cuba is still a communist country. It's not socialist, as socialists embrace democracy. The same regime that tried to get nukes is still in dictatorial control of the island. Apparently, we cannot invade and nation build for a variety of reasons perhaps including deals involving the Crisis. If the Cuban people (meaning, those living in Cuba) want Americans to visit and buy their stuff, then they can become a democracy. We exercise serious economic warfare against Castro's totalitarian regime, and we should. Perhaps someday, the regime will be weak enough for the people to rise again.



1. Western democracy, especially outside the US and Europe, is a very new thing in history. We were among the first and many countries are only having democratic revolutions today. Many have not had such a revolution, and they continue to live in political darkness.
2. We cannot invade and nation build every country at the same time. There must be priorities and nations with the resource and infrastructural capacity to nation build themselves to a considerable extent will be at the front of the line.
3. We can invade tyranical countries by engaging them in diplomatic and economic spheres. In this way, a crack is opened for our influence even if there is not immediate and dramatic change. It's a slow method, one which I personally do not prefer, but it is a means.

For the above three reasons, and others not mentioned, many (most if not for Europe) US "allies" were undemocratic regimes. Now, counting them today I figure the vast majority of our allies would be democratic.


I reject that reasoning. People very rarely, if ever, give up their freedom and vote in a tyrant knowingly. People want to have a voice in their authority - everyone does. It's animal and human nature to desire control over one's resources and decisions. Claiming that some people like being slaves and want to remain so (or that they don't know better thus they are happy) is not something for me.

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I agree with all your points except the first and last one. If we lifted the embargo, the Cubans would see the benefits of having freer economic flows. Afghan has no (or at least a very thin) national identity. They are a tribal society. Now, perhaps Afghan culture is entirely compatible with a functional democracy. But it will be VERY difficult to establish one that works well.

I fully supported the Bush policies on Terror, and am thankful President Obama kept them in place. Bin Laden "at sea" is worth the price alone.

StillBallin75 said:

If we lifted the embargo, the Cubans would see the benefits of having freer economic flows.

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No. Just like in Africa, the warlords would appropriate it all.

Now, perhaps Afghan culture is entirely compatible with a functional democracy. But it will be VERY difficult to establish one that works well.

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"That works well" is subjective. How about we get some infrastructure in place before we bail? Just in the urban areas at least. Some kind of gender and human rights. I'm not asking for Eden. Once they get started, they'll figure out what they want - if we must have 'theys'.


ps. I believe that Iraq and even Afghanistan have fueled the fire of democracy in north Africa and the ME.

ecofarm said:

No. Just like in Africa, the warlords would appropriate it all.



"That works well" is subjective. How about we get some infrastructure in place before we bail? Just in the urban areas at least. Some kind of gender and human rights. I'm not asking for Eden. Once they get started, they'll figure out what they want - if we must have 'theys'.


ps. I believe that Iraq and even Afghanistan have fueled the fire of democracy in north Africa and the ME.

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I believe Iraq has little, if anything, to do with the Arab spring. Facebook and Twitter played a greater role.

I believe Iraq made subjects believe it was possible to vote.

whysoserious said:

Iraq: Seriously? Why are we there and why did we go to begin with?

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I guess we weren't there when we kicked him out of Kuwait and supported his continued rule in Iraq. I guess we weren't there when we entered "Kurdistan" to deal with the humanitarian crisis he created soon after. I guess we weren't there when we enforced UN resolutions and bombed his country four separate times in the 1990s. I guess weren't there when we starved out millions of Iraqis for 12 years under UN approval. I guess Osama Bin Laden's use of the Iraqi starvation mission and our escellating troop force in Saudi Arabia to enforce that UN mission to legitimize 9/11 wasn't real.

To bitch and pretend that we had no reason to take responsibility for our mess in Iraq prior to 2003 is criminal. And to suggest further that "we" are anywhere is a joke. Where were you?

StillBallin75 said:

I believe Iraq has little, if anything, to do with the Arab spring. Facebook and Twitter played a greater role.

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That's because you refuse to believe it. There is nothing here that doesn't make sense. Do you think that the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand would have sparked off a World War had there not been years and years of an escallating arms race between European powers? Like then, Tunisia was the spark that voting Iraqis facilitated. Arabs historically follow Arabs. This is a well known fact. It doesn't get to be dismissed so that people like you can cling to your tired protests. Everything in the Middle East is happening exactly as men like Ralph Peters and Bernard Lewis predicted even before Iraqis voted. All it takes is a bit of learning about this civilization to be able to predict its path.

Or do you still think that this so called "War on Terror" is about an old dead man in the sea? Look between Libya and Pakistan. There's your "War on Terror." Bin Laden's death across CNN did nothing for the crowds in the chow halls over here in Afghanistan. Nobody really cared because we know the bigger picture that we have been entangled in since 9/11.

MSgt said:

That's because you refuse to believe it. There is nothing here that doesn't make sense. Do you think that the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand would have sparked off a World War had there not been years and years of an escallating arms race between European powers? Like then, Tunisia was the spark that voting Iraqis facilitated. Arabs historically follow Arabs. This is a well known fact. It doesn't get to be dismissed so that people like you can cling to your tired protests. Everything in the Middle East is happening exactly as men like Ralph Peters and Bernard Lewis predicted even before Iraqis voted. All it takes is a bit of learning about this civilization to be able to predict its path.

Or do you still think that this so called "War on Terror" is about an old dead man in the sea? Look between Libya and Pakistan. There's your "War on Terror." Bin Laden's death across CNN did nothing for the crowds in the chow halls over here in Afghanistan. Nobody really cared because we know the bigger picture that we have been entangled in since 9/11.

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Sorry, I don't see how any Tunisian could look at Iraq and say, "man, I wanna be like them!" Iraq may be a democracy at this point, but it's not a very good example of one. Internal factors in each of these countries played a much bigger role. If you can provide any evidence that the Tunisian protesters took to the streets because they looked to Iraq as a shining beacon, I would like to see it. Not to mention, why wait so long? Iraq has been a democracy since 2003-2004. What made Iraq in 2011 so special?