Should the Young be Allowed to Opt Out?

Nonplussed said:

You make the assumption that this will happen. It wasn't happening before SS and there is no need to assume it will happen once SS goes away. Although, I am not really accounting for the greed, laziness, and consumption driven lack of morality of the baby boomers there either so you never know...

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It did happen before SS...

lovetosing4678 said:

Sorry, but what you guys are quoting is not what I said. I hit the shift key and tab or something and it entered my post before I was done typing. Please read the whole post which is up not and revise you opinion on what my thought is. I am not laying down and dying... Please read. sorry for the mistake, but it would be wise to actually try find out what I believe before assuming as that is not what I think I conveyed in either of my posts.

In fact, considering I even said " I don't have the attitude of lay down and cry" yet you both said that I do after I said that is a little weird. Maybe you should read past the first few sentences of a post.

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Go ahead and explain yourself better... I haven't decided that I understand you better than you do. However, you seem to not expect the government to repay you for what you paid into, and that you'll just lose that money to the government. Is the correct or incorrect?

SheWolf said:

Stronger family support... **** that. It shouldn't only be on the backs of one's family. It should be community concern, and a humanitarian concern. I am not arguing that government enforce people to care, but your attitude of "I don't care if you're 80 and eating cat food" is exactly why people look to the government for help, because they can't look to their fellow man. Maybe if you fixed your own damn attitude, and everybody gave a **** about their neighbor, we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place.

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It's not your neighbor's obligation to care about your retirement. That was your obligation. That is your family's obligation. I don't care about your retirement. I care that my retirement is taken care of and that I can support my parents and other elderly family members with the help of my generation within the family. When I have to care for you and your lack of planning and your family's apathy toward their own (editorial "you", not the personal "you"), it takes away from my ability to elevate the quality of life for those I actually do care about.

It's not society's problem. It's a private matter between seniors and their family's.

And everyone acts as though charity doesn't exist for those who would truly need it.

SheWolf said:

It did happen before SS...

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It happens now. But it was never the norm. Unless you can show evidence of this elderly holocaust prior to SS, it didn't happen.

lovetosing4678 said:

The problem is that if you continue to pay in they will rob you! You will not get that money back and you won't see any benefit from it. You will not be able to demand to be repaid because you don't have any legal grounds to contest it.
I don't have the attitude of lay down and cry. I have the attitude that NOTHING is getting done in this country and the people that are going to suffer are the young. I took ONE semester of government in high school and that is all I had to take through out all of my school including college. No one is educated the youth of this nation on how to save money, how to be self-sufficient and how the government works. All you hear is go to the voting booth. You aren't taught or even told to find out as much as you can about a candidate. I waited for 6 hours in line for vote for president in 2008. I would say 80% of those people voted straight off of what their parents were voting. Note: This was on a college campus. I don't know how the whole nation isn't up in arms fighting against the complacency that is present today. Nothing changes. We all sit around here on DB arguing over the merits of several policies but the majority of us are not fully educated on what bills that are getting passed entail and none of us (or at least most of us) are doing anything to have ANY SORT OF CHANGE!!! That is the premise Obama ran on... Change! He can't do it on his own! Politicians are voted into power by the people but then they get there and go on their own way. I live in Florida and our current governor continually says I wasn't elected to be popular! YES YOU WERE!!! It is their job to do what WE want!!!! Why are we letting them give all our money to other people, the rich, the poor, companies, etc whatever you believe in LET THEM KNOW. Make them do it. Don't let your taxes line their pockets!!!

Sorry it became a rant... It just frustrates me to know that nothing is getting done.

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In case, you can't scroll up in the thread to read what I wrote...

Shewolf, I plan on becoming more politically involved and try make a difference. I have accepted the fact that for the time being the government will take my money for SS and I believe I will not get that back. To think any different is dumb in my opinion. The government cannot afford to pay us back for it. Your statement seems to be they cant do that, thats not fair. O well... You seem to be more lay down and take it than me. Changes need to be made in the government. LOTS of them. That is done through voting in politicians that can make a difference. The government does a lot of things that they shouldn't be doing. Why do you think that because you ask the government... well hey, I gave you my money as a loan, can I have it back? they will give it to you? Unrealistic.

lovetosing4678 said:

I am 21 and currently a full time student. Last year I was a full time student and working 30 hours a week at 9 dollars an hour. The MAJORITY of taxes taken out of my paycheck was SS. I will not see a penny of that money in my future. If I was given that money in my paycheck, I might have had money to save. But when you are already taking out a large percentage of my check and putting it somewhere I wont get it, you don't leave any room left for me to save on my own. My dad is currently supporting me, if it wasn't for him, I couldn't afford school, medicine, maybe even rent working full time. I look at how expensive things are and then look at my paycheck and wonder how people are supposed to make ends meet without the help of others. I think things need to DRASTICALLY change for those of us who are young will be able to live in the future. I do not need the government to help me retire, just give me my money so I can spend it as I need. If a person doesn't save let them live on the street. It is there fault.

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I really liked your post. It was dead on illustrative of the trouble you and most others are in. You need to be saving much more than SS taxes are taking from your check. Your daddy is financing you so your savings are essentially negative. When do you think you will start saving for retirement? Your daddy is essentially paying your SS taxes. Good thing too since you don’t know how to save yet and may never learn. Are you full time this year? How much do you expect to earn upon graduation? You can spend all of $50,000/year net w/o saving a bit for retirement. You wrote “I look at how expensive things are and then look at my paycheck and wonder how people are supposed to make ends meet without the help of others.” Hey, those others need to retire too. If we all had a Daddy we wouldn’t need SS; but there aren’t enough Daddies to go around. Are you spending your Daddy’s retirement? Is he just going to be left with a too small SS check at retirement?

Nonplussed said:

It's not your neighbor's obligation to care about your retirement.

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Oh please... I never said it was. I am not saying I expect anything from anybody, however, I come from a family and have the attitude that people should care for other people. I help people and I do volunteer work. It's not my obligation to donate money to Haiti but I did. It's not obligation to work in a support group and help survivors of rape and incest in my community, but I do.

I do those things, because I care about people and I care about my community. I am not forced to do by the government, and I am not arguing that it should be forced by the government. I simply feel it's my obligation as a human being to stop injustices.

I am complaining that this is an institutionalized attitude that needs to be changed... of course I know nobody is really obligated to help anybody else. All I am saying is that I find your attitude to be ****ty, and why an 80 year eating cat food would look to the government to help her before looking for good and willing Samaritans in her community to help her.

You probably think liberals are the problem... when in fact, I think the liberals are trying to help because society is infected with people like you, not willing to help other people.

That was your obligation. That is your family's obligation.

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Once you're 18, your family isn't obligated to do **** for you.

If you're 80 years old and eating cat food, you're parents are dead... and your kids might not give a **** about your old ass or have the money to support you.

People don't want to feel like a burden at any stage in their life... When you're old, you lose your independence...

I don't care about your retirement. I care that my retirement is taken care of and that I can support my parents and other elderly family members with the help of my generation within the family.

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I know you don't care about your community or anybody else but your own... We have established your ****ty attitude is far from being a solution to these issues.

When I have to care for you and your lack of planning and your family's apathy toward their own (editorial "you", not the personal "you"), it takes away from my ability to elevate the quality of life for those I actually do care about.

It's not society's problem. It's a private matter between seniors and their family's.

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It is societies problem... Again, you are mistaken if you think ignoring the impoverished isn't going to affect you. You can beat your drum on and on about this all you want, but they have a right to vote and they might as well ignore your lecturing and scolding and vote for more social assistance if nothing else is done. Then all you'll be able to do is keep repeating this tried old rhetoric, and repeating it, and repeating it... because you have nothing to offer.

OhIsee.Then said:

I really liked your post. It was dead on illustrative of the trouble you and most others are in. You need to be saving much more than SS taxes are taking from your check. Your daddy is financing you so your savings are essentially negative. When do you think you will start saving for retirement? Your daddy is essentially paying your SS taxes. Good thing too since you don’t know how to save yet and may never learn. Are you full time this year? How much do you expect to earn upon graduation? You can spend all of $50,000/year net w/o saving a bit for retirement. You wrote “I look at how expensive things are and then look at my paycheck and wonder how people are supposed to make ends meet without the help of others.” Hey, those others need to retire too. If we all had a Daddy we wouldn’t need SS; but there aren’t enough Daddies to go around. Are you spending your Daddy’s retirement? Is he just going to be left with a too small SS check at retirement?

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Dude, she's 21 in college making 9 bucks an hour. It's a time in her life when Daddy is supposed to be helping her financially. Jeeze.

That's the whole thing, too. If you saw more Dad's like hers supporting the next generation, that generation will be better equipped to support the Dad's in their old age.

Nonplussed said:

It happens now. But it was never the norm. Unless you can show evidence of this elderly holocaust prior to SS, it didn't happen.

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That's enough emotional, hyperbole and exaggeration of what I said. If you want to keep living in a fantasy world, that's your prerogative.

Nonplussed said:

Dude, she's 21 in college making 9 bucks an hour. It's a time in her life when Daddy is supposed to be helping her financially. Jeeze.

That's the whole thing, too. If you saw more Dad's like hers supporting the next generation, that generation will be better equipped to support the Dad's in their old age.

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My dad is physically disabled... I support him, he doesn't support me.

Shewolf, the problem is that SS is a tax - you are not guaranteed to get anything. The government owes you nothing :shrug:
There isn't any money to pay out.
Just think about it logically, too. The first generation who got SS did fantastically. They paid barely anything in and got so much money. Now, eventually someone's going to have to bite the bullet for that. It is either going to be one generation, or spread out over a few, but somebody is going to get ****ed by SS.
There's a person on this forum who brags about getting 10x more than he put in and what a great investment it was. The problem is that it ISN'T an investment. SS gets 'invested' into government bonds. Yay, we see interest on that, right? No, not really. The interest paid on those government bonds gets paid for by, guess who? Us, via other taxes.
So, the problem is that the SS 'fund' only generates 'interest' through other taxes. We end up paying for it anyway. Right now, there's a ton of liabilities, we're running a deficit (or soon will be, I forget which it is) on it and there's no end in sight. Reforming SS just means we're going to spread the burden across more generations until it ends up collapsing anyway and screwing over everyone who had yet to receive anything. Or, cut it now and screw over everyone who had yet to receive anything as of now.

SS isn't going to end well. For everyone under 50 now, it's a game of hot potato, but the ****ed up part is we're all left with the potato in the end. Let's look to see who wrote themselves checks, payable by their kids and grandkids.

lovetosing4678 said:

In case, you can't scroll up in the thread to read what I wrote...

Shewolf, I plan on becoming more politically involved and try make a difference. I have accepted the fact that for the time being the government will take my money for SS and I believe I will not get that back. To think any different is dumb in my opinion. The government cannot afford to pay us back for it. Your statement seems to be they cant do that, thats not fair. O well... You seem to be more lay down and take it than me. Changes need to be made in the government. LOTS of them. That is done through voting in politicians that can make a difference. The government does a lot of things that they shouldn't be doing. Why do you think that because you ask the government... well hey, I gave you my money as a loan, can I have it back? they will give it to you? Unrealistic.

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I am not willing to take it from the government.... I will fight the government on this, and I will write politicians. You'll know my name if the government thinks they are going to rob me and my generation.

Don't get me wrong... I think they might try, but it's still unconstitutional, and my generation will be in power eventually. If the government outright robs us, and the people don't complain about it, then we are all ****ed and this country, and the founders dream would be entirely lost.

Social security is a multi-level corporation. The top of the pyramid received the best benefits years ago. Now it is too big to fail.(sound familiar). I cannot speak for all, if one cannot at least benefit from the SS taxes withheld by the government, the people should have a shot at putting that money towards another option.

iamitter said:

Shewolf, the problem is that SS is a tax - you are not guaranteed to get anything. The government owes you nothing :shrug:
There isn't any money to pay out.
Just think about it logically, too. The first generation who got SS did fantastically. They paid barely anything in and got so much money. Now, eventually someone's going to have to bite the bullet for that. It is either going to be one generation, or spread out over a few, but somebody is going to get ****ed by SS.
There's a person on this forum who brags about getting 10x more than he put in and what a great investment it was. The problem is that it ISN'T an investment. SS gets 'invested' into government bonds. Yay, we see interest on that, right? No, not really. The interest paid on those government bonds gets paid for by, guess who? Us, via other taxes.
So, the problem is that the SS 'fund' only generates 'interest' through other taxes. We end up paying for it anyway. Right now, there's a ton of liabilities, we're running a deficit (or soon will be, I forget which it is) on it and there's no end in sight. Reforming SS just means we're going to spread the burden across more generations until it ends up collapsing anyway and screwing over everyone who had yet to receive anything. Or, cut it now and screw over everyone who had yet to receive anything as of now.

SS isn't going to end well. For everyone under 50 now, it's a game of hot potato, but the ****ed up part is we're all left with the potato in the end. Let's look to see who wrote themselves checks, payable by their kids and grandkids.

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It is a tax but all taxes have laws and regulations. Some people are exempt from paying into SS... some people are exempt from paying federal income taxes. Just because it's collected in the form of a tax doesn't mean it's ok or legal... If the federal government doesn't repay us the federal government is essentially violating their contract with the people. It would be like putting somebody who wouldn't ordinary owe federal taxes in the 10% income bracket without changing the laws and forcing them to pay, because the federal government wants some more money.

I think the young should be allowed to opt out but also forfeit SS benefits. If you pay into a system that will never ever return that back to you then that's legalized theft in my opinion.

SheWolf said:

Oh please... I never said it was. I am not saying I expect anything from anybody, however, I come from a family and have the attitude that people should care for other people. I help people and I do volunteer work. It's not my obligation to donate money to Haiti but I did. It's not obligation to work in a support group and help survivors of rape and incest in my community, but I do.

I do those things, because I care about people and I care about my community. I am not forced to do by the government, and I am not arguing that it should be forced by the government. I simply feel it's my obligation as a human being to stop injustices.

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Well bully for you! You're not the only one who cares and does volunteer or charity work. However, that's the arena of te private citizen, not the responsibility of the government in forming a huge entitlement program under the erroneous assumption that people like you and me don't exist.

I am complaining that this is an institutionalized attitude that needs to be changed... of course I know nobody is really obligated to help anybody else. All I am saying is that I find your attitude to be ****ty, and why an 80 year eating cat food would look to the government to help her before looking for a good and willing Samaritans in her community to help her.

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Lady, you don't know the first thing about me. You don't spend time with me one Saturday and one Sunday a month working with the AIDS Project delivering meals to shut in patients. You don't write the checks that I write to three different local charities and you don't see the automatic drafts from my bank account each month for ongoing contributions to two more. I don't give a flying **** how you find my attitude toward this issue because, frankly, I find your attitude of looking to a nebulous, institutional and establishment entity to force people to do what they should be doing for themselves to be weak minded and lazy. I find your lack of faith in your fellow man to be ****ty and a big part of the problem that allowed the SS fiasco to start with.

You probably think liberals are the problem... when in fact, I think the liberals are trying to help because society is infected with people like you, not willing to help other people.

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I never made the first comment about conservatives or liberals but thank you very much for revealing what this discussion is to you: another chance to go stark raving mad with partisan cheerleading and condemnation of "the other guys". No wonder you have such little faith in your fellow man.

Once you're 18, your family isn't obligated to do **** for you.

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But it's somehow the government and society's obligation now? And you don't see a problem with this picture you are painting?

If you're 80 years old and eating cat food, you're parents are dead... and your kids might not give a **** about your old ass or have the money to support you.

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Then I would say there's a systemic problem in your family and the way you raised your kids.

People don't want to feel like a burden at any stage in their life... When you're old, you lose your independence...

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You're gonna do that whether you're getting written a government check every month or not. How much more independent, though, to be surrounded by loved ones and to rely on the lifetime of bonding and love you built with those closest to you instead of relying on an inefficient government to come through with a promise it may or may not be able to keep?

I know you don't care about your community or anybody else but your own... We have established your ****ty attitude is far from being a solution to these issues.

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You don't know jack ****, apparently. Caring for one's own is an expression of love and loyalty you apparently don't know **** about either.

It is societies problem... Again, you are mistaken if you think ignoring the impoverished isn't going to affect you.

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No one said to ignore the impoverished.

You can beat your drum on and on about this all you want,

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And you can cry and whine about the elderly holocaust that never happened all you want...

but they have a right to vote and they might as well ignore your lecturing and scolding and vote for more social assistance if nothing else is done.

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And I have every right to make arguments for my viewpoint and join together in voting blocks with others who feel the same way I do. And hopefully, make SS a thing of the past one day.

Then all you'll be able to do is keep repeating this tried old rhetoric, and repeating it, and repeating it... because you have nothing to offer.

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[/QUOTE]

And all you'll be able to do is keep crying and whining...and cryig and whining because you aren't getting your government check in the mail anymore and might actually have to stand on your own two feet for once.

OhIsee.Then said:

I really liked your post. It was dead on illustrative of the trouble you and most others are in. You need to be saving much more than SS taxes are taking from your check. Your daddy is financing you so your savings are essentially negative. When do you think you will start saving for retirement? Your daddy is essentially paying your SS taxes. Good thing too since you don’t know how to save yet and may never learn. Are you full time this year? How much do you expect to earn upon graduation? You can spend all of $50,000/year net w/o saving a bit for retirement. You wrote “I look at how expensive things are and then look at my paycheck and wonder how people are supposed to make ends meet without the help of others.” Hey, those others need to retire too. If we all had a Daddy we wouldn’t need SS; but there aren’t enough Daddies to go around. Are you spending your Daddy’s retirement? Is he just going to be left with a too small SS check at retirement?

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I have a lot in savings actually but it is in the form of loans I took out, put in a bank, and am making money off of it so when I graduate I will end up being able to pay it all back all at once and have made some money in the process. I do know how to save. My dad is an accountant as is my boyfriend. They have taught me well and continue to do so. I am not working right now because with my class schedule it is not feasible. I am looking for an internship for this summer or may just volunteer in my field so I can make money when I graduate. Considering I am majoring in Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering, I would hope I make a considerable amount of money once I graduate. I will know how to save and I plan on paying my father back over time. I realize I am very lucky to be in the family I am in. My dad makes a considerable amount of money so what he is paying me a month is very little. He will have money for retirement and by the time he is ready to do that I plan on being in a place where, if necessary, I can help him out.

My boyfriend's dad did not plan at all for retirement. He worked at the university here and retires next friday. The only reason he has any money to spend during his retirement his because of his ex wife and his son who helped him. I do not think the government should be responsible for his retirement, he should have planned ahead but I'm fairly certain no one taught him along the way, when he was younger how to save. I think that is the key to most of the problems today. Educate people and we could all be fine.

SheWolf said:

My dad is physically disabled... I support him, he doesn't support me.

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Well bully for you again. Clearly her dad is in a position to help her. and good that he is. It's what a dad in his position should do.

SheWolf said:

That's enough emotional, hyperbole and exaggeration of what I said. If you want to keep living in a fantasy world, that's your prerogative.

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I'm not the one trying to emotionally extort capitulation for my arguments with fantasies about elderly people starving in the streets now am I?

SheWolf said:

It is a tax but all taxes have laws and regulations. Some people are exempt from paying into SS... some people are exempt from paying federal income taxes. Just because it's collected in the form of a tax doesn't mean it's ok or legal... If the federal government doesn't repay us the federal government is essentially violating their contract with the people. It would be like putting somebody who wouldn't ordinary owe federal taxes in the 10% income bracket without changing the laws and forcing them to pay, because the federal government wants some more money.

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That's exactly what it would be like (your last sentence). By the way, they can do it anytime they like. It's also like putting someone who would ordinarily owe 25% in the 35% bracket - all it takes is a simple change of tax law because the government wants/needs more money.

If the federal govt. doesn't repay you, they're not violating any contract because they never promised you anything...
Like I said, SOMEONE is going to have to bite the bullet on this. They don't HAVE any money to give out. You already paid in the money. It's not their anymore. This can be solved by the current working generations getting screwed, our kids' generation getting screwed or raising taxes overall and letting everyone get screwed.

lovetosing4678 said:

I have a lot in savings actually but it is in the form of loans I took out, put in a bank, and am making money off of it so when I graduate I will end up being able to pay it all back all at once and have made some money in the process. I do know how to save. My dad is an accountant as is my boyfriend. They have taught me well and continue to do so. I am not working right now because with my class schedule it is not feasible. I am looking for an internship for this summer or may just volunteer in my field so I can make money when I graduate. Considering I am majoring in Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering, I would hope I make a considerable amount of money once I graduate. I will know how to save and I plan on paying my father back over time. I realize I am very lucky to be in the family I am in. My dad makes a considerable amount of money so what he is paying me a month is very little. He will have money for retirement and by the time he is ready to do that I plan on being in a place where, if necessary, I can help him out.

My boyfriend's dad did not plan at all for retirement. He worked at the university here and retires next friday. The only reason he has any money to spend during his retirement his because of his ex wife and his son who helped him. I do not think the government should be responsible for his retirement, he should have planned ahead but I'm fairly certain no one taught him along the way, when he was younger how to save. I think that is the key to most of the problems today. Educate people and we could all be fine.

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That's awesome. They didn't have aerospace engineering at columbia, so I ended up doing applied math. Are you planning on doing aeronautical, astronautical or something more in the mechanical field?

Nonplussed said:

Well bully for you! You're not the only one who cares and does volunteer or charity work. However, that's the arena of te private citizen, not the responsibility of the government in forming a huge entitlement program under the erroneous assumption that people like you and me don't exist.

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Again,

STOP LECTURING ME

Why do you insist on repeating the very things I said???

I guess so you miss the bigger point I was trying to make.... :roll:

Lady, you don't know the first thing about me. You don't spend time with me one Saturday and one Sunday a month working with the AIDS Project delivering meals to shut in patients. You don't write the checks that I write to three different local charities and you don't see the automatic drafts from my bank account each month for ongoing contributions to two more. I don't give a flying **** how you find my attitude toward this issue because, frankly, I find your attitude of looking to a nebulous, institutional and establishment entity to force people to do what they should be doing for themselves to be weak minded and lazy. I find your lack of faith in your fellow man to be ****ty and a big part of the problem that allowed the SS fiasco to start with.

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Force people.... I never advocated any of the such. Again, maybe you should read my posts before writing your responses.

I do have a lack of faith in the fellow man... The inaction of people is more a problem than my faith in it, and when I read your selfish statements about 80 year olds eating cat food it kind of reinforces that image I have of people. If you really care about your community as much as you claim, then why is so difficult for you to understand where I come from? I don't want to see an 80 year old eat cat food. I would do something about that myself. I expect other people to do it as well. I don't expect the government to force it.

I never made the first comment about conservatives or liberals but thank you very much for revealing what this discussion is to you: another chance to go stark raving mad with partisan cheerleading and condemnation of "the other guys". No wonder you have such little faith in your fellow man.

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Look around the ****ing world and at the state of this country... it's pretty apparent that there is a lack of action and good will.

But it's somehow the government and society's obligation now? And you don't see a problem with this picture you are painting?

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Again, I never said it's governments obligation... :roll:

Then I would say there's a systemic problem in your family and the way you raised your kids.

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It's not my family... It's just not an uncommon occurrence that people don't have the money to support three generations of their family, especially in this economy. Other times people are selfish you know, and the government doesn't enforce us to care, love, or help our parents.

You're gonna do that whether you're getting written a government check every month or not. How much more independent, though, to be surrounded by loved ones and to rely on the lifetime of bonding and love you built with those closest to you instead of relying on an inefficient government to come through with a promise it may or may not be able to keep?

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Ok... you probably live in some pro (heterosexual, pro life, religious) family values bubble, right?

Well, maybe we just come from two different worlds because I happen to be involved with survivors of incest and abuse... I know a lot of people from very dysfunctional family backgrounds. Some people don't have the luxury of depending on a family that treats with basic respect or kindness.

You don't know jack ****, apparently. Caring for one's own is an expression of love and loyalty you apparently don't know **** about either.

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Some people don't know about loving families... it doesn't make them ignorant or stupid. It's just a fact of reality.

And you can cry and whine about the elderly holocaust that never happened all you want...

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You're still clinging to this strawman?

And I have every right to make arguments for my viewpoint and join together in voting blocks with others who feel the same way I do. And hopefully, make SS a thing of the past one day.

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It's ideal that society could do away with SS and everybody would have a comfortable life, which is something I would throw my support behind and help make the necessary changes myself. It will take community involvement and caring for the 80 year olds eating cat food, and it will take rebuilding everybody's faith in man and in the community.

Lecturing people and telling us that you're not obligated to give a ****, isn't going to accomplish anything.

And all you'll be able to do is keep crying and whining...and cryig and whining because you aren't getting your government check in the mail anymore and might actually have to stand on your own two feet for once.

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I have never received a check from the government.... For somebody crying about assumptions, you're quick to make them yourself.

iamitter said:

That's exactly what it would be like (your last sentence). By the way, they can do it anytime they like. It's also like putting someone who would ordinarily owe 25% in the 35% bracket - all it takes is a simple change of tax law because the government wants/needs more money.

If the federal govt. doesn't repay you, they're not violating any contract because they never promised you anything...
Like I said, SOMEONE is going to have to bite the bullet on this. They don't HAVE any money to give out. You already paid in the money. It's not their anymore. This can be solved by the current working generations getting screwed, our kids' generation getting screwed or raising taxes overall and letting everyone get screwed.

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My last sentence said... without changing the tax law... The SS tax isn't a general federal tax, it's a SS tax. That's the difference... To spend the SS tax on everything, especially after making individuals and business owners pay twice into the tax funds for a specific purpose, and not repay it would be a gross abuse of the tax law.. We should expect more from our government than this.

SheWolf said:

My last sentence said... without changing the tax law... The SS tax isn't a general federal tax, it's a SS tax. That's the difference... To spend the SS tax on everything, especially after making individuals and business owners pay twice into the tax funds for a specific purpose, and not repay it would be a gross abuse of the tax law.. We should expect more from our government than this.

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Given the nature of SS, if it was ended, in my opinion the tax would have to be ended as well and the SS fund be paided out in rebates to those that have paid into it (proportionally based on what individuals have paid into it)

Which of course would result in a massive tax increase as the government does not have the money currently to pay out the few trillion dollars that the SS has in reserve ( currently held as US bonds)

SheWolf said:

My last sentence said... without changing the tax law... The SS tax isn't a general federal tax, it's a SS tax. That's the difference... To spend the SS tax on everything, especially after making individuals and business owners pay twice into the tax funds for a specific purpose, and not repay it would be a gross abuse of the tax law.. We should expect more from our government than this.

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Yeah, but a principled stand won't work with our government. We don't have any money to dish out. It is a gross abuse... but its going to happen sooner or later. That's the problem with SS paying out so much money to people who didn't pay it in earlier. The govt. is either going to start taking a lot more now to dish out less later or just tell us to piss off. We're getting screwed one way or another.