Should we Eliminate Social Security?

Catawba · Apr 19, 2011

Helvidius said:
The Great Depression had nothing to do with taxes. It was Federal Reserve policy that killed the economy. Nothing our government could do about it. It also didn't help that Hoover greatly increased federal spending during his term in office.

Most social programs in the 1930s didn't have a lasting effect on the US economy (a few exceptions such as the FHA), nor did many have a positive one. The strongest middle class came during and after the war. America went from producing war goods to consumer goods almost overnight. This caused an economic boom. There was also a desire to house veterans which helped lead to the growth of suburbs.

"Top 5 Causes of the Great Depression

What caused the Great Depression, the worst economic depression in US history? It was not just one factor, but instead a combination of domestic and worldwide conditions that led to the Great Depression. As such, there is no agreed upon list of all its causes. Here instead is a list of the top reasons that historians and economists have cited as causing the Great Depression.

The effects of the Great Depression was huge across the world. Not only did it lead to the New Deal in America but more significantly, it was a direct cause of the rise of extremism in Germany leading to World War II.
1. Stock Market Crash of 1929
Many believe erroneously that the stock market crash that occurred on Black Tuesday, October 29, 1929 is one and the same with the Great Depression. In fact, it was one of the major causes that led to the Great Depression. Two months after the original crash in October, stockholders had lost more than $40 billion dollars. Even though the stock market began to regain some of its losses, by the end of 1930, it just was not enough and America truly entered what is called the Great Depression.

2. Bank Failures
Throughout the 1930s over 9,000 banks failed. Bank deposits were uninsured and thus as banks failed people simply lost their savings. Surviving banks, unsure of the economic situation and concerned for their own survival, stopped being as willing to create new loans. This exacerbated the situation leading to less and less expenditures.
3. Reduction in Purchasing Across the Board
With the stock market crash and the fears of further economic woes, individuals from all classes stopped purchasing items. This then led to a reduction in the number of items produced and thus a reduction in the workforce. As people lost their jobs, they were unable to keep up with paying for items they had bought through installment plans and their items were repossessed. More and more inventory began to accumulate. The unemployment rate rose above 25% which meant, of course, even less spending to help alleviate the economic situation.
4. American Economic Policy with Europe
As businesses began failing, the government created the Smoot-Hawley Tariff in 1930 to help protect American companies. This charged a high tax for imports thereby leading to less trade between America and foreign countries along with some economic retaliation.
5. Drought Conditions
While not a direct cause of the Great Depression, the drought that occurred in the Mississippi Valley in 1930 was of such proportions that many could not even pay their taxes or other debts and had to sell their farms for no profit to themselves. This was the topic of John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath."
Great Depression - Top Five Causes of the Great Depression

Catawba · Apr 19, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
I'm quite aware of what it is.
Any other organization would be legally obligated to present it as a valid debt, but the good ole U.S. government can play dishonest and not do the same thing.

Weird that you support dishonesty.

I don't support it. I voted for the guy who proposed locking the funds so they couldn't be used to offset other spending. Who did you vote for?

The point is the SS system itself is extremely well managed and does what it was intended to do, as it has for the last 80 years.

Harry Guerrilla · Apr 19, 2011

Catawba said:
I don't support it. I voted for the guy who proposed locking the funds so they couldn't be used to offset other spending. Who did you vote for?

The point is the SS system itself is extremely well managed and does what it was intended to do, as it has for the last 80 years.

If it was extremely well managed the money wouldn't have been spent to cause an internal government debt.

CaptainCourtesy · Apr 19, 2011

Moderator's Warning:

Henrin has been thread banned,

Helvidius · Apr 19, 2011

Catawba said:
"Top 5 Causes of the Great Depression

What caused the Great Depression, the worst economic depression in US history? It was not just one factor, but instead a combination of domestic and worldwide conditions that led to the Great Depression. As such, there is no agreed upon list of all its causes. Here instead is a list of the top reasons that historians and economists have cited as causing the Great Depression.

The effects of the Great Depression was huge across the world. Not only did it lead to the New Deal in America but more significantly, it was a direct cause of the rise of extremism in Germany leading to World War II.
1. Stock Market Crash of 1929
Many believe erroneously that the stock market crash that occurred on Black Tuesday, October 29, 1929 is one and the same with the Great Depression. In fact, it was one of the major causes that led to the Great Depression. Two months after the original crash in October, stockholders had lost more than $40 billion dollars. Even though the stock market began to regain some of its losses, by the end of 1930, it just was not enough and America truly entered what is called the Great Depression.

2. Bank Failures
Throughout the 1930s over 9,000 banks failed. Bank deposits were uninsured and thus as banks failed people simply lost their savings. Surviving banks, unsure of the economic situation and concerned for their own survival, stopped being as willing to create new loans. This exacerbated the situation leading to less and less expenditures.
3. Reduction in Purchasing Across the Board
With the stock market crash and the fears of further economic woes, individuals from all classes stopped purchasing items. This then led to a reduction in the number of items produced and thus a reduction in the workforce. As people lost their jobs, they were unable to keep up with paying for items they had bought through installment plans and their items were repossessed. More and more inventory began to accumulate. The unemployment rate rose above 25% which meant, of course, even less spending to help alleviate the economic situation.
4. American Economic Policy with Europe
As businesses began failing, the government created the Smoot-Hawley Tariff in 1930 to help protect American companies. This charged a high tax for imports thereby leading to less trade between America and foreign countries along with some economic retaliation.
5. Drought Conditions
While not a direct cause of the Great Depression, the drought that occurred in the Mississippi Valley in 1930 was of such proportions that many could not even pay their taxes or other debts and had to sell their farms for no profit to themselves. This was the topic of John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath."
Great Depression - Top Five Causes of the Great Depression

Eh, I question your source. Your source is from someone who majored in history, not economics. The Stock Market Crash isn't relevant to the Great Depression. The run on banks is essentially what I had said. The Federal Reserve acts as a lender of last resort so as to prevent bank runs. However, the policies of the Federal Reserve did nothing to prevent such banks runs in the 1930s. Also, the Weimar Republican was hit with hyperinflation well before the Great Depression and I consider that and the Treaty of Versailles to be the two biggest causes of the Nazi Party takeover.

Bernanke: Federal Reserve caused Great Depression

Harry Guerrilla · Apr 19, 2011

Helvidius said:
Eh, I question your source. Your source is from someone who majored in history, not economics. The Stock Market Crash isn't relevant to the Great Depression. The run on banks is essentially what I had said. The Federal Reserve acts as a lender of last resort so as to prevent bank runs. However, the policies of the Federal Reserve did nothing to prevent such banks runs in the 1930s. Also, the Weimar Republican was hit with hyperinflation well before the Great Depression and I consider that and the Treaty of Versailles to be the two biggest causes of the Nazi Party takeover.

Bernanke: Federal Reserve caused Great Depression

You'll notice that many historians go along with the safe answers instead of the researched answers.
That's why so many people believe utter nonsense about America.

haymarket · Apr 19, 2011

from Henrin

a statement in the U.S. constitution (Article I, Section 8) granting Congress the power to pass all laws necessary and proper for carrying out the enumerated list of powers.

except it DOES NOT say that. That is twisting it to say what you interpret to say.

Repeter gave us the word for word language

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Changing those words then change their meaning in doing so.

You can believe what ever you want to believe.. You cannot change the Constitution to say what ever you want it to say.

cpwill · Apr 19, 2011

Catawba said:
Nope, you do. The Great Depression began in 1929 and the social programs that created the strongest middle class began in the 30's.

the spending and taxing of the 30's is what helped keep us in the Depression named Great. The Recession that LED to this Depression was worsened by precisely the kind of federal meddling in the marketplace that typified the New Deal.

...The Roaring Twenties were a time of unprecedented prosperity. GNP expanded year after year without inflation. Productivity improved, and real wages increased. The stock market tripled. There was a dramatic expansion of the middle class. The Great Migration occurred during the 1920s, with some 7 million African-Americans moving north for better schools and job opportunities. Women had the vote. Millions of Americans began to buy cars, originally a luxury of the rich. People bought radios that enabled ordinary people to hear the finest entertainers in their own homes. Movies became popular. Frozen food made possible a more varied diet year-round. Doctors developed new medicines to fight deadly diseases like diphtheria and tuberculosis.

While Harding can hardly be considered a champion of laissez-faire economics (he supported tariffs, after all), the pro-growth policies he implemented are directly responsible for the astonishingly rapid growth in prosperity— and widely shared prosperity— America enjoyed throughout the Roaring 20s...

Every time the American people have been suckered into lowering the taxes on the wealty it ends the same way, in a recession. How did the 20's end up?

the 20's did fine. what didn't do fine was when the Government attempted to change that formula by increasing regulation, increasing spending, increasing taxation, and increasing protectionism. those items kicked in under Hoovers' administration; and turned a Recession into a Depression. They then got turbo charged under FDR, and turned a Depression Great.

The 50's only required one bread winner in the family to stay above the poverty line

:shrug: so did the 90's and 2011. Today's families have higher standards of living off of one bread winner than families in the 50's did.

today more and more of the middle class are sliding into poverty with both parents working

a descriptor without a metric. it could be met with anything, irrespective of relevance or significance. in the 1950's more and more of the poor were committing suicide.

We narrowly avoided another Deoression through the stimulus spending

on the contrary, the Stimulus has objectively made things worse, through the divertment of capital from productive to unproductive uses. you may have noticed how unemployment went way higher than it's originators forecast? thats' because their assumptions - their theory - are wrong.

and we've had multiple wars that have lasted much longer than WWII

Vietnam, for example, which lasted about 15 years. Korea is another - that war has been going on now well past its' fifth decade.

I'm all for massive cuts in spending. Let's start by reducing our military spending by one fifth and ending our optional wars.

so when Republicans call for $178 Bn in cuts of DOD spending in their 2012 budget - which is a little more than a fifth - , are you worried they are cutting too much?

Look at what our military spending level was in the 50's.

it was much, much larger than todays.

Fiscal Year Military spending as percent of GDP
1940 1.7
1941 5.6
1942 17.8
1943 37.0
1944 37.8
1945 37.5
1946 19.2
1947 5.5
1948 3.5
1949 4.8
1950 5.0
1951 7.4
1952 13.2
1953 14.2
1954 13.1
1955 10.8
1956 10.0
1957 10.1
1958 10.2
1959 10.0
1960 9.3
1961 9.4
1962 9.2
1963 8.9
1964 8.5
1965 7.4
1966 7.7
1967 8.8
1968 9.4
1969 8.7
1970 8.1

It [Social Security] is not running a deficit

Social Security Runs Deficit : Will Pay Out $45B More Than It Collects

CBO: Social Security now to run permanent deficits

Social security deficit in 2011 and beyond

If you find evidence to support that claim be sure to let me know.

Why Raising Social Security’s Tax Cap Wouldn’t Eliminate Its Shortfall

Yep, and he was absolutely correct. How can we expect a representative government to be smarter than the group of people they come from?

well, that was the intent of a Republic (or at least, one of the intents). the wisest friend I have in history insists that we peaked as a nation in 1789, and it's all been downhill since then.

repeter · Apr 19, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
FDR threatened to pack the courts with people that would rubber stamp his policies.
I wouldn't call it constitutional with that in mind.

That scheme failed, and was never implemented, therefore the integrity of the court remained intact.

repeter · Apr 19, 2011

Henrin said:
Can you tell me how its necessary for the country? Just wondering.

I will say this what I said earlier about me correcting myself you seemed to ignore. In order for something to be necessary it has to do more than just be something you need.

I don't need SS, and would be better off without it. The logic at the time was people are too busy with living life, and getting through to retirement to wonder about what happens when they do retire. SS helped those people by doing what they wouldn't have thought of doing at the time: saving money. Now, I disagree with exactly how SS works, but for its time, it was a great idea that did wonders for people.

Now, like affirmative action, its past its sell by date, and needs to be phased out before it starts doing more harm than good.

repeter · Apr 19, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
If it was extremely well managed the money wouldn't have been spent to cause an internal government debt.

Not exactly sure you could attribute that to SS. You could attribute that to stupid, inefficient government as a whole.

repeter · Apr 19, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
So what?
That doesn't mean it was right.

Its not jsut the fact that it hasn't been overturned, it hasn't even been challenged in a serious way before, at least not that I've ever heard. Given its 70 year history, I would think that somewhere along the line it becomes evident it is constitutional for any number of reasons.

Harry Guerrilla said:
It does give me power, it says so right there in the Constitution.
The powers not delegated to the government are delegated to the states or the people.

I am one of the people.

And those powers are very, very limited. It does not include the power to determine the constitutionality of legislative/executive actions.

Harry Guerrilla said:
I find it so ironic that you decry Bush, yet support a president who was infinitely more fascist than Bush ever was or could be. :doh

Its more than what they were, it was what we needed at the time. Back then, we needed a level of facist control over the country, and we needed someone to take charge.

We didn't need that now, though we needed it to a small extent following 9/11 IMO, and we got it.

sazerac · Apr 19, 2011

repeter said:
I don't need SS, and would be better off without it. The logic at the time was people are too busy with living life, and getting through to retirement to wonder about what happens when they do retire. SS helped those people by doing what they wouldn't have thought of doing at the time: saving money. Now, I disagree with exactly how SS works, but for its time, it was a great idea that did wonders for people.

Now, like affirmative action, its past its sell by date, and needs to be phased out before it starts doing more harm than good.

So you don't like the idea of someone matching your savings deposits.?

My dad matched all my savings and I had a nice car at 16. I'm for it.

repeter · Apr 19, 2011

sazerac said:
So you don't like the idea of someone matching your savings deposits.?

My dad matched all my savings and I had a nice car at 16. I'm for it.

As a child I like the idea, however when I become an adult, I would say I need to be responsible for myself. And I don't have any disabilities or problems that prevent me from taking care of myself without external care of some sort. The biggest thing about SS to me thats wrong with it is the precedent it sets. It coddles people, and we need to become more independent, and more aware of our economic states rather than less, which is what SS encourages, IMO.

iamitter · Apr 19, 2011

repeter said:
Its not jsut the fact that it hasn't been overturned, it hasn't even been challenged in a serious way before, at least not that I've ever heard. Given its 70 year history, I would think that somewhere along the line it becomes evident it is constitutional for any number of reasons.

And those powers are very, very limited. It does not include the power to determine the constitutionality of legislative/executive actions.

Its more than what they were, it was what we needed at the time. Back then, we needed a level of facist control over the country, and we needed someone to take charge.

We didn't need that now, though we needed it to a small extent following 9/11 IMO, and we got it.

Its not our powers that are limited its the governments. Theirs are limited and ours encompass everything beyond that.

justabubba · Apr 19, 2011

iamitter said:
Its not our powers that are limited its the governments. Theirs are limited and ours encompass everything beyond that.

then it's settled. the people have the opportunity to overturn anything the government has enacted which the puublic opposes

and regarding the topic subject of the social security program, the public (nor the court) has done so

that pretty much extinguishes the opposition's arguments. thanks for the help

Taylor · Apr 19, 2011

sazerac said:
So you don't like the idea of someone matching your savings deposits.?

My dad matched all my savings and I had a nice car at 16. I'm for it.

What does saving have to do with social security?

repeter · Apr 19, 2011

iamitter said:
Its not our powers that are limited its the governments. Theirs are limited and ours encompass everything beyond that.

Our powers to interfere with the workings of the government after we've established it by elections is limited.

iamitter · Apr 19, 2011

repeter said:
Our powers to interfere with the workings of the government after we've established it by elections is limited.

False. Elected officials do not have the right to do anything they please.

iamitter · Apr 19, 2011

justabubba said:
then it's settled. the people have the opportunity to overturn anything the government has enacted which the puublic opposes

and regarding the topic subject of the social security program, the public (nor the court) has done so

that pretty much extinguishes the opposition's arguments. thanks for the help

I frankly do not understand what you are arguing here. The people have overturned ss?

justabubba · Apr 19, 2011

iamitter said:
I frankly do not understand what you are arguing here. The people have overturned ss?

that they haven't despite, your acknowledgment that they (we the people) have the power to do so should they believe that course of action is needed

since they can, but have not been inclined to do so, should be ample indication that this social security program is not found unConstitutional by the courts or the public

iamitter · Apr 19, 2011

justabubba said:
that they haven't despite, your acknowledgment that they (we the people) have the power to do so should they believe that course of action is needed

since they can, but have not been inclined to do so, should be ample indication that this social security program is not found unConstitutional by the courts or the public

Hard to do so when you're not the one with the guns.

justabubba · Apr 19, 2011

iamitter said:
Hard to do so when you're not the one with the guns.

i am confused (admittedly, a frequent state). do you stand by the above post or this one?

iamitter said:
Its not our powers that are limited its the governments. Theirs are limited and ours encompass everything beyond that.

repeter · Apr 19, 2011

iamitter said:
False. Elected officials do not have the right to do anything they please.

I never said that. I said the people's power to disrupt the government after they've established it by voting is limited. That means we can't do whatever we want. The Constitution already establishes the extent of the government's power, but that is a somewhat seperate subject.

Harry Guerrilla · Apr 19, 2011

repeter said:
That scheme failed, and was never implemented, therefore the integrity of the court remained intact.

It succeeded, the supreme court let him get away with his nonsense.

Should we Eliminate Social Security?

Should we Eliminate Social Security

Yes, no replacement

Yes, but with a replacement

No, we should wait until it goes bankrupt

No, its not going to go bankrupt

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