• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

Do you have to be proud of your country to be a good citizen?

  • Total voters
    52
Remember what "my country right or wrong" mentality leads to...
Its pure ignorant to cheer everything your country does on..
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
What nonsense.

If you believe another nation is superior to the United States, explain why you haven't relocated.
Click to expand...

First of all, it's meaningless to say that one nation is "superior" to another, because there are literally hundreds of different ways to measure a nation's standing in the world. No nation is the best at all of them.

As to why I haven't relocated: Because my friends and family are here, because I'm accustomed to American culture, because I like my job and I like DC, and because the switching costs are too high.

Mayor Snorkum said:
That the United States is superior to "other countries" cannot be denied. Sudan isn't the equal to the US. Nor is Saudi Arabia, Britain, Uganda, France, Zimbabwe, Germany, Brazil, Spain, Japan, Canada, China, Italy, Cambodia, or Russia.
Click to expand...

Many of those countries are superior to the US in certain variables, and the US is superior in other variables. For example, the US is one of the best countries in the world in terms of GDP per capita, macroeconomic stability and dynamism, multicultural tolerance, and civil liberties. But the US is also shockingly behind the curve in terms of health care, poverty, wealth disparity, and incarceration rates.

Furthermore, I don't see how this is supposed to give me a warm and fuzzy feeling of patriotism anyway. Suppose that what you said is true, and the US was somehow objectively the "most superior" nation. Why should *I* feel proud of that? I didn't write the Constitution, or elect the subsequent governments that caused the US to evolve in the way it has. I've only voted in two presidential elections and three congressional elections, and I've only worked for a few years, so my personal contribution to the US has been minimal. So why should I feel proud of the United States any more than someone who happened to have been born in Papua New Guinea would?
 
Last edited:
Fiddytree said:
I think that comment went a little far to say the least.
Click to expand...

The whole notion of "terrorism" is just an offshoot of the harmful nationalism/patriotism I'm talking about. That label is only applied to groups that the US doesn't like. If a group is doing the West's bidding through violent means - say, the Libyan rebels - they're lauded as freedom fighters rather than terrorists. Is it really that surprising when other cultures do the same for violent groups that they perceive as serving THEIR goals? I think that's why Hamas is often viewed favorably among Arabs, or why the LTTE was viewed favorably among Tamils. It's not because they're brainwashed or uneducated, it's because they fall victim to the same sort of blind patriotism that many Americans do. They assume that whatever their culture wants is inherently good, and that those who oppose it are evil.

Do you think that people living in rural Pakistan or Yemen give a damn whether US drones "intend" to kill civilians? They see Americans as a violent military force that is killing civilians to achieve political goals that are totally alien to them. Is that really so different from how Americans view groups like Hamas or Hezbollah?
 
Last edited:
I was complaining when I was young and my grandfather told me I had no right to complain because I was getting a free ride. My uncle, and others, died so I could live in the U.S. He said, that to be a good citizen you paid your taxes, voted, and did your time in the military when called.

I guess the problem now is that liberals think voting more than once in an election makes up for not paying taxes or doing their time in the military.
 
Patrickt said:
I was complaining when I was young and my grandfather told me I had no right to complain because I was getting a free ride. My uncle, and others, died so I could live in the U.S. He said, that to be a good citizen you paid your taxes, voted, and did your time in the military when called.

I guess the problem now is that liberals think voting more than once in an election makes up for not paying taxes or doing their time in the military.
Click to expand...

Except for the fact that most liberals pay their taxes and many join the military including my father, all of my uncles, one of my cousins and both of my grandfathers. Try harder.
 
Kandahar said:
First of all, it's meaningless to say that one nation is "superior" to another, because there are literally hundreds of different ways to measure a nation's standing in the world. No nation is the best at all of them.
Click to expand...

Then you explain how Sudan and Libya are "superior" to the United States, and the rest of us will laugh at you.
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
Then you explain how Sudan and Libya are "superior" to the United States, and the rest of us will laugh at you.
Click to expand...

OK, obviously you're more set on being a moron than on actually discussing the subject at hand. That's cool, to each his own. But I'm gonna stick to the topic. I already gave you several things that the US does quite well and several things that the US does not-so-well. Now, back to patriotism/nationalism.
 
Last edited:
Mayor Snorkum said:
Right.

The dead Americans don't count for anything in your estimation.
Click to expand...

How many times have we seen people on this forum blithely dismiss civilian casualties of American military action as "collateral damage"? Or mouth some platitude like "Yes, people die in war" to justify it? Yet when other cultures do the same thing to justify terrorism, you're all too eager to view them as monsters.
 
Kandahar said:
OK, obviously you're more set on being a moron than on actually discussing the subject at hand. That's cool, to each his own. But I'm gonna stick to the topic.
Click to expand...

No, morons think all subjective measures of merit are equal, and that there's no objective standard of measure to say one nation is superior to others.

No rational measure of values can place Sudan above the United States.
 
Kandahar said:
How many times have we seen people on this forum blithely dismiss civilian casualties of American military action as "collateral damage"? Or mouth some platitude like "Yes, people die in war" to justify it? Yet when other cultures do the same thing to justify terrorism, you're all too eager to view them as monsters.
Click to expand...

How many times does the Mayor have to point out that introducing irrelevancies doesn't alter the equation of the argument in your favor?

The Mayor has not condoned terrorism, the Mayor has condemned it. Your pursuit of non sequiturs is a waste of time and bandwidth.
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
No, morons think all subjective measures of merit are equal, and that there's no objective standard of measure to say one nation is superior to others.
Click to expand...

I think there are many objective measurements. But none of them is singularly the best at identifying a nation's overall superiority.

Mayor Snorkum said:
No rational measure of values can place Sudan above the United States.
Click to expand...

Cool. And when you find someone who is arguing that point with you, you'll be ready for them. :2wave:
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
How many times does the Mayor have to point out that introducing irrelevancies doesn't alter the equation of the argument in your favor?

The Mayor has not condoned terrorism, the Mayor has condemned it. Your pursuit of non sequiturs is a waste of time and bandwidth.
Click to expand...

Then what the hell are you even arguing with me about? My statement was specifically directed at those who use patriotism to justify American atrocities while also using it to demonize people in other cultures who do similar things. Let's not pretend that there isn't a substantial cohort of Americans who view the foreign policy goals of the US as inherently good, view those who oppose those goals as inherently evil, and are perfectly willing to excuse civilian casualties of American military action as "collateral damage" even though they would NEVER excuse civilian casualties of countries/groups they disliked.
 
Last edited:
Mayor Snorkum said:
The phrase you're now chasing is "moving the goal posts".
Click to expand...

No, I made that quite clear in post #102. You just chose to ignore everything but the first sentence of the post. I'm done responding to you, because you aren't being intellectually honest and aren't really even interested in discussing the subject at hand.
 
Mayor Snorkum said:
Well, one's debt to society consists of not being a burden. Paying taxes is only required for those taxes that fund Constitutional items. Finding creative ways to avoid paying the rest is perfectly moral.

If one isn't proud of the country they're living in, then why the hell didn't Michelle Obama move to whatever country it was that would make her happy?

To put the blunt point on the thrust of this particular thread.
Click to expand...

I think she thought she could keep working at it until she got in a position to do something about it. How 'bout you? What you doin' bout it, besides flappin' yo jaws?
 
Last edited:
A good citizen must be always proud on his country. Period.
 
megaprogman said:
Citizenship is a legal status and doesn't address the thrust of the question. The question is whether one is a good citizen. Good, of course, is fully a subjective term, so it depends on your point of view.
Click to expand...

Oh. I'm sorry I didn't pay attention.

I don't like this 'subjective' stuff, too ambiguous. :lol:

1. Legal compliance
Click to expand...
Objectively that is probably the most astute measure of a good citizen unless the laws are unfair, injust, or oppressive. A large portion of Americans would qualify as good citizens yet still engage in drug use. Dilemma there for example.

2. Be a moral person (don't seek to take advantage of people, no stealing, no killing, etc)
Click to expand...

Morality, though people would prefer not to view it in this way, is largely defined in our society by adherence to the law. There is no other, more solid measure of what we define as moral than that authority. That society can agree on, anyways.

3. Be an active member of something that betters the community (like a church or charity)
Click to expand...

Bettering the community is right and good and well. :)
But not mandatory, one can be a good hermit artist and seek betterment within themselves and still be good. No... come to think of it that doesnt benefit society unless art is contributed.

4. Civic obligations such as paying taxes, jury duty, the draft, etc
Click to expand...
Also falling into the moral/legal issue.
5. Holding a job
Click to expand...
Being a functional economic unit is also commendable. Though not always possible within some people's means.

6. (other things, the rest are just examples)
Click to expand...

The question is, should pride in one's country be on this sort of list?
Click to expand...

Often, the considerations of what makes a good citizen and the considerations of the state diverge. Can it be good to burn a flag? Yes, if you are screaming an injustice in mourning of it.

And now we descend into ambiguity and subjectivity.
 
SE102 said:
And now we descend into ambiguity and subjectivity.
Click to expand...

Bringing subjectivity and ambiguity into the discussion was intentional. I want to know how people feel about the subject and unless I explicitly define it for them, it has to be there to make room for people's views to be expressed.
 
Kandahar said:
I'm not proud of my country. In fact, I find the whole idea of patriotism to be outdated...and really not all that different from odious concepts like "white pride." Why would you be proud of something you have no control over? I mean, it was only an accident of birth that you were born where you were, instead of in the backwaters of Uganda. If you're an immigrant to your country, I can understand being proud of that accomplishment, but I still don't understand "pride in one's country."

What is there to be proud of? Some imperfect men (who aren't me) who happened to exist within the arbitrarily-defined borders of my "country" did some stuff a long time ago that led to the foundation of this country, over which I am nominally a part? I guess I could understand that THEY would have pride in their own accomplishments...but why would *I* be proud of it? I wasn't the one who did it.

I think that patriotism - like white nationalism - tends to be used to justify all sorts of harmful behavior against anyone who isn't part of the "in-group." Sometimes it's pretty blatant xenophobia ("I don't want to press 1 for English") and sometimes it's more subtle ("they hate us for our freedom"), but the end result is typically the same: Stupid actions that harm others for no discernible reason.
Click to expand...

Sorry no disrepect intended but your post is tripe, how can you compare being patriotic and loving ones country to being a neo nazi or a white supremist only a liberal could make that absurd connection
 
Last edited:
lpast said:
Sorry no disrepect intended but your post is tripe, how can you compare being patriotic and loving ones country to being a neo nazi or a white supremist only a liberal could make that absurd connection
Click to expand...

What's the point of being "proud" over an accident of birth, regardless of whether it's your nationality or your race? Why is it socially acceptable to say that we're proud of the accomplishments of our fellow Americans, whereas people would (rightly) be criticized for saying that they're proud of the accomplishments of their fellow whites?
 
Last edited:
megaprogman said:
Bringing subjectivity and ambiguity into the discussion was intentional. I want to know how people feel about the subject and unless I explicitly define it for them, it has to be there to make room for people's views to be expressed.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand. And here we are...

all ambiguous... and stuff.
 
theplaydrive said:
Except for the fact that most liberals pay their taxes and many join the military including my father, all of my uncles, one of my cousins and both of my grandfathers. Try harder.
Click to expand...

That's not hard. Most liberals don't pay their taxes. What percentage of the folks who pay no income tax, 47% of the people, are liberals? Most.

And I agree. There was a time before the socialist took over that liberals did join the military. Like your father, your uncles, one of your cousins, and your grandfathers. I'm proud of them. And you?

Why do you think the liberals work so hard to disenfranchize the military?
 
This really goes back to socialization. Something that happens before we're even born and continues to develop and evolve us into who we are until the moment we die. It is our entire life and how the things around us effect us.

To answer the question: Yes I am proud of my country, but no, you do not have to be proud of it to be a good citizen. Look at it like this.

Within a family, we are born into it and grow up. While growing up, many of us are taught the importance of protecting our family name and wearing it with pride. It is a part of who defines us. The clean image that it carries will open doors that might otherwise be closed had it been tarnished by prior generations.

That pride is instilled in us when we are small and we are expected to carry it forward in our lives. However, as time presses forward things beyond our control can and do happen. A cousin who wears that same last name might be arrested for an embarrassing crime. Let's say he urinated in the Mayor's beer and deficated in the councilman's soup.

Okay, that would be pretty embarrassing if the paper ran the headline as:

"Jones Takes Dump in Councilman Soup While Refilling Mayor's Coffee!" I don't know, you come up with one.

At any rate, the surname of Jones has now been tarnished by someone and that tarnishing was completely and totally ut of your control. Obviously your not proud of your drunken cousin's behavior and this might lower the pride you have for your name, but it does not make you a bad member of the family. You will still defend your family and do all the things that are expected of you, regardless of what your cousin did.

Now, you might not be proud of everything your country has done, but does that mean you won't defend your country in it's time of need? I think we'd be hard pressed to find anyone who will not stand up to defend their country when the immediate situation confronts them. Only a true coward would allow others to harm their family as they stood by and the same holds true for our country, in my opin.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom