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Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social programs?

Do you agree with Obama?

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Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
You'd be surprised what a little hope does in the hood.
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I lived in the hood so I know this, but people are not clones. Not everyone acts or thinks like you or I. Again your answer is simplistic and takes into account no variables at all other than your anecdotal life experience.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

theplaydrive said:
How does this prove anything I've said wrong? You got out and that's supposed to prove the education system in poor areas is amazing?

It's also funny that you can never debate people without veering off topic into nonsensical accusations - "socialist paradigm"? I'm talking about making education better - focus.
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No you're not. You're trying to find reasons other than welfare to blame on the perpetuation of poverty. If our social programs work so well, why are there still poor Americans?
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

Blackdog said:
I lived in the hood so I know this, but people are not clones. Not everyone acts or thinks like you or I. Again your answer is simplistic and takes into account no variables at all other than your anecdotal life experience.
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Of course there are variables, I agree. From what I saw personally, however, welfare is the most effective agent in the perpetuation of poverty.

We could spend all day talking about drugs, mentorship...parenting, etc...but these are mostly symptoms.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
Oh I certainly won't call them Amazing. You get what you pay for...they are sufficient, though, to get anyone out of the hood that wants to get out.
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And then we're back where we started. Why don't people want to get out?

Your answer is social welfare problems. My answer is poverty. Obviously some social welfare problems encourage lack of ambition, which is why I support some version of "workfare" or a time limit on welfare. Nonetheless, social welfare is not the sole, or even the biggest, factor; it's the culture that poverty creates. Some people get out that culture, just like some people in wealthy environments get out of theirs and end up dirt poor. Nonetheless, general rules hold for both cultures and the general rules for people in poverty go far beyond social welfare.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
No you're not. You're trying to find reasons other than welfare to blame on the perpetuation of poverty. If our social programs work so well, why are there still poor Americans?
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I think poverty perpetuates itself just fine without social programs. Poverty has existed throughout the whole history of human civilization, with or without social programs.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
No you're not. You're trying to find reasons other than welfare to blame on the perpetuation of poverty. If our social programs work so well, why are there still poor Americans?
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I've admitted in several threads that social welfare is a problem - which I why I want revisions. I just acknowledge that poverty would exist without social welfare programs - this means that social welfare is neither the sole nor the biggest problem.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

theplaydrive said:
And then we're back where we started. Why don't people want to get out?
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Lack of ambition. Why would they want to work a job that pays them less than welfare?

Your answer is social welfare problems. My answer is poverty. Obviously some social welfare problems encourage lack of ambition, which is why I support some version of "workfare" or a time limit on welfare. Nonetheless, social welfare is not the sole, or even the biggest, factor; it's the culture that poverty creates. Some people get out that culture, just like some people in wealthy environments get out of theirs and end up dirt poor. Nonetheless, general rules hold for both cultures and the general rules for people in poverty go far beyond social welfare.
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Poverty has no means of perpetuating itself. There is no glamour too it, no attraction. Poverty is caused...not replicated.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
I think poverty perpetuates itself just fine without social programs. Poverty has existed throughout the whole history of human civilization, with or without social programs.
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For different reasons....now...the reason is mainly (too be fair) social wlefare programs.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

This is a personal opinion of mine - one that I've held for awhile but rarely shared by others. How many people here consider the military a "social program?" I do. Not a "socialist" or a "welfare" program, mind you, but a social program in that it provides opportunities for some to climb the socioeconomic ladder that they might otherwise not have.
 
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Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
No you're not. You're trying to find reasons other than welfare to blame on the perpetuation of poverty. If our social programs work so well, why are there still poor Americans?
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????

There are other reasons besides welfare....

#1 We live in a nation that is capitalistic. Poor and rich are consequences of that.
#2 Some unfortunate citizens are just not that bright and will never earn more than minimum wage.
#3 Some are born into poverty and see no way out.

Many more reasons exist for poverty, their is no one answer.

The reason poor blacks exist? Again many reasons and most do not involve welfare. I mean why did poor people exist before welfare? Why do we have poor people in nations without welfare? I mean please, use logic.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

MaggieD said:
Define great. ;)

I think a country can be judged, just like a person, by how "he treats the least of us." I would hate to live in a country that didn't care enough for its poor or its seniors to provide them with the basic necessities of life.
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Why don't you provide for your parents instead of expecting others to provide for them?
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
For different reasons....now...the reason is mainly (too be fair) social wlefare programs.
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I don't disagree with you mac that welfare programs promote a "handout" or "entitlement" culture, so to speak. But is it really your opinion that poverty in this country would decrease if you got rid of TANF, other welfare programs, etc?
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
This is a personal opinion of mine - one that I've held for awhile but rarely shared by others. How many people here consider the military a "social program?" I do. Not a "socialist" or a "welfare" program, mind you, but a social program in that it provides opportunities for some to climb the socioeconomic ladder that they might otherwise not have.
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I understand what you are saying. I don't consider it one despite the fact that it offers nearly every American a means to raise above poverty. The reason I say it is not is that it provides a career...a career in which one must strive very hard to hold on too.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
I don't disagree with you mac that welfare programs promote a "handout" or "entitlement" culture, so to speak. But is it really your opinion that poverty in this country would decrease if you got rid of TANF, other welfare programs, etc?
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I think that if you took the money from social welfare and put it into education, then we would cure the problem. I would even go so far as having schools feed children on our dime if they are attending and succeeding.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
Of course there are variables, I agree. From what I saw personally, however, welfare is the most effective agent in the perpetuation of poverty.
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Anecdotal evidence accounts for little in the realm of debate other than an opinion. The facts and logic directly contradict your opinion.

mac said:
We could spend all day talking about drugs, mentorship...parenting, etc...but these are mostly symptoms.
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Drugs are a symptom, parenting is not nor in mentoring.

We are not talking about "symptoms" we are talking about causes.

Poverty is an exceptionally complicated social phenomenon, and trying to discover its causes is equally complicated. The stereotypic (and simplistic) explanation persists—that the poor cause their own poverty—based on the notion that anything is possible in America. Some theorists have accused the poor of having little concern for the future and preferring to “live for the moment”; others have accused them of engaging in self-defeating behavior. Still other theorists have characterized the poor as fatalists, resigning themselves to a culture of poverty in which nothing can be done to change their economic outcomes. In this culture of poverty—which passes from generation to generation—the poor feel negative, inferior, passive, hopeless, and powerless.

The “blame the poor” perspective is stereotypic and not applicable to all of the underclass. Not only are most poor people able and willing to work hard, they do so when given the chance. The real trouble has to do with such problems as minimum wages and lack of access to the education necessary for obtaining a better-paying job.

More recently, sociologists have focused on other theories of poverty. One theory of poverty has to do with the flight of the middle class, including employers, from the cities and into the suburbs. This has limited the opportunities for the inner-city poor to find adequate jobs. According to another theory, the poor would rather receive welfare payments than work in demeaning positions as maids or in fast-food restaurants. As a result of this view, the welfare system has come under increasing attack in recent years.

Again, no simple explanations for or solutions to the problem of poverty exist. Although varying theories abound, sociologists will continue to pay attention to this issue in the years to come. - Sociology: Causes and Effects of Poverty - CliffsNotes

In the end welfare is just one of many complicated reasons for poverty and the perpetuation of poverty.
 
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Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
I think that if you took the money from social welfare and put it into education, then we would cure the problem. I would even go so far as having schools feed children on our dime if they are attending and succeeding.
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I agree that education in poor neighborhoods is definitely a problem, but in my opinion the endemic issues concerning such schools go much deeper than just a lack of funding. I live near DC, a city in which both federal and local governments have continually tried to throw money at the problem with limited success. I admit you probably have more experience than I do because I grew up in a upper-middle class school district, but I think the main problems with schools in poor districts are mostly structural and cultural, with money/funding as a secondary issue.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

Blackdog said:
????

There are other reasons besides welfare....

#1 We live in a nation that is capitalistic. Poor and rich are consequences of that.
Click to expand...

Nearly everyone in America could earn enough to maintain a lower-middle class status if they were taught how too.

#2 Some unfortunate citizens are just not that bright and will never earn more than minimum wage.
Click to expand...

That is not a factor of society but is inherenet in our species. Survival of the fittest comes to mind.

#3 Some are born into poverty and see no way out.
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This is part of what I have been saying.

Many more reasons exist for poverty, their is no one answer.
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I agree, but social welfare programs are the largest and most powerfull of the reasons.

The reason poor blacks exist? Again many reasons and most do not involve welfare. I mean why did poor people exist before welfare? Why do we have poor people in nations without welfare? I mean please, use logic.
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Society has changed...the reasons for poverty now are different than in the past. Lack of education and the understanding of self agency is a main cause of poverty in under developed nations, not to mention outright barriers to success against ethnic groups.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
I think poverty perpetuates itself just fine without social programs. Poverty has existed throughout the whole history of human civilization, with or without social programs.
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Heres the thing about/...say...panhandlers. Panhandlers exist because people are willing to drop coins in their little cups. And hey...standing on street corners takes a lot out of you...its not that they COULDNT do something different. Its that they have learned they dont HAVE to. Some goes for shelters and other community support organizations. You know which communities have fewer problems with homlessness? The ones that dont have homeless programs.

There are some people that have a legit need for social service programs. Unfortunately we as a society are so completely choked by providing for people that DONT need them that we dont have adequate resources for those that truly do. A lot of that is individual failing, a lot of it is family, but a lot of the responsbility lies at the feet of those that profit off of giving excuses for individual failings and then going out of their way to keep those people dependent. Politicians, drug companies, county and state contracted mental health units, medical doctors and psychiatrists...lots of blame to spread around. But it starts with the individual.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

Blackdog said:
It is a little of both. Your answer as is Mac's are far to simplistic. No one reason is responsible.
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that was my point. of course it's not simple.
 
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Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

Blackdog said:
Anecdotal evidence accounts for little in the realm of debate other than an opinion. The facts and logic directly contradict your opinion.



Drugs are a symptom, parenting is not nor in mentoring.

We are not talking about "symptoms" we are talking about causes.

Poverty is an exceptionally complicated social phenomenon, and trying to discover its causes is equally complicated. The stereotypic (and simplistic) explanation persists—that the poor cause their own poverty—based on the notion that anything is possible in America. Some theorists have accused the poor of having little concern for the future and preferring to “live for the moment”; others have accused them of engaging in self-defeating behavior. Still other theorists have characterized the poor as fatalists, resigning themselves to a culture of poverty in which nothing can be done to change their economic outcomes. In this culture of poverty—which passes from generation to generation—the poor feel negative, inferior, passive, hopeless, and powerless.

The “blame the poor” perspective is stereotypic and not applicable to all of the underclass. Not only are most poor people able and willing to work hard, they do so when given the chance. The real trouble has to do with such problems as minimum wages and lack of access to the education necessary for obtaining a better-paying job.

More recently, sociologists have focused on other theories of poverty. One theory of poverty has to do with the flight of the middle class, including employers, from the cities and into the suburbs. This has limited the opportunities for the inner-city poor to find adequate jobs. According to another theory, the poor would rather receive welfare payments than work in demeaning positions as maids or in fast-food restaurants. As a result of this view, the welfare system has come under increasing attack in recent years.

Again, no simple explanations for or solutions to the problem of poverty exist. Although varying theories abound, sociologists will continue to pay attention to this issue in the years to come. - Sociology: Causes and Effects of Poverty - CliffsNotes

In the end welfare is just one of many complicated reasons for poverty and the perpetuation of poverty.
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oh lawdy lawdy, a conservative citing sociological arguments and explanations! The sky is falling...:2razz:
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
I agree that education in poor neighborhoods is definitely a problem, but in my opinion the endemic issues concerning such schools go much deeper than just a lack of funding. I live near DC, a city in which both federal and local governments have continually tried to throw money at the problem with limited success. I admit you probably have more experience than I do because I grew up in a upper-middle class school district, but I think the main problems with schools in poor districts are mostly structural and cultural, with money/funding as a secondary issue.
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Then you are familiar with PG county. I volunteer in schools in Suitland and I can tell you that despite being in the middle of the richest, predominately black county, in the United states...poor kids still don't realize they can succeed and they can get out. How is that possible?
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

VanceMack said:
Heres the thing about/...say...panhandlers. Panhandlers exist because people are willing to drop coins in their little cups. And hey...standing on street corners takes a lot out of you...its not that they COULDNT do something different. Its that they have learned they dont HAVE to. Some goes for shelters and other community support organizations. You know which communities have fewer problems with homlessness? The ones that dont have homeless programs.

There are some people that have a legit need for social service programs. Unfortunately we as a society are so completely choked by providing for people that DONT need them that we dont have adequate resources for those that truly do. A lot of that is individual failing, a lot of it is family, but a lot of the responsbility lies at the feet of those that profit off of giving excuses for individual failings and then going out of their way to keep those people dependent. Politicians, drug companies, county and state contracted mental health units, medical doctors and psychiatrists...lots of blame to spread around. But it starts with the individual.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with any of this. Do I think welfare plays SOME role in the perpetuation of poverty? Of course I do. My point was that if you eliminated welfare programs today, ten or twenty years from now we would still have poverty, and who knows if it would be better or worse. We live in a capitalistic society. Haves and have-nots are a known consequence of such a system.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

StillBallin75 said:
I agree that education in poor neighborhoods is definitely a problem, but in my opinion the endemic issues concerning such schools go much deeper than just a lack of funding. I live near DC, a city in which both federal and local governments have continually tried to throw money at the problem with limited success. I admit you probably have more experience than I do because I grew up in a upper-middle class school district, but I think the main problems with schools in poor districts are mostly structural and cultural, with money/funding as a secondary issue.
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I think you have to look at overall big picture problem solving for communites like what you described. You have to promote and teach personal and family accountability. You have to create employment opportunites...GOOD employment opportunities, not just minimum wage service jobs. People need to be able to see more at the end of the rainbow then a Mickey D's shirt with their name on it. Then promote positive education programs. Money is a part of the solution, but you can build new schools with all the best equipment...it will be trash in a few years. Its a big picture problem and it needs big picture solutions.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
Lack of ambition. Why would they want to work a job that pays them less than welfare?
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I and others have already said that welfare is a part of the problem. However, poverty existed before welfare and would after welfare - you give it too much credit.

Poverty has no means of perpetuating itself. There is no glamour too it, no attraction. Poverty is caused...not replicated.
Click to expand...
Poverty perpetuates itself just like wealth perpetuates itself. Both create cultures that breed/perpetuate certain mindsets.
 
Re: Do you agree with Obama that we wouldn't be a great country without social progra

mac said:
Then you are familiar with PG county. I volunteer in schools in Suitland and I can tell you that despite being in the middle of the richest, predominately black county, in the United states...poor kids still don't realize they can succeed and they can get out. How is that possible?
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I am very familiar with PG county...I attend UMCP, and I am familiar with much more of the county than just college park. If PG is really the richest majority-black county in the US, then I'm scared to know what the hood actually looks like.
 
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