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Kobe Bryant Fined $100,000 for gay slur

Psychoclown said:
The league is perfectly within its rights to fine Kobe and he should be fined for unsportsmanlike conduct. But the whole idea that because he said "faggot" or whatever makes him a homophobe is silly. I call lame stuff "gay" all the time. I've called someone I thought was an asshole a "fag" once or twice. And I'm don't consider myself a raging homophobe. When I call something gay, I'm not refering to it's sexual preferences, I'm referring to it's high level of lameness. When I call someone a fag, I'm not refering to a man who likes to sleep with other men. I'm referring to an inconsiderate asshole (like guys who ride Harleys!). While homophobes and gay bashers do use those words in a hateful manner to attack gays, most people I know use them in a context that has nothing to do with sexuality.
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It's not about the context of the a word, it's about the meaning of the word. If I were to see a white person or Asian behaving like an asshole and call them "black" or a nigger, the context obviously shows that I'm not talking down to a black person. However, my use of either term clearly shows that I perceive being black as a negative thing. I'm attaching negative behavior and characteristics to being black.

When you call someone gay even if they're not and you're not talking down to a gay person, you're still using a word that attaches being gay with negativity.

Calling someone gay or a faggot is such a powerful insult because the people you're saying it to don't want to be perceived as homosexual. Everyone knows the roots of those terms just like everyone knows that calling someone "black" after doing something negative is a statement about how you perceive black people.
 
theplaydrive said:
It's not about the context of the a word, it's about the meaning of the word. If I were to see a white person or Asian behaving like an asshole and call them "black" or a nigger, the context obviously shows that I'm not talking down to a black person. However, my use of either term clearly shows that I perceive being black as a negative thing. I'm attaching negative behavior and characteristics to being black.

When you call someone gay even if they're not and you're not talking down to a gay person, you're still using a word that attaches being gay with negativity.

Calling someone gay or a faggot is such a powerful insult because the people you're saying it to don't want to be perceived as homosexual. Everyone knows the roots of those terms just like everyone knows that calling someone "black" after doing something negative is a statement about how you perceive black people.
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Exactly. You totally get it.
 
sazerac said:
Exactly. You totally get it.
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Thanks. I used to use the term "gay" as an insult a lot when I was younger, but then as I got older and interacted with gay people more, I thought about it a lot and realized what the problem was - even though I wasn't using it against them.
 
The use is different. No one calls a random guy who cuts you off in traffic a "spic" or a "sand-nigger", unless perhaps that specific driver fits that specific slur. Almost all ethnic or racial slurs are used exclusively against the targeted race or ethnicity or at most against people engaging in negative behavior that is sterotypically associated with that race or ethnicity. For example, a racist might say someone who is a hard line negotiator "jewed him down on the price". But that racist wouldn't go around caling everyone who annoyed him "a damn kyke!"

Gay or fag is different. Those words have meanings that are completely independent of one's sexuality. Just like many folks used to think "sucks" was a dirty word with sexual conotations, but now its commonly used to mean something is lame or unsatisfactory. Or how "*****" refers both to female sex organs and a weak-willed man. Calling your friend a ***** when he backs out of a dare doesn't make you a mysogonist and calling an asshole a fag doesn't make you a homophobe. Is it impolite or crude? Sure, but it doesn't mean the person in question is a hate monger. It's just the way some people talk.

I'm not saying "faggot" is a word that should be used in polite society. And I understand how some folks could be offended by it, but I also recognize that context matters a lot and you have to take that into account. As with any word.
 
Psychoclown said:
The use is different. No one calls a random guy who cuts you off in traffic a "spic" or a "sand-nigger", unless perhaps that specific driver fits that specific slur. Almost all ethnic or racial slurs are used exclusively against the targeted race or ethnicity or at most against people engaging in negative behavior that is sterotypically associated with that race or ethnicity. For example, a racist might say someone who is a hard line negotiator "jewed him down on the price". But that racist wouldn't go around caling everyone who annoyed him "a damn kyke!"

Gay or fag is different. Those words have meanings that are completely independent of one's sexuality. Just like many folks used to think "sucks" was a dirty word with sexual conotations, but now its commonly used to mean something is lame or unsatisfactory. Or how "*****" refers both to female sex organs and a weak-willed man. Calling your friend a ***** when he backs out of a dare doesn't make you a mysogonist and calling an asshole a fag doesn't make you a homophobe. Is it impolite or crude? Sure, but it doesn't mean the person in question is a hate monger. It's just the way some people talk.

I'm not saying "faggot" is a word that should be used in polite society. And I understand how some folks could be offended by it, but I also recognize that context matters a lot and you have to take that into account. As with any word.
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The use of the term faggot and gay in the mainstream is just an example of how institutionalized they are becoming.

It's the exact same thing with calling someone of any race "black" or nigger - people use those words as well to denote types of behavior in white people, Asians or anyone. I know a lot of people who are not "racist" as we think of racists, but they say things like "he's acting so black" and they will go to their grave saying "I'm not criticizing black people. I mean, not all black people act black." They don't realize that the term is just institutionalized and that they are, in fact, associating negative behavior with race.

When you say "that's gay", you're using a term that denotes homosexuality (in the United States) to point to something negative. If that's not the case, then you could just say "that's lame" or "that's stupid" - but you're choosing to say gay.
 
Words can change meaning over time depending on use. Fag used to be a bundle of sticks. Gay used to be happy. The words got used differently and changed meanings. If you use it differently now, you're just aiding in the evolution of the word. One can quite easily say "that's gay" or call some asshole a "fag" without insinuating anything about homosexuals. Fag can be changed to mean asshole Harley riders, not homosexuals. Gay can be changed to lame. Language never has been, and never will be, static.
 
It's idiotic to fine someone over a word. It is that kind of thing that keeps everyone hollering and being "offended". The only way that a word harms someone is if they let it harm them...or "think" that it will. It is stupid in the extreme.
 
Ikari said:
Words can change meaning over time depending on use. Fag used to be a bundle of sticks. Gay used to be happy. The words got used differently and changed meanings. If you use it differently now, you're just aiding in the evolution of the word. One can quite easily say "that's gay" or call some asshole a "fag" without insinuating anything about homosexuals. Fag can be changed to mean asshole Harley riders, not homosexuals. Gay can be changed to lame. Language never has been, and never will be, static.
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I think we all agree on this "words change" idea - unfortunately faggot is still heavily used as a gay slur and it became associated with the word "lame" because the people who used it associated being gay with being lame. I think it's a little bit ridiculous to say that it doesn't have homophobic connotation to it. If you call Kobe Bryant "lame", he probably won't flip a ****. If you call him a "faggot", he probably will. Why is that?
 
theplaydrive said:
I think we all agree on this "words change" idea - unfortunately faggot is still heavily used as a gay slur and it became associated with the word "lame" because the people who used it associated being gay with being lame. I think it's a little bit ridiculous to say that it doesn't have homophobic connotation to it. If you call Kobe Bryant "lame", he probably won't flip a ****. If you call him a "faggot", he probably will. Why is that?
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I seriously doubt that Kobe "the rapist" Bryant would flip out if you called him "faggot".
 
theplaydrive said:
I think we all agree on this "words change" idea - unfortunately faggot is still heavily used as a gay slur and it became associated with the word "lame" because the people who used it associated being gay with being lame. I think it's a little bit ridiculous to say that it doesn't have homophobic connotation to it. If you call Kobe Bryant "lame", he probably won't flip a ****. If you call him a "faggot", he probably will. Why is that?
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Because he's crazy. People may perceive things as different, but that will most certainly be the case during the unstable period of time under which words evolve their meanings. In fact, one could argue that by insisting that fag has to always refer to gay people and thus people should stop using it that they are in fact stagnating the word and preventing its evolution to a different meaning.
 
OscarB63 said:
I seriously doubt that Kobe "the rapist" Bryant would flip out if you called him "faggot".
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I imagine he would be more pissed about being called a fag then he would being called lame.
 
Ikari said:
Because he's crazy. People may perceive things as different, but that will most certainly be the case during the unstable period of time under which words evolve their meanings. In fact, one could argue that by insisting that fag has to always refer to gay people and thus people should stop using it that they are in fact stagnating the word and preventing its evolution to a different meaning.
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I never said it always refers to gay people - British people use it to refer to cigarettes all the time.

My point is that it's ridiculous to say that the word, used as an insult in the United States, is not tied to homosexuality. Like I said, "acting black" has taken on a life of its own and people use the term to refer to all races - it would just as ridiculous for people to say that since the word is "evolving" it doesn't have a racial connotation.

You have to ask the question: why do gay and faggot equal lame? Why those words - I imagine (in the U.S.) it had nothing to do with cigarettes and bundles of sticks.
 
theplaydrive said:
You have to ask the question: why do gay and faggot equal lame? Why those words - I imagine (in the U.S.) it had nothing to do with cigarettes and bundles of sticks.
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I don't know, why was Josh always joking around?
 
theplaydrive said:
I imagine he would be more pissed about being called a fag then he would being called lame.
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only because he is too stupid to know what "lame" means. ;)

seriously, I don't know many people, straight or gay, that would flip out if someone called them a faggot. the word has already lost much of its "power". it says more about the person using it than the person it is used against.

I can recall a time when people flipped out if you called them "bastard" or "bitch", but hardly anyone bats an eye at those terms today.
 
The NBA is a private organization and they can sanction their players however they want.

I can see why they would fine him. Bryant is an image and a product, and gays are part of the consumer demographic. They could justify it as lost revenue.
 
Ikari said:
Words can change meaning over time depending on use. Fag used to be a bundle of sticks. Gay used to be happy. The words got used differently and changed meanings. If you use it differently now, you're just aiding in the evolution of the word. One can quite easily say "that's gay" or call some asshole a "fag" without insinuating anything about homosexuals. Fag can be changed to mean asshole Harley riders, not homosexuals. Gay can be changed to lame. Language never has been, and never will be, static.
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All legalities aside, we all know the mainstream connotation of fag, so let's not pretend otherwise - and when it's in front of a wide audience, it is going to be taken one way.
 
OscarB63 said:
I can recall a time when people flipped out if you called them "bastard" or "bitch", but hardly anyone bats an eye at those terms today.
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Bitch used to be an insult you yelled at women, now you can say it to anyone.
 
OscarB63 said:
only because he is too stupid to know what "lame" means. ;)

seriously, I don't know many people, straight or gay, that would flip out if someone called them a faggot. the word has already lost much of its "power". it says more about the person using it than the person it is used against.

I can recall a time when people flipped out if you called them "bastard" or "bitch", but hardly anyone bats an eye at those terms today.
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I agree with that - and to be honest, people who flip out at any insult give it too much power over them. I just take issue with the idea that the insults "fag" and "gay" are completely removed from homosexuality.
 
theplaydrive said:
I just take issue with the idea that the insults "fag" and "gay" are completely removed from homosexuality.
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I would say that they're becoming removed though. Due to the excessive use of the words for things which are not homosexual.
 
Ikari said:
Bitch used to be an insult you yelled at women, now you can say it to anyone.
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and nobody flips out over it. One of my army buddies and I use that as our standard greeting. "What's up bitch?"
 
Ikari said:
I would say that they're becoming removed though. Due to the excessive use of the words for things which are not homosexual.
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I agree with you and I think it's eventually going to become as neutral as bitch. That said, we aren't that far yet.
 
What I find amusing about this is that the NBA fined Kobe for using a gay slur, presumably because of image issues, but they have no problem with his image as a rapist and woman beater
 
theplaydrive said:
I agree with you and I think it's eventually going to become as neutral as bitch. That said, we aren't that far yet.
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True, but to get there you must continue using the word in non-homosexuality related topics. Such as loud, obnoxious Harley riders. South Park is right, Fag won't go away; it's just too fun to say. So you have to change the meaning of the word.
 
OscarB63 said:
What I find amusing about this is that the NBA fined Kobe for using a gay slur, presumably because of image issues, but they have no problem with his image as a rapist and woman beater
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I thought about that too - priorities are clearly not in line.
 
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