• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Who won the Vietnam War?

Who won the Vietnam War?

  • The French

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • The British

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • The Americans

    Votes: 6 6.1%

  • The Canadians

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • The Chinese

    Votes: 3 3.0%

  • The Russians

    Votes: 3 3.0%

  • The Japanese

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • The Vietnamese

    Votes: 46 46.5%

  • No one

    Votes: 23 23.2%

  • Other

    Votes: 18 18.2%
  • Total voters
    99
StillBallin75 said:
1) liberty means different things to different people. Although perhaps misguided, many Vietnamese saw Communism/socialism as a way to free themselves from what they viewed as the oppressive imperialist presence of the French, and later the United States. In their eyes, Communism WAS a chance at freedom. In addition, the vast majority of Communist movements throughout history have been nationalistic in character first and foremost. For the most part they were nationalists first, Communists second.

2) communism doesn't necessarily mean authoritarianism. It depends at what scale, and how, it is being implemented.
Click to expand...

I have the same problem with Nationalism.. it tends to deny Liberty as well for the countries interest.

I may be the only one, but i think individual liberty is the ultimate goal in no matter what society. And a lot of the Vietnamese were misled by Communist.

But anyway, Im not gonna really comment on all the different variations on communism, but communism, as it was originally created, takes away it's citizen's right to property, and i am unaware of any other communist variance that doesn't do that and is still considered communism... therefore it is evil by issuing a contract no human can morally sign.
 
Last edited:
celticwar17 said:
I have the same problem with Nationalism.. it tends to deny Liberty as well for the countries interest.

I may be the only one, but i think individual liberty is the ultimate goal in no matter what society. And a lot of the Vietnamese were misled by Communist.

But anyway, Im not gonna really comment on all the different variations on communism, but communism, as it was originally created, takes away it's citizen's right to property, and i am unaware of any other communist variance that doesn't do that and is still considered communism... therefore it is evil by issuing a contract no human can morally sign.
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you've said here, but in the end I disagree with the notion that the denial of liberty necessarily = evil. In that case my parents would be evil...basically all monarchies throughout history would be evil, etc.
 
Last edited:
StillBallin75 said:
I agree with everything you've said here, but in the end I disagree with the notion that the denial of liberty necessarily = evil. In that case my parents would be evil...basically all monarchies throughout history would be evil, etc.
Click to expand...

You parents ran a concentration camp? They had prisoners?

All monarchies denied people their liberty?

Rod Serling lives!
 
Grant said:
Actually there were thousands, millions, who promoted Communism and many who not only tried to implement it but did.

It was the most imperialist and murderous movement in world history, and one that shames the human race.
Click to expand...

Yes, and now it's dead, resting in the dustbin of history, despite the fact that the US lost the war in Vietnam that was supposedly about fighting Communism. Not only that, but the Vietnamese went on to put an end to the murderous Pol Pot and his Khymer Rouge (meaning red, i.e. Communistic) in Cambodia. So, what are we to conclude from that? Were the Vietnamese really a part of the threat of Communism? Why, exactly, were we fighting the non war in Vietnam?
 
Badfish420 said:
well, your right to a certain extent. communism as described by Marx is actually a global movement, any nationalistic communist revolutions should be called socialist. and your dead on about the vietnamese looking at communism as a chance at freedom, because all they had ever known was foreign imperial oppression.
Click to expand...

Very good... It applies to all people living under a cruel, oppressive dictator, king, emperor, president, or whatever they want to call themselves, and it doesn't really matter what they call the new way of life.

Problem is all people need leadership, and no matter who takes the place of the old despot, the next one may be just as bad or even worse.

Power always corrupts, but some are less opportunistic as others.

The only solution is to run every country with computer programs, throw out all the old law precedents, use common sense, give everyone the same slice of the pie to start with and hope history doesn't repeat itself.

ricksfolly
 
Grant said:
The Vietnamese looked at Communism as a chance at freedom??? Who says? Certainly not any Vietnamese I've ever heard!

You think Communism wasn't "imperial oppression"? Or that it worse under the French?

The Boat People certainly didn't see any freedom, not did the millions murdered and imprisoned by the communists.
Click to expand...

first of all this is just history, many vietnamese, like most of the people in other situations looked at communism enthusiastically because of one of two reasons or both, years of imperial colonization and vast poverty. why do you think the south vietnamese terrorists were such a problem for us, because the support for Ho Chi Min was so great. second, yes is it was better than french imperial rule, because even if there is terrible conditions, it was ruled by vietnamese, not foreign powers which is what most vietnamese wanted. thats why the communist movement could have also been described as a nationalist movement. they wanted to unite north and south and govern themselves not an imperial power or a west-backed stooge.
 
StillBallin75 said:
In my recollection the only individual in history who actively tried to promote and implement Communism as an international movement was Che Guevara. The vast majority of other Communist leaders in history were nationalists first and foremost. I disagree that those movements should be called socialist rather than Communist, however. Just because they weren't exactly Marxist in nature doesn't mean that they weren't Communist.
Click to expand...

nope, communism in theory is a global movement, and is one of the key distinctions between communism and socialism. also one of the things about communism that has been lost in translation from its original theory. why do u think the soviet union was so hell bent on absorbing their neighbors and seeding its influence over the world?
 
Badfish420 said:
nope, communism in theory is a global movement, and is one of the key distinctions between communism and socialism. also one of the things about communism that has been lost in translation from its original theory. why do u think the soviet union was so hell bent on absorbing their neighbors and seeding its influence over the world?
Click to expand...

That's precisely it. IN THEORY. Hasn't always been the case in practice. As for why the USSR was so hell bent on absorbing their neighbors etc. It's what happens when you're a superpower, and the used Communist ideology to justify it. But at the end of the day, it was all about realpolitik.
 
Last edited:
Dittohead not! said:
Yes, and now it's dead, resting in the dustbin of history, despite the fact that the US lost the war in Vietnam that was supposedly about fighting Communism. Not only that, but the Vietnamese went on to put an end to the murderous Pol Pot and his Khymer Rouge (meaning red, i.e. Communistic) in Cambodia. So, what are we to conclude from that? Were the Vietnamese really a part of the threat of Communism? Why, exactly, were we fighting the non war in Vietnam?
Click to expand...

In fact the Viet Cong were receiving support from both Communist China and the USSR. Viet Nam was a part of the Cold War, and one of it's many battles. As it turned out the Communists murdered many times more people than the anti Communists ever did.
 
Grant said:
In fact the Viet Cong were receiving support from both Communist China and the USSR. Viet Nam was a part of the Cold War, and one of it's many battles. As it turned out the Communists murdered many times more people than the anti Communists ever did.
Click to expand...

look we can talk all day about who killed more but either way the commie brutes and the american backed fascists were both terrible regimes. its not like the communists were any better or worse, the point is it wasnt our fight and we got involved, which many claim is one of the reasons why the victors were so brutal when they rolled into saigon and imposed their rule, if we had left them to self determine from the time the french were ousted it could have turned out differently.
 
Badfish420 said:
first of all this is just history, many vietnamese, like most of the people in other situations looked at communism enthusiastically because of one of two reasons or both, years of imperial colonization and vast poverty. why do you think the south vietnamese terrorists were such a problem for us, because the support for Ho Chi Min was so great. second, yes is it was better than french imperial rule, because even if there is terrible conditions, it was ruled by vietnamese, not foreign powers which is what most vietnamese wanted. thats why the communist movement could have also been described as a nationalist movement. they wanted to unite north and south and govern themselves not an imperial power or a west-backed stooge.
Click to expand...

No one with any knowledge would look at Communism "enthusiastically". The Vietnamese people might not have been politically sophisticated at the time but they were not stupid. Have you ever talked with any Vietnamese people from that period?

The Vietnamese people would have preferred a local mass murderer rather than be ruled by the French? I know some people have no use for the French, but that's going a little too far.
 
Badfish420 said:
look we can talk all day about who killed more but either way the commie brutes and the american backed fascists were both terrible regimes. its not like the communists were any better or worse, the point is it wasnt our fight and we got involved, which many claim is one of the reasons why the victors were so brutal when they rolled into saigon and imposed their rule, if we had left them to self determine from the time the french were ousted it could have turned out differently.
Click to expand...

The Communists were the worst scourge of the past century, moreso than the Nazis or the Fascists. And the fascists, by the way, were not in Vietnam,.
 
Well, yeah. If Vietnam would have gone on to become a favorite vacation destination or an art culture capital the US could be said to have won.
 
sazerac said:
Well, yeah. If Vietnam would have gone on to become a favorite vacation destination or an art culture capital the US could be said to have won.
Click to expand...

that could happen yet.

If Saigon had been renamed "Nixontown" or perhaps "Johnsonville" instead of HoChiMinh City, then that would have been an indication that the US won.
 
Grant said:
The Communists were the worst scourge of the past century, moreso than the Nazis or the Fascists. And the fascists, by the way, were not in Vietnam,.
Click to expand...

Did you know we killed 2 million Vietnamese in their own country?
 
Dittohead not! said:
that could happen yet.

If Saigon had been renamed "Nixontown" or perhaps "Johnsonville" instead of HoChiMinh City, then that would have been an indication that the US won.
Click to expand...

Or Eisenhower City. After all, Ike was the first to put boots on the ground.
 
USA_1 said:
Did you know we killed 2 million Vietnamese in their own country?
Click to expand...

No, I didn't know that. Do you have a link??

Do you know how many were killed by the Communist movement between 1917 and 1990?.
 
Grant said:
No, I didn't know that. Do you have a link??

Do you know how many were killed by the Communist movement between 1917 and 1990?.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone really knows how many Vietnamese were killed in the non war. Two million is estimate I've heard for the number of Cambodians who perished at the hands of the Khymer Rouge before the Vietnamese took out Pol Pot.
 
Grant said:
No one with any knowledge would look at Communism "enthusiastically". The Vietnamese people might not have been politically sophisticated at the time but they were not stupid. Have you ever talked with any Vietnamese people from that period?

The Vietnamese people would have preferred a local mass murderer rather than be ruled by the French? I know some people have no use for the French, but that's going a little too far.
Click to expand...

no ive never talked to some vietnamese who lived through it i dont need to its just history my friend, i took cold war history in high school
 
Badfish420 said:
no ive never talked to some vietnamese who lived through it i dont need to its just history my friend, i took cold war history in high school
Click to expand...

You took Cold War history in high school?

I didn't realize I was dealing with an expert. I only read books and talked to people who lived through it.
 
Grant said:
You took Cold War history in high school?

I didn't realize I was dealing with an expert. I only read books and talked to people who lived through it.
Click to expand...

When I was in high school, the cold war was not history. It was news.
 
The VC were victorious. They defeated the imperialist American yellow-dogs. America choses to fight weak nations where they can slaughter women, children, and elderly men. Americans are indeed yellow-dogs. Long live the VC ! Long live the PLO ! YANKEE GO HOME !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom