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Do you support ending all Public Sector Unions?

Do you support ending all Public Sector Unions?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 40.9%
  • No

    Votes: 38 57.6%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 1 1.5%

  • Total voters
    66
Well isnt a bloated salary, gold plated health care, diamond inlayed pensions enough compensation?

.....The Content Union is as real as Bigfoot or the Blue Dog Democrat.
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I don't really think salaries are bloated. NYC firefighters start at 40k, hardly a ton for the hours and stress they get put under.
There have to be some protections put into place once the right to strike is taken away, their only real power. Otherwise, what's stopping them from cutting wages, healthcare, pensions, etc.? If they're not allowed to strike, all they can do is watch.
 
I don't really think salaries are bloated. NYC firefighters start at 40k, hardly a ton for the hours and stress they get put under.

Is the $100,000/yr..... 5 years later.....at all bloated? What about the Free Lifelong Health Care? A Free pension after 20 years?

Firefighter Benefits and Salary

There have to be some protections put into place once the right to strike is taken away,

By protections you mean an never ending bribe?

their only real power. Otherwise, what's stopping them from cutting wages, healthcare, pensions, etc.? If they're not allowed to strike, all they can do is watch.

....Do you work? Whats stopping your employer from cutting your wages?
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Is the $100,000/yr..... 5 years later.....at all bloated? What about the Free Lifelong Health Care? A Free pension after 20 years?

Firefighter Benefits and Salary



By protections you mean an never ending bribe?



....Do you work? Whats stopping your employer from cutting your wages?
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For the life firefighters live? yeah, I'd say its fair.

by protections I mean something in place of striking.

I could leave McKinsey, I suppose, if they tried to cut my wages. Most of my income doesn't come from wages, though, but bonuses and that depends on how much money I and my team brings in.
 
For the life firefighters live? yeah, I'd say its fair.

How about that......

.....at what salary would it be "too much"?

by protections I mean something in place of striking.

The strike is the only union weapon........and your solution is to keep bribing the union to keep them from using it.


I could leave McKinsey, I suppose, if they tried to cut my wages. Most of my income doesn't come from wages, though, but bonuses and that depends on how much money I and my team brings in.

So you dont have union representation and they havent cut your wages..........

....impossible.
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It is hilarious how the right say they are the champions of peoples right, freedom of speech and basically the defenders of "you can do anything you want", but when it comes to unions they are willing to take all those principles and throw them out the window. Hypocrites.

As for the "union" is destroying the country crowd... it aint the Unions that cause the financial melt down.. that was the banking and financial industry... so when are you going to go after them?
 
It is hilarious how the right say they are the champions of peoples right, freedom of speech and basically the defenders of "you can do anything you want", but when it comes to unions they are willing to take all those principles and throw them out the window. Hypocrites.

Union slobs across this country "can do whatever they want".........but how about they start paying for it?

The Majority of people who fund the bloated salaries, gold plated health care, diamond inlayed pensions of these public sector union slobs........

..........dont make as much.....and have fewer benefits.


As for the "union" is destroying the country crowd... it aint the Unions that cause the financial melt down.. that was the banking and financial industry... so when are you going to go after them?

Nobody blamed unions for the financial meltdown........

........but when it comes to the Bankrupt Cities and States.........when it comes to turning this country into THE MOST BUSINESS UNFRIENDLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.....when it comes to outrageous property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes ........it is the Unions and their Democrat leaders that deserve a lions share of the blame.
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Bankers slobs across this country "can do whatever they want".........but how about they start paying for it?

The Majority of people who fund the bloated salaries, gold plated health care, diamond inlayed pensions of these bankers slobs........

..........dont make as much.....and have fewer benefits.

Fixed that for you.

Nobody blamed unions for the financial meltdown........

Yea... just most of the GOP, Tea Party and other radicals on the right. Unions have always been blamed by the righ for any and all ills of the US.... jobs being exported to Mexico..Unions are the problem, not the big corporations doing the exporting. Unions are always being blamed for things by the right, some times justified, but most of the time unjustified.

........but when it comes to the Bankrupt Cities and States.........when it comes to turning this country into THE MOST BUSINESS UNFRIENDLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.....when it comes to outrageous property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes ........it is the Unions and their Democrat leaders that deserve a lions share of the blame.

Stop drinking Fox News and the CATO institute cool-aid.

The US may have one of the highest business taxes on paper, but anyone can see in reality they are not. Most major corporations avoid paying taxes all together in the US, thanks to loop-holes put in place by "friendly" Washington politicians.

You have some of the lowest income taxes in the industrialised world, and next to no sales tax. As for property taxes, well... not seen a comparison on that but I would wager they are nothing compared to European property taxes.

Before you go on attacking Unions for all the problems of the US, how about redirecting the rage towards those that actually deserve it.. you own politicians that are in the pockets of big business, and no one is more in the pocket that the GOP and Tea Party... why else would they block plugging a big oil tax loop-hole that gives billions to oil companies and sucks billions from the US tax payer?

And for the record, I think unions in Europe have far too much power and am anti-Union, but in no freaking way would I ever deny someone the right to be in a union if he or she wants too, or deny the right for a union to exist at all.
 
Lots of people seem intent on putting working class people on The Road To Serfdom.
 
Lots of people seem intent on putting working class people on The Road To Serfdom.

The road to serfdom is what? No belonging to a union? I've lived my whole life not belonging to a union. My job was never protected by what unions so often call "due process," and I call a bag of tricks. I didn't get raises just because I put in another year on the job or took another class in school. Somehow, despite this horrendous disadvantage, I manage to live well and prosper....on my own merits.
 
Lots of people seem intent on putting working class people on The Road To Serfdom.

Whats wrong with that? It's my taxes, I pay these assholes to do nothing all day. Fireman don't put out fires, teachers don't teach my kids, police officers don't police.

As we all know from Fox News government employees sit around all day burning barrels of tax payer dollars while they take their 45 minute union enforced lunch breaks while watching MSNBC and throwing a few American flags into the money pile too...

At least thats what Glenn Beck and the voices in my head keep telling me.

It's amazing that my somewhat balanced look at things in my first post has descended into the "ABOLITION OF THE COMMIE PUBLIC SECTOR UNIONS!".

A balance must be found, too far one way OR the other is bad for everybody.
 
The road to serfdom is what? No belonging to a union? I've lived my whole life not belonging to a union. My job was never protected by what unions so often call "due process," and I call a bag of tricks. I didn't get raises just because I put in another year on the job or took another class in school. Somehow, despite this horrendous disadvantage, I manage to live well and prosper....on my own merits.

As somebody who's worked in the private sector most of his life, I find this really hard to believe. Not to question you but are you self employed? Cause that's the only way I see somebody in the private sector not getting a yearly raise. Maybe your employers are just assholes but still, I find that section of your post incredibly hard to believe.
 
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Fixed that for you.

But of course......the last thing Liberals and Unions slobs want to admit........is the fact that the bloated unions salaries, gold plated health care, and diamond inlayed pensions......are cut from the backs of POOR PEOPLE and THE MIDDLE CLASS.


Yea... just most of the GOP, Tea Party and other radicals on the right. Unions have always been blamed by the righ for any and all ills of the US.... jobs being exported to Mexico..Unions are the problem, not the big corporations doing the exporting. Unions are always being blamed for things by the right, some times justified, but most of the time unjustified.

If you could find any source that blamed Unions for the Financial collapse....please do so.

Most people agree it was Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, and his butt buddies over at F&F that brought on the collapse.....

Stop drinking Fox News and the CATO institute cool-aid.

The US may have one of the highest business taxes on paper, but anyone can see in reality they are not. Most major corporations avoid paying taxes all together in the US, thanks to loop-holes put in place by "friendly" Washington politicians.

.....so if your fairy tale was true........WHY DOES THE MASS EXODUS OF US BUSINESSES CONTINUE?

You have some of the lowest income taxes in the industrialised world, and next to no sales tax. As for property taxes, well... not seen a comparison on that but I would wager they are nothing compared to European property taxes.

Speak for youself......the majority of Americans have 25-50% of their working lives seized by the government.

Before you go on attacking Unions for all the problems of the US, how about redirecting the rage towards those that actually deserve it.. you own politicians that are in the pockets of big business, and no one is more in the pocket that the GOP and Tea Party... why else would they block plugging a big oil tax loop-hole that gives billions to oil companies and sucks billions from the US tax payer?

.....so sucking billions from US taxpayers is only acceptable if its UNIONS doing the sucking.

And for the record, I think unions in Europe have far too much power and am anti-Union, but in no freaking way would I ever deny someone the right to be in a union if he or she wants too, or deny the right for a union to exist at all.

....and the right to NOT BE IN A UNION if he or she wants to.....and yet the majority of Public Sector Jobs require you join a Union and have DNC campaing contributions removed from your paycheck.

As I said before.....people have every right to be in a union......in the private market.
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Lots of people seem intent on putting working class people on The Road To Serfdom.

Well I dont know who you mean by "lots of people"........

But as today's liberal commoners and democrat serfs prove.........the only entity that prospers from poverty.....is The (D)emocrat Party--(D)ependent upon (D)ependents and their (D)ependence.

The more poor people Democrats can create.......the more Democrat voters are realized.

The Poorest American Cities of 2008 (1-30)

1. Detroit, 33.3% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 52 years
2. Cleveland, 30.5% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 20 years
3. Buffalo, 30.3% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 43 years
4. Newark, 26.1% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 102 years
5. Miami, 25.6% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 52 years
6. Fresno, 25.5% in poverty--Republican Mayor for the last 13 years
7. Cincinnati, 25.1% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 29 years
8. Toledo, 24.7% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 20 years
9. El Paso, 24.3% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 120 years
10.Philadelphia, 24.1% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 57 years
11. Milwaukee, 23.4% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 49 years
12. Memphis, 23.1% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 133 years
13. St. Louis, 22.9% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 60 years
14. Dallas, 22.6% in poverty--Republican Mayor for the last 2 years
14 New Orleans,22.6% in poverty-Democrat Mayor for the last 141 years
16. Atlanta, 22.4% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 130 years
17. Stockton, Calif., 21.6% in poverty--No info available--probably Libs
18. Minneapolis, 21.3% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 35 years
19. Pittsburgh, 21.2% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 21 years
20. Tucson, 20.9% in poverty--No info available--probably Libs
21. Chicago, 20.6% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 78 years
22. Columbus,Ohio 20.1% in poverty-Democrat Mayor for the last 9 years
23. Long Beach, Calif., 19.8% in poverty--No info available--probably Libs
24. Houston, 19.5% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 88 years
25 Los Angeles,19.4% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for "the last 8 years"
26. Baltimore, 19.3% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 42 years
27 San Antonio,19.2% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 38 years
28. Phoenix, 18.9% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 5 years
29. Boston, 18.7% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 79 years
30. Denver, 18.4% in poverty----Democrat Mayor for the last 46 years

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The time is long past due to remove the Public Masters and reinstate the Public Servants......to put Taxpayer Rights, Property Rights, Employer Rights, and Voter Rights back on an equal playing field with the almighty "Worker's rights"......and to throw our Bankrupt cities, states, and country a lifeline to solvency rather than the wellstone of Union debt. The time has come to put Public Sector Unions on the endangered species list.

Im not saying all Public Sector Unions are a detriment.......its just how collective bargaining ultimately ends. Im not saying there havent been instances when Unions have helped our society and economy........just not in the last 3 or 4 decades. Im not saying Union slobs are all to blame.....who wouldnt vote themselves a bloated salary, gold plated health care, diamond inlayed pension, a pay raise every two years, a lifetime exemption for accountability and responsibility, and have someone else pay for it all.......if you could.

What I am saying.....is Im a realist. And in reality, rather than Union Imaginationland, the majority of people who pay for the bloated salaries, gold plated health care, and diamond inlayed pensions of these public sector union slobs, have a smaller salary and fewer benefits, if any benefits at all. Removing Public Sector Unions entirely from The Divided Socialist States of ObamAmerica isnt an attack on the poor or middle class, its a ****ing tax break for the poor and middle class......its the weight of millions of parasites lifted from the backs of the poor and middle class. For every poor and middle class private sector worker......its a federal tax cut, a property tax cut, a state income tax cut, a city income tax cut, a sales tax cut. Its a pay raise for for 4 out of every 5 American workers.....God Bless America.

Regardless of how noble or heroic a role......Public Sector Unions and their members produce NOTHING....but bureaucracy and debt. The majority of Public Sector Union Jobs could be handled by the Private market for lower costs with better results. And while American Workers should have the right to Organize.....it shouldnt be on the back of the American Taxpayer. A long overdue welcome to all Public Sector Unions......back to Freedom, the Free Market, and Reality. By bill or by bankruptcy.......the days of Public Sector Unions are numbered.........and the end cant come soon enough.
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If you have to bring your rhetoric to the point of zealotry you probably need to re-evaluate your beliefs.
Well I dont know who you mean by "lots of people"........

But as today's liberal commoners and democrat serfs prove.........the only entity that prospers from poverty.....is The (D)emocrat Party--(D)ependent upon (D)ependents and their (D)ependence.

The more poor people Democrats can create.......the more Democrat voters are realized.

The Poorest American Cities of 2008 (1-30)

1. Detroit, 33.3% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 52 years
2. Cleveland, 30.5% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 20 years
3. Buffalo, 30.3% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 43 years
4. Newark, 26.1% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 102 years
5. Miami, 25.6% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 52 years
6. Fresno, 25.5% in poverty--Republican Mayor for the last 13 years
7. Cincinnati, 25.1% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 29 years
8. Toledo, 24.7% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 20 years
9. El Paso, 24.3% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 120 years
10.Philadelphia, 24.1% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 57 years
11. Milwaukee, 23.4% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 49 years
12. Memphis, 23.1% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 133 years
13. St. Louis, 22.9% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 60 years
14. Dallas, 22.6% in poverty--Republican Mayor for the last 2 years
14 New Orleans,22.6% in poverty-Democrat Mayor for the last 141 years
16. Atlanta, 22.4% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 130 years
17. Stockton, Calif., 21.6% in poverty--No info available--probably Libs
18. Minneapolis, 21.3% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 35 years
19. Pittsburgh, 21.2% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 21 years
20. Tucson, 20.9% in poverty--No info available--probably Libs
21. Chicago, 20.6% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 78 years
22. Columbus,Ohio 20.1% in poverty-Democrat Mayor for the last 9 years
23. Long Beach, Calif., 19.8% in poverty--No info available--probably Libs
24. Houston, 19.5% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 88 years
25 Los Angeles,19.4% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for "the last 8 years"
26. Baltimore, 19.3% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 42 years
27 San Antonio,19.2% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 38 years
28. Phoenix, 18.9% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 5 years
29. Boston, 18.7% in poverty--Democrat Mayor for the last 79 years
30. Denver, 18.4% in poverty----Democrat Mayor for the last 46 years

To begin with, the only statistics that could possibly matter on this issue is overall poverty in zones of Democratic power versus overall poverty in zones of Republican power. Then you have to adjust for problem factors like, property rights and freedoms, which prevent politicians from effectively influencing the course of economic development in favor of the public good. Also for the fact people tend to prefer Republicans when the economy is good and Democrats when the economy bad, regardless of which is responsible for making it good or bad.
 
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If you have to bring your rhetoric to the point of zealotry you probably need to re-evaluate your beliefs.

If you took my rhetoric as zealotry....rather than the common sense view expressed by the majority of Americans......it isnt my beliefs that need re-evaluated.


To begin with, the only statistics that could possibly matter on this issue is overall poverty in zones of Democratic control versus overall poverty in zones of Republican control. Then you have to adjust for problem factors like, property rights and freedoms, which prevent politicians from effectively influencing the course of economic development.

To observe the fact that every poverty ridden crime laden ****hole in this country has a Democrat at the helm.......and has had a Democrat at the helm for decades.......

.......probably means we dont need to venture into statistics......unless your objective is to further my argument.
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If you took my rhetoric as zealotry....rather than the common sense view expressed by the majority of Americans......it isnt my beliefs that need re-evaluated.

Democracies don't exist to give your opinions power. Saying a majority of people support your opinion is immoral, even if you have strong empirical evidence. Opinions have to stand on their own merits.



To observe the fact that every poverty ridden crime laden ****hole in this country has a Democrat at the helm.......and has had a Democrat at the helm for decades.......

.......probably means we dont need to venture into statistics......unless your objective is to further my argument.
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People select Democrats when things are bad because Democrats theoretically care about such things. Republicans don't even necessarily acknowledge the existence of such things.

For example, Republicans don't theoretically acknowledge the existence of a rising gap between rich and poor because that subverts the Trickle-Down Theory of wealth that is the heart of their economic philosophy.

In Republican theory, the overwhelming instances of poverty are your problem. Thus they feel little compulsion to take action on poverty, because it's not part of their plan.

In contrast, Democrats have little ability to take action on poverty, because our laws do not give them that ability.
 
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Democracies don't exist to give your opinions power. Saying a majority of people support your opinion is immoral, even if you have strong empirical evidence. Opinions have to stand on their own merits.

.......ignoring the will of the American People is immoral in this Constitutional Republic turned Tyranny of the Minority......

People select Democrats when things are bad because Democrats theoretically care about such things. Republicans don't even necessarily acknowledge the existence of such things.

(D)ependent upon (D)ependents and their (D)ependence--The (D)emocrat Party

.....are you starting to realize who benefits from bad times?........who might want to create bad times in the name of political gains?

....you know.....never let a crisis go to waste.

For example, Republicans don't theoretically acknowledge the existence of a rising gap between rich and poor because that subverts the Trickle-Down Theory of wealth that is the heart of their economic philosophy.

I will aknowledge it right now for you....

The rising income gap exists and I hope it continues to grow......otherwise the economic pie wouldnt grow.......

........the lazy liberal slob of decades past......who had a net worth of $0.00........isnt worth a cent more today. Conservatives want people as far away from $0.00 as possible.......Liberals want everyone as close to $0.00 as possible.

In Republican theory, the overwhelming instances of poverty are your problem. Thus they feel little compulsion to take action on poverty, because it's not part of their plan.

......that......or its not at all the government's job in this constitutional republic.


In contrast, Democrats have little ability to take action on poverty, because our laws do not give them that ability.

The trillions of dollars in debt resulting from the Democrats war for poverty.........is proof they do have the ability.......

.......the 20% poverty rate decades later.....is proof they dont have a brain.
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We need a better people.
All of us tend to be greedy and selfish, but now, ALL OF US, must sacrifice, starting with the CEOs, the President and the Governors.
I have yet to see the first step in this direction.
The blame game must stop... The unions are the whipping boys...but is all of us, and the sacrifice must start at the top...
The truth must be told, and then we must listen...
Right now, over our media, its anything but the truth.
That Wisconsin governor, I do not trust him......but I do not trust the Liberals either.
Both the wealthy and the union must stay out of the political process, both are so greedy that it is disgusting...
Maybe we need a full scale revolution here....
 
Look, if negotiations between unions and managers of private companies come to a boil, the union strikes and either management folds or the company goes bankrupt.

Now look at the public sector... cities, counties, states. If negotiations between unions and the public sector come to a boil, management has NO tools to deal with it. None. If a city or state declares bankruptcy, what happens to the people who lives there? Construction comes to a halt, because there are no inspectors, no building permits being issued, no water delivery, no fire protection, no police protection. So when the money isn't there to pay union wages and perks, what happens? Has anyone seriously thought about what would happen if, say, the state of California suddenly declared bankruptcy, and its assets were seized by the court? Everything screeches to a complete halt... and those union jobs? They're gone. Those union paychecks? They're gone too. Highway maintenance? Uh-uh. Snowplows in the mountains? Sorry, fend for yourselves until spring. Water delivery from the north part of the state to the south? Sayonara. State workers handle... used to handle that. Wildfires, floods, natural disasters... you're on your own, people. Schools? Close 'em down, people. No state, no teachers, no money. 20 million peeps will have to homeschool their kids. The dominoes continue to fall as the list goes on. Is this the worst-case scenario? Absolutely. But the worst-case scenario is not an impossible scenario.

I used to work for a municipality. People always complain about civil servents until suddenly they don't have access to all the services they provide, services that residents severely need. In order for public entities to remain solvent, they have to have ways to cut expenses to match flexible revenues. Huge, multi-year union contracts prevent entities from doing that. Unlike the federal government, public entities are required by law to balance their budgets. They cannot by law run a "dificit."

A private corporation goes bankrupt, a limited number of people are out of work. A state goes bankrupt, millions upon millions of people are going to be drastically and dangerously affected, and unemployment will probably soar to 30% or more. When you count all the jobs in the public service sector and jobs that are funded by the public service sector, half the state could eventually be out of work. That is why public entities cannot be allowed to go bankrupt, and why public sector unions should be abolished.

Good points.
We have states with unions and states without.
How do they compare(standard of living, quality of service, happiness of the people, crime rate, etc)??
Long ago unions were necessary as the ones in power treated the people poorly; now, do we have a "better people" who will no longer disrespect the working man ?
 
Walker in 2012!
Scott-Walker.jpg

------WINNING.............The Future---------
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a 100 times YEAS!




crush, crush, jcrushs! .... the public unions




don't KNOWBODY take my damn democracy and not pay for it.
 
Walker in 2012!
Scott-Walker.jpg

------WINNING.............The Future---------
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It occurs to me that it's no stretch to compare what Walker did with what Obama did with healthcare.
 
It occurs to me that it's no stretch to compare what Walker did with what Obama did with healthcare.

its eerrreily simmilar,andisn't that interesting cause for relfelection on both sides?
 
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