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Should Wisconsin Democrats be paid while they hide out in Illinois?

Should Wiscnson Democrats be paid while they hide in Illinois?


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This is what cracks me up about politics. Its okay if our side does but we'll scream bloody murder if your side does the same thing we did. Sure there might be a few people out there would be still be outraged regardless of what side did it, but I still think its the fact an issue that they oppose has not come up yet while their side is in the minority. I know that if there was a liberal governor and he wanted impose legislation that allow tax payer dollars to be used for abortion, free college for illegals or a whole bunch of issues I do not support and the politicians who shared my views were in the minority I would support them doing what it takes prevent that legislation from being enacted, including skipping town so that a vote couldn't happen.

fillibustering is different from skipping town. one uses the processes in place to defend againts a particular piece of legislation; the other removes from the people the ability to self-govern at all.
 
Democrat lawmakers the protesters have said numerous times that they concede to cuts in benefits as well as paying more into benifits. Even Fox news has reported this. This is about them wanting to keep their ability to collectively bargain. So its its dishonest to say they want to keep bleeding the public dry.

the one is the same as the other; they want to retain the source of the problem in favor of cosmetic improvements.
 
fillibustering is different from skipping town. one uses the processes in place to defend againts a particular piece of legislation; the other removes from the people the ability to self-govern at all.

Until they make a law that makes it to where votes can go on if politicians skip town, this will always be another process to defend against a particular piece of legislation. I would think republicans in Wisconsin would be severely pissed at their elected officials not using the same tactics when they were in the minority.
 
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you continually surprise me. thanks.
 
the one is the same as the other; they want to retain the source of the problem in favor of cosmetic improvements.

Free collective bargaining is a basic human right in a free society. To my mind it should be an explicit constitutional right, as it is in many modern democracies. I'd fight pretty bloody hard not to have the authoritarian bosses take that right away.
 
the one is the same as the other; they want to retain the source of the problem in favor of cosmetic improvements.

Multiple sources have said that they would agree to cuts and paying more for benefits. To say they want to bleed the budget dry is a blatantly dishonest meant to paint them as greedy at the public's expense.
 
Back again with the issue of the pay. So don't pay 'em. This isn't about money, at least not for the reps, but it's about a principle of protecting the livelihoods of people who work for the State, to the benefit of the entire community.

the current bill is designed to keep the state from what would otherwise be forced layoffs and furloughs. how is working to put your constituents out of work "protecting their livelihoods"?
 
Multiple sources have said that they would agree to cuts and paying more for benefits

certainly of course, of course, of course; and for the mere provision of your real name, birthdate, social security number, and some credit card information, i will mail you 15$. TaDa! i just gave you 15$!!!

maintaining public sector unions leaves those unions with the ability to veto the people of the United States of America, an indenfensible state. maintaining collective bargaining for public sector unions simply continues to put them in a position where they can funnel public money via coerced contributions to friendly politicians into controling the political process. if Walker leaves that in place, he may have fixed this years' budget; but future governors (perhaps him) will face others created by the same ground conditions that he left unaltered.
 
Until they make a law that makes it to where votes can go on if politicians skip town, this will always be another process to defend against a particular piece of legislation. I would think republicans in Wisconsin would be severely pissed at their elected officials not using the same tactics when they were in the minority.

i would expect them to fillibuster if it was bad enough and certainly to vote against it; but no, i wouldn't countenance them going AWOL.

Because that is what this is. they have no more right to refuse to show up to perform the work that they campaigned and asked the people to entrust to them than i do to tell my CO that i don't agree with his command decisions, and will therefore not be showing up to work.
 
certainly of course, of course, of course; and for the mere provision of your real name, birthdate, social security number, and some credit card information, i will mail you 15$. TaDa! i just gave you 15$!!!

maintaining public sector unions leaves those unions with the ability to veto the people of the United States of America, an indenfensible state. maintaining collective bargaining for public sector unions simply continues to put them in a position where they can funnel public money via coerced contributions to friendly politicians into controling the political process. if Walker leaves that in place, he may have fixed this years' budget; but future governors (perhaps him) will face others created by the same ground conditions that he left unaltered.

Follow The Money

...Unions, most of whose members are public employees, gave Democrats some $400 million in the 2008 election cycle. The American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, the biggest public-employee union, gave Democrats $90 million in the 2010 cycle.

“Follow the money,” Washington reporters like to say. The money in this case comes from taxpayers, present and future, who are the source of every penny of dues paid to public-employee unions — who in turn spend much of that money on politics, almost all of it for Democrats. In effect, public-employee unions are a mechanism by which every taxpayer is forced to fund the Democratic party...

And, according to the Washington Post, [Obama] had time enough to get the Democratic National Committee to organize protests against the proposed Wisconsin law — protests that showed contempt for the law, with teachers abandoning classrooms, doctors writing phony medical excuses, Democratic legislators fleeing the state and holing up in a motel. The lawmakers played hooky without losing any salary, which is protected by the state constitution.

It’s true that Walker’s proposals would strike hard at the power of the public-employee unions. They would no longer have the right to bargain for fringe benefits, which are threatening to bankrupt the state government, and they would no longer be able to count on government withholding dues money and passing it along to them.

But what are the contributions that public-employee unions make to our states and our citizens? Their incentives are to increase the cost of government and reduce toward zero the accountability of public employees — both contrary to the interests of taxpaying citizens...


What citizens of states with strong public-employee unions do get are higher taxes and enormous pension burdens that threaten to squeeze out funds for ongoing services, as even Democratic governors like Andrew Cuomo of New York and Jerry Brown of California have figured out.

That’s why one of the great 20th-century presidents was against unions for public employees who have civil-service protections. No, not Ronald Reagan. It was Franklin Roosevelt who said, “Action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable.”...
 
certainly of course, of course, of course; and for the mere provision of your real name, birthdate, social security number, and some credit card information, i will mail you 15$. TaDa! i just gave you 15$!!!

Are you saying that they are lying about agreeing to pay cuts and paying more for benefits?
maintaining public sector unions leaves those unions with the ability to veto the people of the United States of America, an indenfensible state. maintaining collective bargaining for public sector unions simply continues to put them in a position where they can funnel public money via coerced contributions to friendly politicians into controling the political process. if Walker leaves that in place, he may have fixed this years' budget; but future governors (perhaps him) will face others created by the same ground conditions that he left unaltered.
You don't think future governors and unions would keep spending cuts?
 
i would expect them to fillibuster if it was bad enough and certainly to vote against it; but no, i wouldn't countenance them going AWOL.

So if a democrat majority said we want tax payer funded abortions, free college education for illegals, ban certian types of firearms, impose 30 day waiting periods for firearms, make it mandatory to lock up your firearms in a safe, and other similar laws you would oppose republicans skipping town to prevents these things from happening. Besides that filibustering is not a option for the.

Because that is what this is. they have no more right to refuse to show up to perform the work that they campaigned and asked the people to entrust to them than i do to tell my CO that i don't agree with his command decisions, and will therefore not be showing up to work.

Last time I checked it's illegal for anyone in the military to refuse a lawful order from their chain of command and its illegal for those in the military to go AWOL. Is it illegal for politicians to flee the state in order to prevent legislation that they do not like?
 
Well, it strikes me that you (and us over here in Europe) are suffering a crisis that was 100% the creation of the private, financial sector. They came running to dip into the public purse to have their debts underwritten by the tax payer, which stupidly the governments decided to do. You are now expecting the public sector workers to soak up the impact of those debts, taken on by the western governments on behalf of, but without consulting, the tax-payers. At the same time, the corporate recipients of those trillions of tax dollars, who haven't yet repaid the bail-outs, are still giving themselves multi-million dollar bonuses...and you're getting angry at the firemen, teachers and health workers. I think you need to rethink your values, Maggie.

It strikes me that you are blaming financial institutions for our legislators spending like drunken sailors. Everyone needs to shoulder some of the burden. How many public sector jobs have been lost? What's their unemployment rate? Billions of our bailout money went to preserve public sector jobs...second only in funding to bailing out our financial markets. In a world where the rest of us are taking salary freezes, asked to work harder and longer hours to compensate for staffs being laid off, Wisconsin teachers got a 4.5% increase last year. Private employment has dropped by 7%. In the meanwhile, public sector employment has increased by 2%. Cities with job growth favor public sector hiring - Business - Forbes.com - msnbc.com

Democrat lawmakers the protesters have said numerous times that they concede to cuts in benefits as well as paying more into benifits. Even Fox news has reported this. This is about them wanting to keep their ability to collectively bargain. So its its dishonest to say they want to keep bleeding the public dry.

This is about them being forced into these concessions because Gov. Walker has stood his ground. This is about Wisconsin teachers up in arms that Viagra won't be covered by their prescription drug coverage. This is about them wanting to keep their ability to negotiate their salaries and benefits with the very jakes (Democrats) they're donating hundreds of millions of dollars to in order to keep them in office. What is wrong with having taxpayers vote if salaries are increased more than the rate of inflation?
 
i would expect them to fillibuster if it was bad enough and certainly to vote against it; but no, i wouldn't countenance them going AWOL.

Because that is what this is. they have no more right to refuse to show up to perform the work that they campaigned and asked the people to entrust to them than i do to tell my CO that i don't agree with his command decisions, and will therefore not be showing up to work.

I think you have missidentified their CO. I think their CO are the Dems that elected them. They are doing what they were elected to do, i.e. they are at work.
 
The Wisconsin legislature cannot filibuster; it's against procedural rules. That's the reason they ran like little girls.
 
This is a pretty douchey tactic. But the problem is that votes like these never actually get voted on by their merits. There's no discussion or debate. There is only sucking up to special interests (in this case business lobbies) and then a strict party vote. We will never know if this move is good or bad, only whether it is republican or democrat. And neither of those means "good".

I do not approve of these stalling techniques, but I approve even less of the ugly party divides that make them necessary.

Edit: Oh, and since we pay politicians while they're out campaigning, these folks should also be paid.
 
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certainly of course, of course, of course; and for the mere provision of your real name, birthdate, social security number, and some credit card information, i will mail you 15$. TaDa! i just gave you 15$!!!
That makes no logical sense whatever.

maintaining public sector unions leaves those unions with the ability to veto the people of the United States of America, an indenfensible state. maintaining collective bargaining for public sector unions simply continues to put them in a position where they can funnel public money via coerced contributions to friendly politicians into controling the political process. if Walker leaves that in place, he may have fixed this years' budget; but future governors (perhaps him) will face others created by the same ground conditions that he left unaltered.

Union busting has always been an aim of the far right. It appears Walker is intent on using the economic crisis as an excuse to destroy the public sector unions. I'm delighted to see the Dems fighting the tyranny any way they can. "First they came for the trades unionists, and I didn't speak out because I was not a trades unionist...", how true even today.
 
The Wisconsin legislature cannot filibuster; it's against procedural rules. That's the reason they ran like little girls.

I think if the people you elected had behaved the same under similar circumstances you'd feel differently.
 
I think if the people you elected had behaved the same under similar circumstances you'd feel differently.

No. See, that's the thing. If you, if I, can't be nonpartisan, we are skrood. I hated it when the Dems had a majority in Washington and shoved legislation down our throats, "just because they could." But nobody ran to Canada, and if they had, I can assure you that I would have been first in line to call for their resignations.

Doesn't anybody get it? If we can't be fair, if we can't demand honesty from our politicians, no matter what their party, well, we deserve exactly what we get. And we won't even get a kiss with it.
 
That makes no logical sense whatever.

Union busting has always been an aim of the far right. It appears Walker is intent on using the economic crisis as an excuse to destroy the public sector unions. I'm delighted to see the Dems fighting the tyranny any way they can. "First they came for the trades unionists, and I didn't speak out because I was not a trades unionist...", how true even today.

I think you're wrong about Walker. If his main intent was to destroy public sector unions, and if others believed it, policemen and firemen would be coming out in droves...and we'd have an epidemic of blue flu going on right now.
 
I think you're wrong about Walker. If his main intent was to destroy public sector unions, and if others believed it, policemen and firemen would be coming out in droves...and we'd have an epidemic of blue flu going on right now.

um....i guess you didn't hear walker compare himself to reagan? "this is our moment"? do you think he meant balancing the budget? lol!
 
I think you're wrong about Walker. If his main intent was to destroy public sector unions, and if others believed it, policemen and firemen would be coming out in droves...and we'd have an epidemic of blue flu going on right now.

Well, what do you believe the intent of ending free, collective bargaining is? If a union cannot negotiate on behalf of its members collectively, then it ceases to be a union. Unless, perhaps, you have a new definition of a trade union.
 

So if a Democrat majority was pushing through a law to fully fund all organizations performing abortions you'd be cool with it?* Nope, sorry, not buying it.

See, that's the thing. If you, if I, can't be nonpartisan, we are skrood. I hated it when the Dems had a majority in Washington and shoved legislation down our throats, "just because they could." But nobody ran to Canada, and if they had, I can assure you that I would have been first in line to call for their resignations.

You just said that Wisconsin doesn't allow the kind of fillibustering that DC does. That makes that analogy useless.

Doesn't anybody get it? If we can't be fair, if we can't demand honesty from our politicians, no matter what their party, well, we deserve exactly what we get. And we won't even get a kiss with it.

Where's the lack of honesty? The people who voted for their congressmen wanted a certain platform to be represented. The congressmen are defending the wishes of their voters. The tactic of "running away" may seem distasteful to you, but there's no dishonesty here.


*I'm just assuming you're against abortion. If I'm wrong feel free to replace that with a strongly emotional topic for you.
 
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