Agree or disagree: Government is the problem

[Chappy]

“In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.” — Ronald Reagan, First Inaugural¹​

Is government the problem?

Explain.

Minute 4:20

 

[Chappy]

This simplistic idea that government is the problem, secures Ronald Reagan his place among the worst presidents this country has ever suffered.

I invite gun advocates who constantly are reminding us that we should blame the owner of the hand that held the gun and not the gun for the crimes committed with the gun. The American people own the hand that holds the government, it is their will what government does. Blaming government for the intents or the lapses of the American people is like blaming the gun for the sins of the gun wielder.

With Reagan's simple-minded anti-government advocacy comes alienation with reality whose heroes today are named Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann.

 

[Ed Gein]

A FriscoLib slams The Gipper, not using reason, not using facts(facts defeat partisan stupidity).

Thanks for the laffs, and for solidifying why I truly hate most liberals.

 

[USA_1]

A FriscoLib slams The Gipper, not using reason, not using facts(facts defeat partisan stupidity).

Thanks for the laffs, and for solidifying why I truly hate most liberals.

The Gipper deserved to be slammed, Not only did he sell arms to a terrorist regime, he was the father of mega deficits and bailouts.
His deregulation of the savings and loans led to their 180 billion dollar bailout. He also left George Bush an economic mess that cost him a second term. You don't have to be liberal to acknowledge that Reagan was not a great president. Just a realist.

 

[Chappy]

A FriscoLib slams The Gipper, not using reason, not using facts(facts defeat partisan stupidity).

Thanks for the laffs, and for solidifying why I truly hate most liberals.

QFT.

Wow, I was hoping for a reasoned argument as to your opinion; but, no, that's not to be from you.

Reagan's legacy to the American people is a non-rational movement that believe what they believe without any conscious justification whatsoever. It's just what they feel that counts. Because? 'Cause. Got it.

No thanks for that.

 

[Ed Gein]

QFT.

Wow, I was hoping for a reasoned argument as to your opinion; but, no, that's not to be from you.

Reagan's legacy to the American people is a non-rational movement that believe what they believe without any conscious justification whatsoever. It's just what they feel that counts. Because? 'Cause. Got it.

No thanks for that.

When you feign desire for discussion, you only make yourself look more the court jester.

You offered up your tripe, I chose not to partake. So adios, San Fran Lib.

 

[repeter]

Government is not always the problem. Its stupid beyond all reason to even try to claim that. While government is not perfect, it is not always wrong either. I can't stress how stupid it is to deal in such an extreme.

Does anyone actually want one example of how government worked? I don't think thats necessary, unless someone is hopelessly partisan and ignorant.

 

[Your Star]

A FriscoLib slams The Gipper, not using reason, not using facts(facts defeat partisan stupidity).

Thanks for the laffs, and for solidifying why I truly hate most liberals.

I feel sorry for you.

 

[repeter]

A FriscoLib slams The Gipper, not using reason, not using facts(facts defeat partisan stupidity).

Thanks for the laffs, and for solidifying why I truly hate most liberals.

He quoted Reagan. Its a fact that he made that speech. Ergo, he used facts, and you are wrong.

So who's using partisan stupidity? :roll:

 

[Chappy]

When you feign desire for discussion, you only make yourself look more the court jester.

You offered up your tripe, I chose not to partake. So adios, San Fran Lib.

Here, I'll try again because this thread is intended to engage all sides.

I made a point in my opening post of presenting the question as neutral a way as I could. I asked the poll question. I gave the Reagan quote. I even attached the YouTube link and location in the video where Reagan spoke the quote.

In the poll, I made a point of keeping the choices as neutral as possible, Yes, No, Don't Know.

Throughout I avoided loaded words because I wanted to invite participation.

My response post, I unloaded as hard as I know how, because I am partisan, I do have an opinion. I know I am in a distinct minority that is critical of Ronald Reagan. That's okay. I don't actually find much comfort being among the majority of respondents.

So, here's the bit where you get to offer an opinion and offer some insight about how you think about Reagan's point. Directing your opinion at me seems kind of a waste. But, hey, we'll all contribute in our own ways.

 

[TurtleDude]

This simplistic idea that government is the problem, secures Ronald Reagan his place among the worst presidents this country has ever suffered.

I invite gun advocates who constantly are reminding us that we should blame the owner of the hand that held the gun and not the gun for the crimes committed with the gun. The American people own the hand that holds the government, it is their will what government does. Blaming government for the intents or the lapses of the American people is like blaming the gun for the sins of the gun wielder.

With Reagan's simple-minded anti-government advocacy comes alienation with reality whose heroes today are named Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann.

we laugh at the far left's howling about Reagan

and i am amused about your gun analogy given you are one of the biggest gun haters on thisboard.

and yes government is at best a neccessary evil that both parties-especially the dems-has expanded way way beyond the boundaries created by the founders.

 

[kaya'08]

This simplistic idea that government is the problem, secures Ronald Reagan his place among the worst presidents this country has ever suffered.

I invite gun advocates who constantly are reminding us that we should blame the owner of the hand that held the gun and not the gun for the crimes committed with the gun. The American people own the hand that holds the government, it is their will what government does. Blaming government for the intents or the lapses of the American people is like blaming the gun for the sins of the gun wielder.

With Reagan's simple-minded anti-government advocacy comes alienation with reality whose heroes today are named Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann.

Thing is, many of the decisions governments make are not necessarily the will of the people. The people might have given a mandate to the government to take over and pursue a particular agenda, but many of the decisions made are not made by informing the people, but are rather entirely circumstantial - and the approach may or may not appeal to us although it was deemed appropriate by the government at the time.

Take interest rates as an example. The people may demand low interest rates but the government believes it is in the interest of the state to raise it, or austerity measures where cuts are made in areas that may be unpopular with the people.

You cannot act as though the government and the people are but one....because they are not. The will of the people may or may not effect the outcome of the decision making process. Part of it depends on what the people demand, but a lot of it depends on what the government believes is right. That can make the government dangerous. And in the case of an economic crises, the government has become the problem for not wielding the necessary powers to avert a crises like regulating banks and the sub prime sector.

It is, at the end of the day, the job of the government to secure national interests. Just because your average American never stood up and shouted "REGULATE BANKS!" or "CAP BONUSES" doesn't mean the people lapsed and the government is not to blame.

 

[Chappy]

Fair enough; the people's leadership of the government is indirect and reactionary in many cases.

Was it the will of the people that interest rates would be controlled substantially by the unelected Federal Reserve board? Probably not.

What is true is that the American people elected the leaders who made legislative decisions based on their best judgment. And, the American people elected the leaders who appointed people to implement their policies.

The American system says if government is doing something you don't like, change the government through our democratic process.

Reagan, on the other hand, acted if the government was some alien beast imposing its will on them; it was the enemy like Mothra. Government was the problem by his lights throughout even his tenure.

“The government is us; we are the government, you and I.” — President Teddy Roosevelt​

Roosevelt, another Republican icon, had it right. Government is what we make of it.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Ummm... I do not think that TR was a Republican icon. Roosevelt was a progressive. I agree with his statement, but I doubt that Republicans or conservatives would claim TR as one of their own. They might respect him, but wouldn't claim him.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Moderator's Warning:

Oh... and the personal attacks stop now. Or there will be consequences.

 

[rathi]

Such statements are oversimplified crap that represent the greatest problem in modern American politics. You might as well say" is water is the problem?". A drowning man and a man dying of thirst will have very different opinions on the subject, and neither of them will be wrong. Government can be the problem, the solution or completely irrelevant depending on specific circumstances. You should decide whether government should be involved after you analyze the situation, not before. Even more importantly, you have to decide whether the specific solution is a good idea or not. In short, don't be a lazy fool, get off you ass and actually think about a problem before deciding how to deal with it.

 

[kaya'08]

Fair enough; the people's leadership of the government is indirect and reactionary in many cases.

Was it the will of the people that interest rates would be controlled substantially by the unelected Federal Reserve board? Probably not.

What is true is that the American people elected the leaders who made legislative decisions based on their best judgment. And, the American people elected the leaders who appointed people to implement their policies.

The American system says if government is doing something you don't like, change the government through our democratic process.

Reagan, on the other hand, acted if the government was some alien beast imposing its will on them; it was the enemy like Mothra. Government was the problem by his lights throughout even his tenure.

“The government is us; we are the government, you and I.” — President Teddy Roosevelt​

Roosevelt, another Republican icon, had it right. Government is what we make of it.

You acknowledge that the government and the people are not one, and then you say you agree with TR and say they are. Could you please clarify?

Fair enough; the people's leadership of the government is indirect and reactionary in many cases.

I mean i completely agree with this.

 

[Chappy]

My point is that Reagan promoted an alienation between the people and their government which is with us still in the form of a widespread, amorphous voter frustration in its most modest form (e.g., the Tea Party) to violent assaults upon government agents and institutions in its most virulent form (e.g., Andrew Joseph Stack III).

American government is just a tool wielded by the representatives elected by the American people. As TR told us, “government is us” in the sense that it is a product of our collective will as embodied by those elected leaders. One can argue about government's size and shape, its reach and role but this debate is within the American family, not, as some among us would appear to have us believe, a war upon an otherworldly beast holed up in the nation's capital.

 

[earthworm]

A FriscoLib slams The Gipper, not using reason, not using facts(facts defeat partisan stupidity).

Thanks for the laffs, and for solidifying why I truly hate most liberals.

Well, I hate conservatives, and I see a serious problem.
hate
The progressives have their place as "social improvers"
The conservatives have their place as a brake on this progression..
Yes, the brake is necessary(it slows down the progression, but must not stop it...
As to being "slammed".....that is the price one pays for having an opinion........
My opinion - our nation is backward, years behind the Canadians and Europeans, particularly in social matters.

 

[Hoplite]

Reagan's statement seems to be populist pandering distilled down to it's most pure form. Either that or Reagan was cleverly insulting millions of people in which case I might actually have to start liking him.

PEOPLE elect the government. By saying "government is the problem", he can make people feel good about themselves by giving them an out to say "Yeah! It's not MY fault!" On top of that, it's an overly-simplistic idea to just blame government every time something bad happens.

What also kills me is Reagan IS government! He's part of that government that is supposed to be a problem!

 

[earthworm]

we laugh at the far left's howling about Reagan

and i am amused about your gun analogy given you are one of the biggest gun haters on thisboard.

and yes government is at best a neccessary evil that both parties-especially the dems-has expanded way way beyond the boundaries created by the founders.

Turtle, you may prefer the way things were during the 1700s.....but its 2011, with 2011 people and problems...did you know that ?

 

[apdst]

This simplistic idea that government is the problem, secures Ronald Reagan his place among the worst presidents this country has ever suffered.

I invite gun advocates who constantly are reminding us that we should blame the owner of the hand that held the gun and not the gun for the crimes committed with the gun. The American people own the hand that holds the government, it is their will what government does. Blaming government for the intents or the lapses of the American people is like blaming the gun for the sins of the gun wielder.

With Reagan's simple-minded anti-government advocacy comes alienation with reality whose heroes today are named Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann.

If creating more government as a solution, then at that point, government becomes the problem.

 

[ricksfolly]

This simplistic idea that government is the problem, secures Ronald Reagan his place among the worst presidents this country has ever suffered.

Reagan's deregulation gutted consumer protection, environmental protection, workplace safety and the right to organize. It led to many scandals that made his administration one of the most corrupt in history, with a record 138 officials investigated, indicted or convicted. But the biggest change was deregulation of banking, which led to crashes that have cost taxpayers literally trillions. The first was the Savings and Loan debacle that followed on Reagan's reforms that empowered banksters to gamble with other people's money, with their losses guaranteed by the federal government.

Fired 1300 air traffic controllers, destroyed Union's bargaining power, dropped the income tax for the top 2 percent from 70 to 38 percent. Tripled the national debt, spent trillions on the SDI, which to this day still doesn't work.

ricksfolly

 

[Tucker Case]

People are the problem. People suck.

If the government is, as Lincoln said, "of the people, by the people, for the people" then it is part of the problem.

 

[Redress]

The question is too simplistic. Is the government part of the problem? Yes. Is the government part of the solution? Yes. Are factors other than the government as big or bigger parts of the problem? Yes.