Is Admitting Students to College based on Sports Beneficial?

Ikari said:

I do, and I've seen first hand athletes fail at it and get bailed out by the coaches and administrators.

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I have also seen first hand how athletes DO manage it, far more do than don't. I have done it. I was a good student and played in four national NCAA tournaments and ran in three regional NCAA track meets... it CAN be done and IS done my the vast majority of athletes. Unless you have done it, you can't really understand how difficult it is to balance the two or the sacrifices that student-athletes make to work to be the best at their sport AND be successful in the classroom.

repeter said:

That failed to address the point that athlete's are often given an easier time because of teacher preference.

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I don't know ANY athlete at my school who experienced that. Some teachers were TOUGHER on athletes due to the perceptions of people like Ikari.

I want someone to establish that its really good students who get turned down at the big public universities in favor of some "dumb jock"

private schools of course can do what they want

but the whining has no merit-good students aren't losing seats to jocks

its those who barely were contenders-and i some kid who is edged out at OSU has to go to the University of Cincinnati (which is a slighlty lower ranked college-so what) what difference does it matter-he aint going to be top drawer either place

ludahai said:

I don't know ANY athlete at my school who experienced that. Some teachers were TOUGHER on athletes due to the perceptions of people like Ikari.

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absolutely true-the dean of my "college" hated male jocks and was finally canned because she would give female students who wanted more time to study all sorts of extensions (a violation of the rules) but she wouldn't give a swimmer a day extension so he could attend the ivy league championships or nationals (which was a listed reason for an extension)

Ikari said:

Yeah, well we'll see if TO or Ochocinco makes it that far. There's nothing that says smart people can't play sports. There is something that says dumb people cannot excel in academics. And because of the circus that's become of our college sports, it's getting to the point where retards are ushered in, treated like kings, and get degrees they didn't earn because they couldn't do the work. But by virtue of being an "athlete" there were people to put pressure where it needed to be in order to get grades changed where they needed to be changed.

Academic standings is the most important thing in academia. It's not sport-ia, it's academia.

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You do understand that most students go to university to prepare for a career in the real world, not stay in an ivory tower. Many employers want MORE than someone who has book skills, but also someone who has other abilities, including skills in working together and leadership, which participation in athletics provide.

TurtleDude said:

absolutely true-the dean of my "college" hated male jocks and was finally canned because she would give female students who wanted more time to study all sorts of extensions (a violation of the rules) but she wouldn't give a swimmer a day extension so he could attend the ivy league championships or nationals (which was a listed reason for an extension)

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I also experienced a couple of problems like that from a prof when my team had to travel to California for an NCAA soccer match. I actually had to work on the assignment on the plane and my coach faxed it to the prof from the hotel. That was against department policy and he was later reprimanded for it.

ludahai said:

I have also seen first hand how athletes DO manage it, far more do than don't. I have done it. I was a good student and played in four national NCAA tournaments and ran in three regional NCAA track meets... it CAN be done and IS done my the vast majority of athletes. Unless you have done it, you can't really understand how difficult it is to balance the two or the sacrifices that student-athletes make to work to be the best at their sport AND be successful in the classroom.

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Keep in mind this is on a high school level...

I take part on my school's Mock Trial team, Science Olympiad team, ROV Team, plus a crap load of other things where I'm in some leadershpi position, and have to be there all the time. On top of that, I'm taking the hardest classes my school still offers (I finished all our AP's last year, so I'm on independent study advanced classes). I have straight A's, and I'm going ready to win all my events in everything I'm taking part in.

Still, I never forget why I'm going to school, not to take part in science olympiad, or mock trial or anything, I'm there to learn math, science, history and other classes. The problem with athletes is they forget that, and colleges forget that as well, which is the root of the problem.

TurtleDude said:

I want someone to establish that its really good students who get turned down at the big public universities in favor of some "dumb jock"

private schools of course can do what they want

but the whining has no merit-good students aren't losing seats to jocks

its those who barely were contenders-and i some kid who is edged out at OSU has to go to the University of Cincinnati (which is a slighlty lower ranked college-so what) what difference does it matter-he aint going to be top drawer either place

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In the Ivy's, the marginal person turned away for an athlete is a going to be one hell of an intellectual.

Guys...come on...while it may not have happened where you went to school, how can you just ignore the current or at the very least recent academic scandals (say...FSU, NC, Minnesota...Im sure there are others) as if they arent real everyday occurences? Im sure not every program has the problem. The service academies...Northwestern...I can think of several major colleges that stay competitive while focused on academia over sports. I still think it would be better for EVERYONE if they maintained high standards across the board.

ludahai said:

You do understand that most students go to university to prepare for a career in the real world, not stay in an ivory tower. Many employers want MORE than someone who has book skills, but also someone who has other abilities, including skills in working together and leadership, which participation in athletics provide.

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You don't get that just from sports. You pretend like none of that can be found through the normal course of academia. Or that sports is required in some way to provide it. Sports can be a good outlet and have benefits to the student. They don't have large benefits to the academic side of university apart from advertising if you have a really good program and some money. But most of the money stays within the athletics department. And while there are quite a few very good student athletes, there does exist in part because of the commercialization of certain sports, a significant number of student athletes who are not qualified to stay in school and are given privileges outside that of the normal student conduct. You may pretend that hard work and dedication to academia puts someone in an "ivory tower", but you are talking about academia now so regardless of your smarmy attitude towards it; it remains relevant for this argument. As it stands, because of the way particularly football and basketball are now handled on the national stage, there does happen to be a lot of cheating for certain athletes and they end up with degrees they did not earn.

Of course one could take the argument of "oh well, they got something they didn't earn and that's fine"; but academia is about academics primarily, not sports. There is no reason that we should start cheating in academia in order to allow others to play sports. Sports, while a good thing, are not the primary reason for being in University.

VanceMack said:

Guys...come on...while it may not have happened where you went to school, how can you just ignore the current or at the very least recent academic scandals (say...FSU, NC, Minnesota...Im sure there are others) as if they arent real everyday occurences? Im sure not every program has the problem. The service academies...Northwestern...I can think of several major colleges that stay competitive while focused on academia over sports. I still think it would be better for EVERYONE if they maintained high standards across the board.

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Exactly, and that's been my point all along. People want to try to hide from the fact that this behavior happens, but I've seen it happen. Dumbass QB who couldn't do algebra if you gave him a road map on how to do so, failing a course. All of a sudden there's all sorts of people making sure the grade is recorded to allow the QB to keep playing. While sports are a good thing, one is not special because they play them. You've made additional commitments which means additional work. There should be no exceptions made because of someone's extracurricular activities.

repeter said:

Keep in mind this is on a high school level...

I take part on my school's Mock Trial team, Science Olympiad team, ROV Team, plus a crap load of other things where I'm in some leadershpi position, and have to be there all the time. On top of that, I'm taking the hardest classes my school still offers (I finished all our AP's last year, so I'm on independent study advanced classes). I have straight A's, and I'm going ready to win all my events in everything I'm taking part in.

Still, I never forget why I'm going to school, not to take part in science olympiad, or mock trial or anything, I'm there to learn math, science, history and other classes. The problem with athletes is they forget that, and colleges forget that as well, which is the root of the problem.

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Most athletes DON'T forget that. You just see SOME don't do well in school and that gives the rest of us a bad name. Some of us wouldn't even be able to attend university were it not for athletic scholarships... not for academic reasons, but for financial ones...

repeter said:

In the Ivy's, the marginal person turned away for an athlete is a going to be one hell of an intellectual.

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Ivy Schools don't have athletic scholarships. Do they accept athletes that are not academically qualified?

Ikari said:

Exactly, and that's been my point all along. People want to try to hide from the fact that this behavior happens, but I've seen it happen. Dumbass QB who couldn't do algebra if you gave him a road map on how to do so, failing a course. All of a sudden there's all sorts of people making sure the grade is recorded to allow the QB to keep playing. While sports are a good thing, one is not special because they play them. You've made additional commitments which means additional work. There should be no exceptions made because of someone's extracurricular activities.

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I never ONCE received any kind of exception due to my athletic involvement with the exception of being able to hand in an assignment due during a road trip upon immediate return from the road trip (as per school policy). Yes, there are some problems, but the VAST MAJORITY of student-athletes ARE students and can hold up well in the classroom. The average GPA of the members of both my soccer and track teams were ABOVE the GPA for the student body and many of us graduated with honors. Same with my then-girlfriend's gymnastics team.

ludahai said:

Ivy Schools don't have athletic scholarships. Do they accept athletes that are not academically qualified?

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They do accept athletes not as academically qualified. And I know colleges like Harvard don't have academic scholarships either; its all need based. Furthermore, I know Harvard specifically sends out likely letters to athletes.

ludahai said:

Most athletes DON'T forget that. You just see SOME don't do well in school and that gives the rest of us a bad name. Some of us wouldn't even be able to attend university were it not for athletic scholarships... not for academic reasons, but for financial ones...

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Its the other way around, I think. Most athletes forget, and some, like you, do/did not.

I haven't read all the responses, so this may have been covered, but football and to a lesser extent basketball programs at major universities make HUGE amounts of money for the schools, and this money is created by the labor of athletes who are not paid directly for their services. The money that schools make on their football programs, alone, are often enough to finance the operation of their entire sports programs, and so the students who wish to perform in the less glamorous sports are afforded an opportunity they might not have without the income from the big sports.

I can walk from my house to a University with one of the best football programs in the country, and not only does the program bring in scads of money, it helps employ people in the community. From the construction workers who build and maintain arenas and stadiums, to the vendors that sell things to the fans andthe advertising revenue created by promotions -- the economic benefit to the entire community here is tremendous, and all because of college athletes are working their butts off for no pay.

I think offering them a scholorship is the least we can do, myself. If 50 or 100 out of a total enrollment of 15-50000 might not have been qualified otherwise, who cares? They give more than they take when it comes to their labor.

TurtleDude said:

stanford does OK in both-its a far better school academically than UVA and has better sports though in all fairness, UVA turned me down for law school (out of state quotas were slim that year) and Stanford accepted me

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Also, Duke.

It is a benefit as sports programs add income to the University. There is a lot of money in some of the events. This is about money and not about intelligence. The University may well be able to offer other students scholarships for academics because of the money gained by the sports programs.

repeter said:

They do accept athletes not as academically qualified. And I know colleges like Harvard don't have academic scholarships either; its all need based. Furthermore, I know Harvard specifically sends out likely letters to athletes.

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That's only half-true. All the ivies send likely letters to athletes. However, as stated before, athletes cannot be more than one SD from the mean AI. I know many recruited athletes that were ridic smart (one kid was recruited for wrestling with a 2390 SAT to my school. Did he not deserve it?). Each coach per sport gets ONE pick per year that they can "recruit" and be essentially guarenteed admission. However, they have to be academically qualified via the AI scale.


I'd just like to note: I was asked at a BB bank at an interview for a summer analyst position just this past semester why I never participated on a team sport. I did club hockey, but didn't think it was relevant to finance, so I didn't put it on my resume. That question, honestly, was the most surprising I ever got at an interview.

ludahai said:

I never ONCE received any kind of exception due to my athletic involvement with the exception of being able to hand in an assignment due during a road trip upon immediate return from the road trip (as per school policy). Yes, there are some problems, but the VAST MAJORITY of student-athletes ARE students and can hold up well in the classroom. The average GPA of the members of both my soccer and track teams were ABOVE the GPA for the student body and many of us graduated with honors. Same with my then-girlfriend's gymnastics team.

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You should have been really good at the right sport. Then you could have done whatever you want.

katiegrrl0 said:

It is a benefit as sports programs add income to the University. There is a lot of money in some of the events. This is about money and not about intelligence. The University may well be able to offer other students scholarships for academics because of the money gained by the sports programs.

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People like to keep saying this, but it's simply not true. For very big programs (and that's not a large percentage of Universities out there), the academic side of the University can get some benefit from their sports teams. But they don't get a lot of money, most of the money made stays in the athletics department. Hookers aren't cheap you know. The money that makes it outside the athletics department is primarily used for advertising, and some small fraction (if it's a big program) makes it to academia.

However, there are only so many Ohio State University, University of Florida, Texas A&M, etc. out there. Other schools derive little to no benefit from the sports program on the academic side. In fact, it can be quite the opposite and siphon tons of money away from the academic side so some coach can make ridiculous money to never win a game, so student fees can be increased to make an indoor practice facility for a team that won't ever win. Give give give by the academic side of the University, take take take by the athletics side. And in the end, there is no real benefit gained from doing so. However, we have somehow ingrained it into our psyche that we must have a football team, we must have a basketball team, we must support this and that; even at Universities which cannot really support it. So to the generalized question as to whether or not admitting students based on sports is beneficial, it's not. Because the only place the University in terms of academia can hope to benefit from the sports programs is in schools with very large programs. And those happen to be the programs which will also have the most cheating.

repeter said:

Is it a good idea to keep admitting students to colleges based on their athletic skills rather than their academic skills?

While I'm not against considering sports as a benefit to a student's resume, I'm talking about recruiting people specifically because of their sports skills.

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It isn't good for the vast majority of the students who, usually don't graduate and usually don't go on to play professional sports.

Dutch said:

It isn't good for the vast majority of the students who, usually don't graduate and usually don't go on to play professional sports.

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That's an interesting point. I wonder what the graduation rate of student athletes are. Also, I wonder what the break down in major is in. Not all of them can major in underwater basket weaving.

Ikari said:

That's an interesting point. I wonder what the graduation rate of student athletes are. Also, I wonder what the break down in major is in. Not all of them can major in underwater basket weaving.

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Some of them do aboveground