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Manufacturing jobs - Read post before voting!

Suggestion on gaining more manufacturing plants within the US a good idea?


  • Total voters
    27
Am suggesting lowering regulations, and lowering Corprate taxes.

I don't think anyone wants unnecessary regulations. With some companies paying nothing now it would be hard to lower that tax burden on them.

I think this proposal is a good step in the right direction.
 
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I don't think anyone wants unnecessary regulations. With some companies paying nothing now it would be hard to lower that tax burden on them.

I think this proposal is a good step in the right direction.

What companies would that be? America has the second hightest Corprate tax rate behind Japan.
 
Great idea, and it makes perfect sense. Tax payers should not pay the bill and get nothing in return.
 
I'm not sure any of this is necessary. China has been cheating its way to prosperity on the backs of its people through inflationary principles. They play with the valuation of their currency to keep the upper hand in exports. However, inflation is skyrocketing in China, so they won't be able to maintain this forever. The chickens will come home to roost one way or another. You can't cheat the system forever. Once the prices of their goods start going back up, manufacturing will return.
 
Need your opinion on this idea. Hopefully it would bring more manufacturing jobs back into the US.

It is well known that the federal government gives subsidies and grants to corporations for researching various forms of technology. Then once those corporations discover something useful it is often sent across the border or over seas to manufacturing plants to produce en masse. (not saying all of em do...just a good majority). So here is my proposal.

Make a law/rule/regulation...whatever you want to call it...that states that any corporation or organization that uses any form of government assistence would be required to manufacture any and all types of products that was discovered with said assistance inside US borders for X amount of years. (at least 20 imo)

So what do you think? Feel free to give suggestions that would expand on this idea. :)

I dislike the idea for a couple reasons.

Let's start out with the more general question: Why should we be encouraging manufacturing jobs to stay in the United States in the first place? Is there something specific about manufacturing you think we need to protect, or do you just dislike ANY jobs leaving the country? Manufacturing goes overseas because it is more profitable to do it overseas. It's just not something the US has a competitive advantage at doing. Our competitive advantage lies in other things - great IT, great emerging technologies, great business practices, great universities, etc. There is no need to specifically protect manufacturing jobs. If, on the other hand, we're talking about protecting jobs in general, there are far easier ways to do it than this. I'm not sure this would even achieve the desired goal of higher employment.

Now, onto the more specific question, about government subsidies for R&D and protecting those developments. I think we need to examine why the government subsidizes R&D for certain technologies in the first place, and just eliminate it if there isn't a good reason. If it's outright corporate welfare, then we would be better off just ending the subsidies instead of implementing a complex regulatory framework to protect the innovations. On the other hand, if there is some compelling public interest in developing certain technologies, then it really shouldn't matter where they are manufactured, as long as Americans have access to them. In either case, I'd be against a mandate to keep them in country.

Furthermore, I think the idea is unenforceable. Would they be required to manufacture ALL of the product in the US, or just the product that they were selling to Americans? What if they also received R&D subsidies from a foreign government? What constitutes "government assistance" to develop the product - I'm sure the definition of that would be litigated to death by every company that it affected. What's to stop a competitor from manufacturing the product elsewhere, thus eating into the creator's profits because they can't compete on a level playing field?

Generally speaking, most people benefit from free trade, not protectionism. If the government is funding R&D for no compelling reason, it should simply stop. And if it has a good reason, then it should celebrate the fact that the product might be manufactured elsewhere under cheaper conditions, thus increasing its availability.
 
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I say cut out the government subsidies.
 
not a bad idea. However, since costs are so much higher here, the price to consumers of said prodcuts will be significantly higher, possibly lowering sales and profitability.
 
Just make it cheaper for companies to operate and produce stuff here. That will bring jobs back to America and keep consumer costs down.

That's not really possible considering other countries can offer labor at pennies on the dollar. In fact, we need to do the opposite, we need to make it more expensive to do business elsewhere. Require companies to pay American wages regardless of where their manufacturing is done, make them follow American environmental laws, safety laws, etc. In other words, take away the cheap labor and they'll keep the work here.
 
That's not really possible considering other countries can offer labor at pennies on the dollar. In fact, we need to do the opposite, we need to make it more expensive to do business elsewhere. Require companies to pay American wages regardless of where their manufacturing is done, make them follow American environmental laws, safety laws, etc. In other words, take away the cheap labor and they'll keep the work here.

Nah. They'll just incorporate elsewhere.
 
Nah. They'll just incorporate elsewhere.

Most companies that are incorporated elsewhere also have manufacturing facilities in the U.S. Require anyone who does to follow U.S. law. Those that don't face heavy import taxes. Not that difficult.
 
Most companies that are incorporated elsewhere also have manufacturing facilities in the U.S. Require anyone who does to follow U.S. law.

Hmm. So the US government would mandate that Acme Corporation has to set up all their manufacturing facilities in the US where they have to pay high wages, or all their manufacturing facilities outside the US in cheaper countries. I know which one I'd choose.

Cephus said:
Those that don't face heavy import taxes. Not that difficult.

Free trade is probably the greatest economic development to happen to the world in the last 20 years. Why would we want to regress to protectionism? Tariffs just promote incompetence among local companies, increase misery for consumers, discourage innovation, and in the long term don't even protect the jobs they were intended to protect.
 
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not a bad idea. However, since costs are so much higher here, the price to consumers of said prodcuts will be significantly higher, possibly lowering sales and profitability.

It makes me a little sad that "keep the jobs here, keep the costs low, and simply not allow those at the top to profit as much" isn't even an option in this discussion. Keeping jobs, even manufacturing jobs, in the US for US citizens to work at and make money at, is a good thing. No one could deny that. More people will have more ability to engage in commerce and trade, and will have more wealth. This is good. However, producing prosperity in America is more expensive than anywhere else in absolute cost. It costs more to live here, and to live at what we consider reasonable standards. I feel that limiting the ability of business leaders to make millions and millions of dollars for their own benefit would improve this situation, but I'm aware that many disagree.

What I'm sure we don't disagree on is the need for more people in this country to have more prosperity and more buying power. The biggest problem our economy is facing right now is massive unemployment. Bring jobs back here. We need them.
 
Some good questions here. Though I am no expert I'll try to answer them as best I can.

Let's start out with the more general question: Why should we be encouraging manufacturing jobs to stay in the United States in the first place? Is there something specific about manufacturing you think we need to protect, or do you just dislike ANY jobs leaving the country? Manufacturing goes overseas because it is more profitable to do it overseas. It's just not something the US has a competitive advantage at doing. Our competitive advantage lies in other things - great IT, great emerging technologies, great business practices, great universities, etc. There is no need to specifically protect manufacturing jobs. If, on the other hand, we're talking about protecting jobs in general, there are far easier ways to do it than this. I'm not sure this would even achieve the desired goal of higher employment.

In order to answer this I must start out by asking an economic question. What creates wealth for a country? One of the first things that most economists will say is "products". The best and only way to get a product is to make a product. This is what manufacturing does. Creates products en masse. The more of a product that you have the more that you will sell. (assuming of course that the product is something that people want) The more wealth that will be brought in.

The next thing economists will say is bringing in money from outside the country. This also is what manufacturing can do. Only difference is selling the product outside the country. This is why exporting goods is so important to any country. In fact that is one of the biggest reasons that China has been able to catch up to the US so quickly in terms of wealth. They increased thier production of goods by creating and bringing in factories from other countries.

So no it is not just about the jobs. Though that is certainly another major factor for this idea. The wealthier a population the more money will be circulated, which helps keep any economy going. The only way to make the population wealthier is by keeping the population working and getting paid. One of the biggest reasons for a recession is people stop buying things. If people have money, and know that they will continue to make money, the more they will be willing to spend.

Now, onto the more specific question, about government subsidies for R&D and protecting those developments. I think we need to examine why the government subsidizes R&D for certain technologies in the first place, and just eliminate it if there isn't a good reason. If it's outright corporate welfare, then we would be better off just ending the subsidies instead of implementing a complex regulatory framework to protect the innovations. On the other hand, if there is some compelling public interest in developing certain technologies, then it really shouldn't matter where they are manufactured, as long as Americans have access to them. In either case, I'd be against a mandate to keep them in country.

For this there are many reasons to support R&D. A major one that should concern everyone in the country would be that if they don't then it is quite possible that other countries that are willing to give out money for R&D will eventually surpass the US technology wise. (for the simple fact that the more money being spent on it means more resources are able to be dedicated to what ever is being R&D'd) Quite possibly to the point were we would be like N.Korea vs the US right now. All bluster and not a big enough stick to actually threaten anyone. For this reason it is extremely important for the government to continue to help fund R&D. Now I'm not saying that this is an IMMEDIATE concern. But looking in the long range goals it certainly is.

Furthermore, I think the idea is unenforceable. Would they be required to manufacture ALL of the product in the US, or just the product that they were selling to Americans? What if they also received R&D subsidies from a foreign government? What constitutes "government assistance" to develop the product - I'm sure the definition of that would be litigated to death by every company that it affected. What's to stop a competitor from manufacturing the product elsewhere, thus eating into the creator's profits because they can't compete on a level playing field?

If they recieved nothing but US subsidies then yes they would be required to manufacture all of the product in the US. It would be pointless otherwise.

I'm not really sure about what to do if the corporation recieves subsidies from other governments. Perhaps in this case we could say to go ahead and allow them to use factories in other countries...however they would have to create an equal amount of factories/jobs in the US? Put it on a 1:1 basis. Though I am unsure of how this would affect prices... Ultimately the questions that you have in this paragraph would have to be answered by people far smarter than me.

As for what constitutes government asssistance? We can keep it simple to start out. Any company that recieves monies/subsidies from any government agency would be subject to my idea.

As for whats to stop a competitor? Copy right infringments. Pretty much any company will put a copy right on any product...often in many different countries. And they will do whatever they can to keep that copy right as long as possible. Since my idea only allows for a company to have to make the product in the US for a certain amount of time they will eventually be able to move the manufacturing over seas. Between copy rights and them being able to eventually move to "greener" pastures they should be protected in this way.

Generally speaking, most people benefit from free trade, not protectionism. If the government is funding R&D for no compelling reason, it should simply stop. And if it has a good reason, then it should celebrate the fact that the product might be manufactured elsewhere under cheaper conditions, thus increasing its availability.

Part of this was answered above so I'll only address what I haven't addressed already. You are correct that generally most people benefit from free trade. But as with anything else...too much of something can be a bad thing. There has to be a middle ground. As it stands now there are too many corporations which have thier main officies based in the US (partly because of the subsidies they are able to get by being based here) but thier manufacturing jobs are outsourced to outside countries. This brings in no wealth for the country. In fact it costs us in the long run. This is one of the reasons that we are having such a hard time in this country right now. Too much money going out...not enough coming in. Partly due to the Free Trade Agreement.

Hope I satisfactorily answered at least most of your questions.
 
It makes me a little sad that "keep the jobs here, keep the costs low, and simply not allow those at the top to profit as much" isn't even an option in this discussion. Keeping jobs, even manufacturing jobs, in the US for US citizens to work at and make money at, is a good thing. No one could deny that. More people will have more ability to engage in commerce and trade, and will have more wealth. This is good. However, producing prosperity in America is more expensive than anywhere else in absolute cost. It costs more to live here, and to live at what we consider reasonable standards. I feel that limiting the ability of business leaders to make millions and millions of dollars for their own benefit would improve this situation, but I'm aware that many disagree.

What I'm sure we don't disagree on is the need for more people in this country to have more prosperity and more buying power. The biggest problem our economy is facing right now is massive unemployment. Bring jobs back here. We need them.

I only disagree with one line in that post... see if you can guess which one ;)
 
no, the intent of the idea is to keep jobs here in the USA. the effect of the idea, however, is to de facto raise the costs of doing R&D in the United States. companies will therefore have strong incentives to move their R&D (one of the industries we currently shine at) off-shore.
 
So are you saying that Americans can't do the job properly or that there isn't enough of the right type of trained Americans do accomplish what needs to be done?

Americans can do the job properly and I am sure that some are trained to do it, but they cost too much money, or it would require an adjustment of our companies resources that is enough of a pain that we just don't do it.

Let me ask you a question, if our company can hire someone to do the job cheaper, why shouldn't we?
 
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no, the intent of the idea is to keep jobs here in the USA. the effect of the idea, however, is to de facto raise the costs of doing R&D in the United States.

If they are getting getting subsidies and grants from us the tax payer for research, is the cost of R&D really an issue?
companies will therefore have strong incentives to move their R&D (one of the industries we currently shine at) off-shore.

If they do that then they should be cut off of subsidies and grants.
 
Need your opinion on this idea. Hopefully it would bring more manufacturing jobs back into the US.

It is well known that the federal government gives subsidies and grants to corporations for researching various forms of technology. Then once those corporations discover something useful it is often sent across the border or over seas to manufacturing plants to produce en masse. (not saying all of em do...just a good majority). So here is my proposal.

Make a law/rule/regulation...whatever you want to call it...that states that any corporation or organization that uses any form of government assistence would be required to manufacture any and all types of products that was discovered with said assistance inside US borders for X amount of years. (at least 20 imo)

So what do you think? Feel free to give suggestions that would expand on this idea. :)

Not a bad idea...I'd go a step further...I'd offer corporations tax incentives to bring industrial jobs back to the US and tariff the hell out of any US company that manufactured products overseas and shipped them back to the US for sale. At the same time I would do everything I could to entice foreign manufacturers to open plants in Mexico, the US, and Canada.
 
Americans can do the job properly and I am sure that some are trained to do it, but they cost too much money, or it would require an adjustment of our companies resources that is enough of a pain that we just don't do it.

No offense but just because it is "a pain" is not really a good enough excuse. I'm sure that it is "a pain" to be environmentally friendly..doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. ;)

Let me ask you a question, if our company can hire someone to do the job cheaper, why shouldn't we?

Under ordinary circumstances I have no problem with this. However if you recieve grants and such from the government then you should be obligated to give something back to the society that let you have that grant. Remember it is our taxpayers money that is providing your company with extra money to do R&D.

Let me ask you a question, is it right that a company takes money in the form of grants (free ((free to them)) tax payer money) to research something, only to send what ever it is they discovered over to another country to be manufactured? Where is the incentive for us to give our money to you?
 
If they are getting getting subsidies and grants from us the tax payer for research, is the cost of R&D really an issue?

If they do that then they should be cut off of subsidies and grants.

R&D isn't automatically subsidized by the government; you have to be investing in turning bio-waste into green fuel for nuclear battery cars at a small price of approx. $1,308.87 a gallon in order to get the government to invest in your wonderful idea.

Medical R&D and technology, for example, is getting hit hard by increased taxes in Obamacare.
 
I think what most people are missing is that manufacturing jobs were on the decline in this country "before" free trade was established with China. Regardless if free trade agreements were made or not, manufacturing is a thing of the past. This country will never again see $20-$30/hour jobs in that sector. When the cheap labor abroad dries-up, technology will create robots and other machinery to take the place of a person on an assembly line. What the US needs is better education that will aid in continuing the innovation and creation that has kept this nation in the lead.
 
I think what most people are missing is that manufacturing jobs were on the decline in this country "before" free trade was established with China. Regardless if free trade agreements were made or not, manufacturing is a thing of the past. This country will never again see $20-$30/hour jobs in that sector. When the cheap labor abroad dries-up, technology will create robots and other machinery to take the place of a person on an assembly line. What the US needs is better education that will aid in continuing the innovation and creation that has kept this nation in the lead.

The problem with that line of thinking is that THAT is what has created the greatest divide with regard to wealth. Its economic suicide to abandon our industrial base. What you are left with is service based jobs and upper white collar jobs. Even factory and assembly lines require humans to maintain and monitor, quality test, etc. I dont disagree thats what we have done. Howver in the long term we are cutting our own throats, not only losing the jobs but also losing a customer base. Industry and labor need to sit down and find a way to make it profitable to bring the manufacturing jobs back.
 
The problem with that line of thinking is that THAT is what has created the greatest divide with regard to wealth. Its economic suicide to abandon our industrial base. What you are left with is service based jobs and upper white collar jobs. Even factory and assembly lines require humans to maintain and monitor, quality test, etc. I dont disagree thats what we have done. Howver in the long term we are cutting our own throats, not only losing the jobs but also losing a customer base. Industry and labor need to sit down and find a way to make it profitable to bring the manufacturing jobs back.

I understand completely the "doom" in this line of thinking. However, as long as investors and owners want continual growth in profits, such is laisse-faire economics. To do otherwise would be to go against the nature of capitalism in it's pure form. This is exactly what Marx and Engels predicted would happen. And while many like to believe that communism is dead, the path laid-out in the manifesto has really only just begun. Now, if people would like to actually avoid such a fate, they will open their eyes to the fact that sometimes sustainable profits beat living for short-term gains.
 
I understand completely the "doom" in this line of thinking. However, as long as investors and owners want continual growth in profits, such is laisse-faire economics. To do otherwise would be to go against the nature of capitalism in it's pure form. This is exactly what Marx and Engels predicted would happen. And while many like to believe that communism is dead, the path laid-out in the manifesto has really only just begun. Now, if people would like to actually avoid such a fate, they will open their eyes to the fact that sometimes sustainable profits beat living for short-term gains.

I get that companies are in for the bottom line and that labor did a lousy job of recognizing what their exhorbitant demands would do to the jobs. I just hope those folks get some long term vision. Lower profit per item but more over the long term due to a reinvigorated customer base. I dont think it WILL happen. Just that we are on a collision course with economic failure if we dont change.
 
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