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Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

Which of these things would improve education in the US?


  • Total voters
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There are lots of proposals for education reform in the US, not all of which can work together. What do you think are the most important things that can be done to improve education?

I think weakening the teacher unions,getting rid of tenure and firing bad teachers might help. I do not think making the school days longer or adding more days is necessary. They could however stretch the school year out by having a 3 week vacation after every 9 weeks that way everything is still fresh in the child's mind.
 
I think weakening the teacher unions,getting rid of tenure and firing bad teachers might help. I do not think making the school days longer or adding more days is necessary. They could however stretch the school year out by having a 3 week vacation after every 9 weeks that way everything is still fresh in the child's mind.

I like that idea. Some short breaks throughout the year would be better than one long summer break IMO, where kids are going to forget a lot of what they learned and spend the first quarter of the next year reviewing the material from the previous year.
 
I can tell you from personal experience that fourth graders, at least, are pretty much fried by 2 in the afternoon or so, and aren't going to do much more regardless of how long you keep them in class. Perhaps longer days could pay dividends for older students, I'm not sure. Longer school years might help, or at least do what jamesrage suggests and spread the vacation days out through the year. It takes until sometime in October to get them back to where they were in June when we have long summer vacations, and that's based on personal experience too.

The long summer vacation is a throwback to a different time, when kids were needed on the family farm. It's time we caught up with the 21st. century.
 
I think weakening the teacher unions,getting rid of tenure and firing bad teachers might help. I do not think making the school days longer or adding more days is necessary. They could however stretch the school year out by having a 3 week vacation after every 9 weeks that way everything is still fresh in the child's mind.

getting rid of tenure is a two edged issue. on one hand tenure allows crappy teachers to hang on long past their due. on the other hand, tenure prevents good teachers from being fired simply because the superintendent's nephew just graduated from college and needs a teaching job.

the public school system in my district is on a modified schedule. they start in early august and go 9 weeks. 2 week fall break. go 9 weeks. 3 week christmas break. go 9 weeks. 2 week spring break. go 9 weeks and then 9 weeks off for summer break.
 
Why is this a solution? This is just another diversion by teachers' unions, a la Haymarket. Others come up with incentives, vouchers, focus on family, etc., etc. A former union rep comes up with let's spend years implementing uniformity in curriculum. Wow. Wonder how many jobs THAT study'd conger up.



More jobs! Love it.

Subjective brag: My niece is a senior in high school. Last year, Texas Christian showed up with other colleges to recruit students. Monica talked to the TSU rep and asked, "How can I get a meaningful scholarship at TCU?" The rep told her the story of a student that year who got a $100K scholarship...had a 32 on her SAT...lots of community volunteer experience...killer essays...part-time job in a leadership role. Monica had gotten a 31 on her SAT. She retook and got a 32. She began volunteering in her hometown...drafted essays over and over again...she already had a part-time job in a leadership role as a soccer ref (having won awards for her participation). She applied to TSU last spring. She got a full ride $130K scholarship.

Aside from bragging ;-) what does this tell us? Well, where did her motivation come from? Her parents. Lots of positive reinforcement. A solid belief in the value of a good education. Parental involvement in the school lives of their children. The list could go on. But the moral is, if parents don't give a damn, neither will their children.

actually, a national curriculm would be wonderful. and that was not the only item haymarket mentioned.
 
Focus on a small set of questions (not answers). Encourage thougth that requires reading and thinking. They won't be as easy to grade as a bubble sheet, but they would tell uis more. Example: Pose a question for the semester / quarter: How big does the new parking lot have to be to accomodate x number of new students, with a budget of x. This si a small example, and likely wouldn't take the entire semester, but a more complicated question could. The answer would ideally involve a number of displines: math, science, writing, business, and government.

yes, we have to memorize rules and facts and such, but memorizing without applying has limitations.

It also helps to visit the classroom. Adminsitraters, peers, parents and any interested party should be able to schedule a visit and watch the teacher work. I visited all my kids classes and found it quite enlightening.

Also, the standard has no meaning if attached to money AND the schools get to make their own tests. This encourages cheating of some sort, even if nothing more than dumbing down.

The state where I teach was going to a test like you describe. Students were required to write and the questions required a high depth of knowledge. Now, due to budget issues, we are going back to multiple choice that will be done on the computer. They try to make multiple choice questions test more than they can. The questions are confusing because more than one answer could be correct but the student has to find the "best" answer. It is a poor way to test a student's knowledge and understanding.

I wish more parents would take an interest in what goes on in the classroom. I think many would be surprised at what goes on.
 
getting rid of tenure is a two edged issue. on one hand tenure allows crappy teachers to hang on long past their due. on the other hand, tenure prevents good teachers from being fired simply because the superintendent's nephew just graduated from college and needs a teaching job.

the public school system in my district is on a modified schedule. they start in early august and go 9 weeks. 2 week fall break. go 9 weeks. 3 week christmas break. go 9 weeks. 2 week spring break. go 9 weeks and then 9 weeks off for summer break.

Your take on tenure is exactly right. I've seen excellent teachers fired because they ticked off the wrong parent. It is not as difficult to get rid of tenured teachers as some people think. It can be done if a good principal does his/her job.
 
Your take on tenure is exactly right. I've seen excellent teachers fired because they ticked off the wrong parent. It is not as difficult to get rid of tenured teachers as some people think. It can be done if a good principal does his/her job.

if the teacher is really bad and the principal does his job and documents, it isn't that hard to fire a tenured teacher. my dad was a HS principle for 26 years and he fired many teachers with tenure.

my very first teaching job was at a middle school in central AL. about 2 weeks before school ended the principal called all the non-tenured teachers together for a meeting. superintendent was there and told us that all but one of us were not going to have our contracts renewed. 7 white teachers, 1 black teacher. I'll let you guess which one got his contract renewed.

I taught science and, by some strange coincidence, the principal's nephew was graduating that semester with a teaching degree in science. I'll also let you guess who they hired to replace me.
 
Your take on tenure is exactly right. I've seen excellent teachers fired because they ticked off the wrong parent. It is not as difficult to get rid of tenured teachers as some people think. It can be done if a good principal does his/her job.

A lot of the "do away with tenure and things will be better" opinion comes from having had a disagreement with a child's teacher.

If every teacher who got crosswise with a parent or administrator were to be fired, the classrooms would be empty.
 
A lot of the "do away with tenure and things will be better" opinion comes from having had a disagreement with a child's teacher.

If every teacher who got crosswise with a parent or administrator were to be fired, the classrooms would be empty.

the only ones left would be the ass kissers that don't really teach the kids anything anyway.
 
if the teacher is really bad and the principal does his job and documents, it isn't that hard to fire a tenured teacher. my dad was a HS principle for 26 years and he fired many teachers with tenure.

Depends on where you live. I'm guessing Alabama doesn't have strict union requirements...but in Chicago, New York, or (until recently) here in DC, it's practically impossible to fire a teacher with tenure, no matter how horrible they are. The unions have a stranglehold on the schools. :(
 
Depends on where you live. I'm guessing Alabama doesn't have strict union requirements...but in Chicago, New York, or (until recently) here in DC, it's practically impossible to fire a teacher with tenure, no matter how horrible they are. The unions have a stranglehold on the schools. :(

teacher's union membership is mandatory if you want to teach in the state. even so, if an administrator documents poor performance by a teacher, it is possible to fire tenured teachers. It just takes work on the part of the admins and, sadly, many of them are too lazy or too incompetent themselves to actually do it.
 
More private schools, less teacher unions and pensions. Anyone who has recently been in a public education system knows how big of a joke it really is. With all these programs implemented on schools that are not meeting education standards, a majority of them do nothing more than merely making it easier toward getting a degree without the adequate knowledge.
 
Depends on where you live. I'm guessing Alabama doesn't have strict union requirements...but in Chicago, New York, or (until recently) here in DC, it's practically impossible to fire a teacher with tenure, no matter how horrible they are. The unions have a stranglehold on the schools. :(
This is one of the problems with these "debates". Education is not the same everywhere. Unions are not strong where I am. I am not a member of a union nor is any teacher I know. Things vary from state to state. I don't agree with everything the unions do but the protection they offer is sometimes necessary.
 
More private schools, less teacher unions and pensions. Anyone who has recently been in a public education system knows how big of a joke it really is. With all these programs implemented on schools that are not meeting education standards, a majority of them do nothing more than merely making it easier toward getting a degree without the adequate knowledge.

As I said earlier, you can't know how it is everywhere. Some schools don't do well but many do. I've taught in some excellent schools with excellent teachers.
 
As I said earlier, you can't know how it is everywhere. Some schools don't do well but many do. I've taught in some excellent schools with excellent teachers.
Well obviously there not all bad, come on now, we both know I didn't mean that. In the bad school districts it's not all the teachers fault either, a lot can be blamed on lack of capital and funding.
 
As I said earlier, you can't know how it is everywhere. Some schools don't do well but many do. I've taught in some excellent schools with excellent teachers.

Since you have some actual knowledge of schools and teaching, blanket simplistic statements like "It's the teacher's unions" aren't going to mean much to you. If you didn't have much knowledge of the subject, then you might buy into the idea that there is some simple solution to the problems facing schools.
 
Since you have some actual knowledge of schools and teaching, blanket simplistic statements like "It's the teacher's unions" aren't going to mean much to you. If you didn't have much knowledge of the subject, then you might buy into the idea that there is some simple solution to the problems facing schools.

Why isn't there a simple solution? Seems to me all you have to do is eliminate public schooling. It would seem to me it only gets complex when you involve the government. *Shrug*
 
Why isn't there a simple solution? Seems to me all you have to do is eliminate public schooling. It would seem to me it only gets complex when you involve the government. *Shrug*

I believe if you read the rest of my post, you will see that I already answered your question, but let me ask you one in return:

What nation of the world has a totally private education system, and an educated populace?
 
Well obviously there not all bad, come on now, we both know I didn't mean that. In the bad school districts it's not all the teachers fault either, a lot can be blamed on lack of capital and funding.

You didn't qualify your earlier statement that education was a "big joke." I've been in education 17 years and I see more good than bad. Of course there are issues but those are most often caused by people who know nothing about education making the decisions.
 
I believe if you read the rest of my post, you will see that I already answered your question, but let me ask you one in return:

Where?

What nation of the world has a totally private education system, and an educated populace?

Where is there actually a totally private education system?
 
You didn't qualify your earlier statement that education was a "big joke." I've been in education 17 years and I see more good than bad. Of course there are issues but those are most often caused by people who know nothing about education making the decisions.
I do consider a majority of public education a joke. I seen many of my classmates to this day that are near the intelligent level of a rock. I know this is not the school/teachers entirely, but the system needs to have some pretty heavy changes associated to it.
 
I do consider a majority of public education a joke. I seen many of my classmates to this day that are near the intelligent level of a rock. I know this is not the school/teachers entirely, but the system needs to have some pretty heavy changes associated to it.

Other than observing fellow former classmates whose basic intelligence may indeed have nothing to do with the schools they attended, what do you base your opinion on exactly?
 
Given the state of education in our country, it's not too surprising that the best answer isn't an option in the poll. We need to change our curriculum from top to bottom, rolling back the liberal reforms of the 1920s forward. Elementary schools should teach:

Basic mathematics through pre-algebra
Elementary Greek (Attic, and perhaps Koine)
Elementary Latin (Ancient and Medieval)
English and one other foreign language, such as French or German
Athletics
Basic composition and critical thinking (identifying premises and conclusions, main ideas, telling the difference between an argument and an explanation, knowing the difference between inductive and deductive reasoning, some knowledge of the scientific method, etc.)

No need to teach Science, Philosophy, Classics, or Literature. Bottom line at this level: give students the building blocks.

Middle and High School should teach (emphasized in this order):

1) The Classics (along with continued instruction in either Latin or Greek, with opportunity for students to study both)
2) Philosophy and Logic
3) Mathematics
4) Athletics
5) History
6) Science
7) Other literature (Shakespeare, Dante, Tolstoy, Rumi, The Grail Romances, etc.--less emphasis on American authors though some should be taught)

We should add back in what those subjects are really about. Currently, we don't allow much in the way of reference to religion, sex, politics, or drugs in the literature we teach. We don't teach Philosophy because many of the positions with which it is important to be familiar have clear theological, religious, and ethical implications. This sort of censorship was and has been very foolish--we've taken out of the curriculum three-fourths of what it means to be human and what education is about.

Bottom line at this level: show students how to build a mind and why it is important to do so. Show how each subject relates to the others. To graduate high school, students ought to demonstrate basic familiarity with the the main body of each subject and relate it to the others. A high school graduate ought to know, for instance, that both language and mathematics are related in that they are systems of symbols. They ought to be able to discuss intelligently the basic positions about how those systems relate to the world. They ought to be able to place ideas in the context of history. A high school graduate ought to be able to solve complex mathematical problems involving trigonometry and differential calculus. A high school graduate ought to be able to do simple formal proofs in logic. A high school graduate ought to have read and mastered some of the great works of literature.

Proficiency in either Latin or Greek ought to be required for admittance to College (both for elite universities), as well as basic thinking skills illustrated above, and proficiency in mathematics and some form of athletics (with obvious, common-sense exceptions in the case of people who are handicapped--though anyone fit for College ought to be able to learn some competitive game, like chess).

College curricula ought to require at least 9 hours of philosophy (3 hours of logic, 3 hours survey of contemporary philosophy, 3 hours elective) with a 4.0 required in that coursework. A College graduate ought to be fluent in at least three languages (English, Latin or Greek, and one other language, ancient or modern). A College graduate ought to have completed at least 3 hours each in trigonometry and calculus, with at least a 3.5 required in that coursework. A graduate ought to be conversant with the major discoveries of science, and be able to intelligently discuss their relationship to our body of knowledge as a whole. That would probably also take at least 9 hours of coursework, and a 3.5 in that coursework. A graduate ought to have translated at least one of the major Classical works in either Latin or Greek (i.e. one of Plato's dialogues, a few of the books of Herodotus' Historia, at least a few books of Virgil's Anaeid, etc.).

The only thing I'd change in Graduate and Post Graduate studies as they currently stand is that someone seeking an advanced degree in Humanities, Literature, Philosophy, or related fields should be required to complete at least an undergraduate minor in either physics or biology. Someone seeking an advanced degree in one of the Sciences should likewise be required to complete at least an undergraduate minor in a major area of the Humanities (philosophy, literature, religious studies, etc.).
 
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I believe the following would improvement the school system

1. Getting rid of the teachers union
2. Eliminating the federal department of education
3. Returning education to the states
4. Eliminate the red tape in order start private/charter/magnet schools
5. Merit pay
 
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