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Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

Which of these things would improve education in the US?


  • Total voters
    65
How in the world am I being defensive? Strange... This is a debate site, after all. I tire of hearing ignorant people say stupid things... don't you?

Your last sentence should answer the question you posed in your first sentence.

Bodhisattva said:
Who is saying that the education system can't and shouldn't change? Perhaps instead of thinking that I have a chip on my shoulder, you should look to yourself and see why you are making such ridiculous assumptions like "nothing needs to be changed". In fact, the education system, mainly how teachers manage lessons, what to teach and how to teach it, is reviewed and reflected upon many many times over the course of the year in staff meetings, department meetings, with PD and more...

The issue here is not that.

Actually that's exactly what the issue is. The topic of this thread is "what would improve education in the United States." And the quality of parenting is not something that can easily be changed through better educational policies.

Bodhisattva said:
The issue is that people blindly and ignorantly attack teachers and the education system.

The issue here is that some teachers view any attempt to improve the educational system as an attack on them personally, thus things don't change as quickly as they should. The fact that you viewed a thread on policies to improve our schools as "blind and ignorantly attacking teachers" shows how defensive and out of touch you are, as though a school's main function was to provide YOU with employment rather than to educate students as well as possible. Your attitude is a perfect example of why education reform is so slow in coming.

Bodhisattva said:
I counter it and state that many of the points being brought up against teachers and education are really society and parenting... and what happens?

Teachers and education = Things we can actually change via policy, and therefore relevant to the topic of this thread and the forum in general.
Society and parenting = Things that cannot be changed via policy (at least not easily or predictably), and therefore not relevant to the topic of this thread or the forum in general.

Saying "parents need to do a better job" is meaningless, as there is nothing you can do about the quality of parenting. It's just a cop-out to avoid examining the flaws of our education system, or thinking about how things could be done better.
 
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Your last sentence should answer the question you posed in your first sentence.

Stating something or countering something is far different from being defensive... it is about the state of mind.
One can disagree and not be defensive, though that is a foreign concept to many, including by ex-wife.

Actually that's exactly what the issue is. The topic of this thread is "what would improve education in the United States." And the quality of parenting is not something that can easily be changed through better educational policies.

No. That is not the issue. The issue as you correctly state it is, "what would improve education in the United States".
You then limit yourself by excluding something that is one of the primary issues simply because it might not be easy to impliment.

The issue here is that some teachers view any attempt to improve the educational system as an attack on them personally, thus things don't change as quickly as they should. The fact that you viewed a thread on policies to improve our schools as "blind and ignorantly attacking teachers" shows how defensive and out of touch you are, as though a school's main function was to provide YOU with employment rather than to educate students as well as possible. Your attitude is a perfect example of why education reform is so slow in coming.

Many teachers do view it that way... agreed. And then I guess that you wouldn't mind showing how I was viewing the thread about improving the quality of schools as "blind and ignorantly attacking teachers" instead of the posters posting in this thread as "blind and ignorantly attacking teachers". Sorry, you don't seem to know jack about what I am actually debating... and instead you seem to be part of the problem. Just another hack attacking a teacher and what insights they have to offer instead of listening and learning. But hey, the problem is too difficult to take on seriously, so lets just bash education. Good job.

Teachers and education = Things we can actually change via policy, and therefore relevant to the topic of this thread and the forum in general.

Agreed, and they should be changed when and if needed. But... they already are... so...

Society and parenting = Things that cannot be changed via policy (at least not easily or predictably), and therefore not relevant to the topic of this thread or the forum in general.

What a disconnect. If the Solar Cycle was found to be the major part of Climate Change, you would say that it cannot be changed via policy (at least not easily or predictably), and therefore not relevant to the topic of this thread or the forum in general. Like I said, what a disconnect.

Saying "parents need to do a better job" is meaningless, as there is nothing you can do about the quality of parenting. It's just a cop-out to avoid examining the flaws of our education system, or thinking about how things could be done better.

Except if the major problem is parenting (and I have not once limited myself to that alone, so your assertion is retarded) then that should be addressed, and there are more than a few ways that this can be addressed. School/Family nights for one. They already do this in lower socio-economic areas, especially latino... and it works. That being siad, there are other equally concerning issues that I have addressed, but you chose to ignore those in favor of a seemingly easy target... a teacher who seems to be attacknig parenting in order to make an excuse for poor education.

Nice try, but ultimately a FAIL.

Wanna go for double jeopardy?
 
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You've got nothing but your hatred of teachers... very apparent.
 
I voted for longer years, better funding, and more online options... I am not well researched in this area so I voted for what seemed the best based on my own experience.

I really wanted to do more paced learning or online courses when I was in school... My nephew goes to a private school where that is mostly what they do, with guidance from the teacher and it works great for him. I think it's hard for a teacher to teach a large class of students, and try to keep them engaged and nearly on the same level. Some students are stronger in areas than others... duh. Learning needs to be more personalized and students have to be encouraged to take responsibility for it. They shouldn't be able to sit in a class passively while a teacher lectures.
 
What do you guys think about the idea of online education, to reduce the need for so many teachers and brick-and-mortar schools? It would be easy to produce lessons that could be reused for several years at no additional cost, and one teacher could easily handle classes of 100+ students since there wouldn't be an issue with class disruption or being stuck in the back of a crowded auditorium. This will free up a lot more taxpayer money to be invested in other aspects of education, and it will free students from the stranglehold of their school district so that students will no longer be doomed by their geography. Furthermore, it would allow students to work at their own pace, so the smart kids aren't bored and the remedial kids aren't forgotten.

I realize that online education is probably not quite good enough yet to compete with the best schools in the country...but I can't help but think that it would be a MAJOR improvement for the millions of kids trapped in inner-city schools where teachers don't teach and students fear for their safety, or poor rural schools where the curriculum is severely limited by lack of funding and lack of interest.

You mentioned inner city schools... and I think one of the best things an online education can do, is put some students in a better situation to learn than throwing the student in a class full of ill behaved kids in a poorly run school.

I went to a city school for one year, and it was god awful. Students yelling at teachers throughout the class. I think about it now as an adult, and I think wtf... Those kids were so stupid and disrespectful… makes me want to go back in time and pop them in the mouths! :2mad:

… and why the h*ll did some of those teachers argue back with them and threaten to send them to the principal's office for 20 minutes?!!? I don’t remember learning anything at that school. I just remember the students being terrible, yelling in class.. cussing, talking about drugs.. right in front of the teacher. I also remember the school being closed due to bomb threats a few times. It was also in the news that a boy brought a gun to that school one day, but he was caught.

.. so yes, it would be better to take an online class than be in a school like that
 
Of the choices listed, weakening the teachers' unions is the most effective one. Firing incompetent teachers comes second. Online education can also improve education.

For public schools, considering how wasteful they are, longer school days and years, higher salaries, and more funding are just throwing money away. We can already observe this by comparing the heavily funded Washington D.C. schools with poorly funded schools elsewhere.

The most effective way to improve education is a separation of education and state--in other words, privatization of all education. We all know, or should know, that private and home schooling are far superior to the government-run variety. And the cost per pupil is far less.

So why keep throwing money into the dumpster of government-run education? Do you want your children to be pawns for the state and the teachers' unions?

Why not demand an effective way to improve education? Chop off the heads of the teachers' union hydra and use half the money spent on "public" education to provide far superior educations for everybody.
 
You left a few things out. Higher standards that don't involve a bubble multiple choice test. A culture that values reading. More tiger moms and dads. Just to name a few more.
 
You left a few things out. Higher standards that don't involve a bubble multiple choice test.

I like this idea, but I'm not sure how to implement it in practice. Maybe standardized tests aren't the best way, but I think there needs to be SOME kind of empirical measurement. How do you suggest holding teachers to higher standards?
 
I like this idea, but I'm not sure how to implement it in practice. Maybe standardized tests aren't the best way, but I think there needs to be SOME kind of empirical measurement. How do you suggest holding teachers to higher standards?

Focus on a small set of questions (not answers). Encourage thougth that requires reading and thinking. They won't be as easy to grade as a bubble sheet, but they would tell uis more. Example: Pose a question for the semester / quarter: How big does the new parking lot have to be to accomodate x number of new students, with a budget of x. This si a small example, and likely wouldn't take the entire semester, but a more complicated question could. The answer would ideally involve a number of displines: math, science, writing, business, and government.

yes, we have to memorize rules and facts and such, but memorizing without applying has limitations.

It also helps to visit the classroom. Adminsitraters, peers, parents and any interested party should be able to schedule a visit and watch the teacher work. I visited all my kids classes and found it quite enlightening.

Also, the standard has no meaning if attached to money AND the schools get to make their own tests. This encourages cheating of some sort, even if nothing more than dumbing down.
 
1. More choices. Parents should choose which school their child attends. High schools need to include more vocational training. There need to be more online classes. Start by funding schools at the state, rather than the local, level so that every parent is contributing to every school, and so has a right to send their child to any school they choose.

2. More parent involvement. Choices should help with that one.

3. End the traditional school year that was based on the needs of an agricultural society. How many kids are needed to work on the farm in the summers in today's world? School needs to be year around.

4. Use technology. Every classroom should have a video projector and a teacher trained in its use. The teacher should have a computer with at least Power Point and internet connection to use to illustrate lessons. Homework should be internet based, with every student connected. Some students need the option of an online education.

5. Get rid of the layers of bureaucracy. Money collected for education needs to get to the classroom, where the education actually takes place.

6. Evaluation needs to depend on more than test scores. If we want to know how well kids can write, take a writing sample. How well they read is best assessed by a reading inventory. There are many tools for assessment.

7. If we are to use standardized testing to evaluate schools, then do it on a matrix sample basis. Not every child needs to spend hours bubbling in every bubble, and when they are required to do it, attention and motivation lag, depressing test scores. If each child had only a few questions to answer, then the results combined, we'd have a much truer picture of overall student achievement. Even better: Ask the questions on line, where both the student and the assessor have immediate feedback. Kids really don't care about a test when they won't see the results for months.
 
I agree with everything DittoheadNot wrote and want to add one more thing. One advantage this country has over most others is invention and entrepreneurship. This tradition should be preserved as a part of our education.

This means teach children how to teach themselves, problem solving, invention, and calculated risk taking. This means less of a focus on things like rote memorization of math problems or meeting whatever testing criteria and not actually understanding anything.

This country should lead. We should be the ones inventing Ipods, not necessarily the ones mass producing pairs of pants.
 
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I agree with everything DittoheadNot wrote and want to add one more thing. One advantage this country has over most others is invention and entrepreneurship. This tradition should be preserved as a part of our education.

This means teach children how to teach themselves, problem solving, invention, and calculated risk taking. This means less of a focus on things like rote memorization of math problems or meeting whatever testing criteria and not actually understanding anything.

This country should lead. We should be the ones inventing Ipods, not necessarily the ones mass producing pairs of pants.

Exactly, but how do you measure that on a standardized test?

Our test driven curriculum is a large part of the problem.
 
Exactly, but how do you measure that on a standardized test?

Our test driven curriculum is a large part of the problem.

You don't. But standarized tests are easy to grade and give politicians amunition.
 
You don't. But standarized tests are easy to grade and give politicians amunition.

yes, which they then shoot at our "failed government schools", the evil teacher's unions, the need for more "prayer in schools" and other absurd targets.

There is a (hopefully small) percentage of the population that would gladly do away with public education and substitute it with private schools they could use to indoctrinate children in their way of thinking. Ammunition is very important to them.
 
yes, which they then shoot at our "failed government schools", the evil teachers unions, the need for more "prayer in schools" and other absurd targets.

There is a (hopefully small) percentage of the population that would gladly do away with public education and substitute it with private schools they could use to indoctrinate children in their way of thinking. Ammunition is very important to them.
Private education via some kind of voucher system seems to me like it could work if there were enough oversight/standards to prevent the abuses you mention.

But perhaps I'm wrong.

The various ideas about improving the testing process to more accurately reflect student’s abilities, and provide them with more feedback/learning… I like em’.

As it stands, I think the tests are designed more to give schools justification for more funding in one area or another, rather than give parents an idea of how their kids are doing.

When I was homeschooled, all the tests I took that were set by my parents were shortly thereafter critiqued, and then the reasons for my incorrect answers discussed, etc…

Later, when I was teaching myself at times, I’d do the problem, check the answer, then congratulate myself or try to find out why I had screwed it up.

Now, that kind of setup can’t be exactly duplicated in a classroom environment, outside assigning under 10 students to a teacher, or something similar.

On the other hand, designing the learning environment to as closely resemble such as is possible seems a good idea.
 
Exactly, but how do you measure that on a standardized test?

Our test driven curriculum is a large part of the problem.

You can't. Thats the problem, short sighted people who think tests mean more than they mean.
 
Greater funding did not receive much of an effect, if any at all (much to the confusion or outright frustration of researchers), school choice likewise makes sense, but again, has mixed if not little results. Increased pay for teachers helps the profession seem attractive, but has it produced remarkable results on student output? I do not recall so....

Perhaps some things can be slightly improved or greatly improved in one area or another through one or more means of reform, but I am reluctant to believe we know with exacting detail what will work for the greatest number of citizens. I think it was Peter Rossi who said something to the effect of... the better the test, there is an increase for the likelihood that the effects are zero.
 
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Longer days and longer years? How about we stop putting so damn much on kids backs and let em be kids. I would like to see shorter days and years.

Quality over Quantity works and we need to start using that concept more.
 
You can't. Thats the problem, short sighted people who think tests mean more than they mean.

That is true. And it is compounded by the fact that these tests do not measure what it both taught and learned in the classroom. Often, there is no relationship between the curriculum in the classroom and the material on the standardized test. A nation such as Japan, which has very high test scores, has one national curriculum which dovetails perfectly with the standardized test. So when do we adopt that?
 
I think the foremost thing that could improve the education system would be investment. I graduated 3 years ago, and I think the only computers my school had were mac's in the library. In todays world, there are millions of careers out their that primarily use computers. Even if you don't use one, that is how you can get your foot in the door. Most office jobs like interns work exclusively on a computer until they can move farther up in the company. Public schools are behind when it comes to teaching students new technologies. Also, I think there should be more investment in things like the school library,textbooks, and other important materials.

Total bull****! We don't need you ****ing around on facebook all day long not doing your work. We spend millions on computerizing schools. No more money for education!
 
My biggest gripe with education right now is the method honestly. Its became wholey a system of memorization and mimicry rather than teaching kids HOW to learn. The ability to grasp the benefits of hard work, reason, and how to understand things are more important than any individual fact you end up learning in school. With the more and more schools have been slaves to a singular cirriculum that determines how good or bad they're rated, the more and more we shift from teaching people how to THINK and more teaching them how to memorize. To me, that's a problem.
 
There are lots of proposals for education reform in the US, not all of which can work together. What do you think are the most important things that can be done to improve education?

hold parents responsible for the ****ty performance of their kids. If mommy and daddy don't think education is important and make little johnny and suzy do their homework and pay attention, the best schools in the world won't help.
 
yes, which they then shoot at our "failed government schools", the evil teacher's unions, the need for more "prayer in schools" and other absurd targets.

There is a (hopefully small) percentage of the population that would gladly do away with public education and substitute it with private schools they could use to indoctrinate children in their way of thinking. Ammunition is very important to them.

Quite true. Sadly.
 
Teacher pay needs to be increased so that intelligent people will take the jobs. No one who possesses the proper intellect and talent would work for a teachers salary when they can make much more money in other sectors and careers.
 
My biggest gripe with education right now is the method honestly. Its became wholey a system of memorization and mimicry rather than teaching kids HOW to learn. The ability to grasp the benefits of hard work, reason, and how to understand things are more important than any individual fact you end up learning in school. With the more and more schools have been slaves to a singular cirriculum that determines how good or bad they're rated, the more and more we shift from teaching people how to THINK and more teaching them how to memorize. To me, that's a problem.

That's a problem, I agree, but one that is being addressed. I'm not sure just what the state standards for education are where you are, but in California they include such things as determining the main idea of a paragraph, separating fact from opinion, supporting opinion with fact, and recognizing cause and effect, all grouped under the bureaucratic phrase "critical thinking skills".
 
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