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What society has more chance to survive; liberal or conservative?

What society has more chance to survive in the next 100 years?

  • Socialist liberal

    Votes: 9 45.0%
  • Christian conservative

    Votes: 5 25.0%
  • No opinion

    Votes: 6 30.0%

  • Total voters
    20
Quite false. The only person I respect more as an intellectual is Niall Ferguson.

You're an unabashed reactionary, Hanson is not.

Hanson is a hack

Niall Ferguson is on the other hand quite good
 
You're an unabashed reactionary, Hanson is not.

Hanson wrote Mexifornia. Have you read it? Hanson agrees with me on the fact that there are two Californias. There is no getting around that fact.

Calling me names won't help you.
 
Hanson wrote Mexifornia. Have you read it? Hanson agrees with me on the fact that there are two Californias. There is no getting around that fact.

Calling me names won't help you.
I haven't yet read it, but I did see the Bookenotes episode on it a speech he gave on the subject. His work is quite good and correct, I simply take issue with people constantly associating him with the American right.

Hanson is a hack

Niall Ferguson is on the other hand quite good
How do you figure that he's a hack?

He's the only person I've yet encountered who manages not to fall into the trap of what he calls the "therapeutic mindset." As far as his work on illegal immigration goes, he's the only genuinely concerned voice on the issue that doesn't have some sort of creepy Christian Identity subtext.
 
California driver's licenses and insurance requirements don't prevent illegal Mexican aliens from driving. But I have to have a license and insurance.

If I serve food to the public I have to have a health permit. That rule doesn't apply to Mexicans serving food from stands.

I have to file tax returns. Mexican citizens don't bother filing returns in my experience. There are two Californias:
VDH's Private Papers:: Two Californias
Ilegals don't have the paperwork because they are illegals.


On the western side of the Central Valley, the effects of arbitrary cutoffs in federal irrigation water have idled tens of thousands of acres of prime agricultural land, leaving thousands unemployed. Manufacturing plants in the towns in these areas — which used to make harvesters, hydraulic lifts, trailers, food-processing equipment — have largely shut down; their production has been shipped off overseas or south of the border. Agriculture itself — from almonds to raisins — has increasingly become corporatized and mechanized, cutting by half the number of farm workers needed. So unemployment runs somewhere between 15 and 20 percent.

What an anomaly — with suddenly soaring farm prices, still we have thousands of acres in the world’s richest agricultural belt, with available water on the east side of the valley and plentiful labor, gone idle or in disuse.

This isn't the fault of Mexicans, but rather corporate interests.
 
No problem, nothing you say will change the fact that all you've done is co-opt the ideas of a genius for your twisted ideology.
 
Ilegals don't have the paperwork because they are illegals.






This isn't the fault of Mexicans, but rather corporate interests.

Yeah they do. They get forged birth certificates and use other people's social security nos. It's very common.

Besides, illegals have matriculation cards from Mexican consulates. They just don't comply because no one enforces the law against them. The law only applies to citizens, not illegals. They just ignore it unless they have something to gain.
 
Yeah they do. They get forged birth certificates and use other people's social security nos. It's very common.

Besides, illegals have matriculation cards from Mexican consulates. They just don't comply because no one enforces the law against them. The law only applies to citizens, not illegals. They just ignore it unless they have something to gain.

Tell me then, what benefits would the cops get from ignoring illegals?
 
Only Christian Conservative societies have enough children and moral to survive, all Liberals societies will be replaced by Islam States with the Sharia law not later as in fifty years.

I smell a conspiracy theory in the making here... :ninja:
 
No problem, nothing you say will change the fact that all you've done is co-opt the ideas of a genius for your twisted ideology.

This is what Victor Davis Hanson has written. You are unfamiliar with Hanson.

"Again, I do not editorialize, but I note these vast transformations over the last 20 years that are the paradoxical wages of unchecked illegal immigration from Mexico, a vast expansion of California’s entitlements and taxes, the flight of the upper middle class out of state, the deliberate effort not to tap natural resources, the downsizing in manufacturing and agriculture, and the departure of whites, blacks, and Asians from many of these small towns to more racially diverse and upscale areas of California.

Fresno’s California State University campus is embroiled in controversy over the student body president’s announcing that he is an illegal alien, with all the requisite protests in favor of the DREAM Act. I won’t comment on the legislation per se, but again only note the anomaly. I taught at CSUF for 21 years. I think it fair to say that the predominant theme of the Chicano and Latin American Studies program’s sizable curriculum was a fuzzy American culpability. By that I mean that students in those classes heard of the sins of America more often than its attractions. In my home town, Mexican flag decals on car windows are far more common than their American counterparts.

I note this because hundreds of students here illegally are now terrified of being deported to Mexico. I can understand that, given the chaos in Mexico and their own long residency in the United States. But here is what still confuses me: If one were to consider the classes that deal with Mexico at the university, or the visible displays of national chauvinism, then one might conclude that Mexico is a far more attractive and moral place than the United States.

So there is a surreal nature to these protests: something like, “Please do not send me back to the culture I nostalgically praise; please let me stay in the culture that I ignore or deprecate.” I think the DREAM Act protestors might have been far more successful in winning public opinion had they stopped blaming the U.S. for suggesting that they might have to leave at some point, and instead explained why, in fact, they want to stay. What it is about America that makes a youth of 21 go on a hunger strike or demonstrate to be allowed to remain in this country rather than return to the place of his birth?

I think I know the answer to this paradox. Missing entirely in the above description is the attitude of the host, which by any historical standard can only be termed “indifferent.” California does not care whether one broke the law to arrive here or continues to break it by staying. It asks nothing of the illegal immigrant — no proficiency in English, no acquaintance with American history and values, no proof of income, no record of education or skills. It does provide all the public assistance that it can afford (and more that it borrows for), and apparently waives enforcement of most of California’s burdensome regulations and civic statutes that increasingly have plagued productive citizens to the point of driving them out. How odd that we overregulate those who are citizens and have capital to the point of banishing them from the state, but do not regulate those who are aliens and without capital to the point of encouraging millions more to follow in their footsteps. How odd — to paraphrase what Critias once said of ancient Sparta — that California is at once both the nation’s most unfree and most free state, the most repressed and the wildest.

Hundreds of thousands sense all that and vote accordingly with their feet, both into and out of California — and the result is a sort of social, cultural, economic, and political time-bomb, whose ticks are getting louder."
VDH's Private Papers:: Two Californias
 
Tell me then, what benefits would the cops get from ignoring illegals?

It depends. Sanctuary City policies require cops to ignore illegals for most offenses. Sanctuary City policies prohibit cooperation with DHSecurity.

Last week my younger son's girlfriend was in an auto accident with an illegal. The illegal fled the scene and abandoned the car. The car's registration was out of date. This is what it is like here.
 
This is what Victor Davis Hanson has written. You are unfamiliar with Hanson.

"Again, I do not editorialize, but I note these vast transformations over the last 20 years that are the paradoxical wages of unchecked illegal immigration from Mexico, a vast expansion of California’s entitlements and taxes, the flight of the upper middle class out of state, the deliberate effort not to tap natural resources, the downsizing in manufacturing and agriculture, and the departure of whites, blacks, and Asians from many of these small towns to more racially diverse and upscale areas of California.

Fresno’s California State University campus is embroiled in controversy over the student body president’s announcing that he is an illegal alien, with all the requisite protests in favor of the DREAM Act. I won’t comment on the legislation per se, but again only note the anomaly. I taught at CSUF for 21 years. I think it fair to say that the predominant theme of the Chicano and Latin American Studies program’s sizable curriculum was a fuzzy American culpability. By that I mean that students in those classes heard of the sins of America more often than its attractions. In my home town, Mexican flag decals on car windows are far more common than their American counterparts.

I note this because hundreds of students here illegally are now terrified of being deported to Mexico. I can understand that, given the chaos in Mexico and their own long residency in the United States. But here is what still confuses me: If one were to consider the classes that deal with Mexico at the university, or the visible displays of national chauvinism, then one might conclude that Mexico is a far more attractive and moral place than the United States.

So there is a surreal nature to these protests: something like, “Please do not send me back to the culture I nostalgically praise; please let me stay in the culture that I ignore or deprecate.” I think the DREAM Act protestors might have been far more successful in winning public opinion had they stopped blaming the U.S. for suggesting that they might have to leave at some point, and instead explained why, in fact, they want to stay. What it is about America that makes a youth of 21 go on a hunger strike or demonstrate to be allowed to remain in this country rather than return to the place of his birth?

I think I know the answer to this paradox. Missing entirely in the above description is the attitude of the host, which by any historical standard can only be termed “indifferent.” California does not care whether one broke the law to arrive here or continues to break it by staying. It asks nothing of the illegal immigrant — no proficiency in English, no acquaintance with American history and values, no proof of income, no record of education or skills. It does provide all the public assistance that it can afford (and more that it borrows for), and apparently waives enforcement of most of California’s burdensome regulations and civic statutes that increasingly have plagued productive citizens to the point of driving them out. How odd that we overregulate those who are citizens and have capital to the point of banishing them from the state, but do not regulate those who are aliens and without capital to the point of encouraging millions more to follow in their footsteps. How odd — to paraphrase what Critias once said of ancient Sparta — that California is at once both the nation’s most unfree and most free state, the most repressed and the wildest.

Hundreds of thousands sense all that and vote accordingly with their feet, both into and out of California — and the result is a sort of social, cultural, economic, and political time-bomb, whose ticks are getting louder."
VDH's Private Papers:: Two Californias
I've read the paper; I know what it says. I never spoke a word against it, or claimed that he said something else.
 
I've read the paper; I know what it says. I never spoke a word against it, or claimed that he said something else.

How does Hanson's position in the paper differ from my position that many laws do not apply to illegal Mexican citizens living in California?
 
Last week my younger son's girlfriend was in an auto accident with an illegal. The illegal fled the scene and abandoned the car. The car's registration was out of date. This is what it is like here.

Like this same situation wouldnt happen if the guy was a US citizen? Give me a break
 
Like this same situation wouldnt happen if the guy was a US citizen? Give me a break

I've been in accidents with US citizens. None has ever fled the scene of the accident. Same for my family and friends. But I know one illegal alien who fled the scene of an accident.

So to the best of my knowledge an American is less likely to flee the scene of an accident than an illegal alien.
 
I've been in accidents with US citizens. None has ever fled the scene of the accident. Same for my family and friends. But I know one illegal alien who fled the scene of an accident.

So to the best of my knowledge an American is less likely to flee the scene of an accident than an illegal alien.

It's great that ridiculous and unverifiable claims made from a personal opinion with a clear agenda aren't to be taken seriously.
 
Conservatives - cuz we have guns and we're not afraid to defend ourselves.

I have to ask. What do you teach? Is it history? Please, for the love of Buddha, tell me it's not history. Tell me you majored in something that doesn't require you to think in a global context. Because only a really ****ty history teacher would think that the only way for a society to die is because it's being attacked from the outside. Not only that but an even ****tier history teacher would think that if a society is armed, it's less likely to die out. How did that work for the Mongols, Romans and Huns? There are more examples of civilizations and societies having died out due to oppressive conservative governments than from being too liberalized. You might as well be telling us that a conservative society won't die out because it's got God on it's side. Not only is your answer devoid of any logical argument it's actually ridiculous.
 
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It's great that ridiculous and unverifiable claims made from a personal opinion with a clear agenda aren't to be taken seriously.

You sound like an existentialist. If you lived in California you would believe me.
 
Give us the examples to which you refer please.

Just some examples from across time: American Puritans, Franco's Spain, Pinochet's Chile.

All socially conservative. All died out relatively quickly.
 
Just some examples from across time: American Puritans, Franco's Spain, Pinochet's Chile.

All socially conservative. All died out relatively quickly.

Can you tell us why in your opinion oppresive conservative governments die out so often? China is a conservative oppressive country. It's thriving.
 
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