Do You believe Noah?

liblady said:

oh dear.....nobody ever heard of wooden nails? i don't believe the story, but c'mon.

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Wooden nails are not strong enough to support a ship of that size.

Hoplite said:

Wooden nails are not strong enough to support a ship of that size.

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i know......what would be?

Hoplite said:

Wooden nails are not strong enough to support a ship of that size.

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Depends on the size of the dowel (otherwise known as a wooden nail).

liblady said:

i know......what would be?

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You could do it out of fiberglass, but the material of choice would be steel. Modern aircraft carriers are a prime example.

Ockham said:

Depends on the size of the dowel (otherwise known as a wooden nail).

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Upping the size increases your problems. You have a fixed size to work with because of the width of a tree and the more of that is taken up by a fastener, ultimately the weaker that section will be when the ship starts to torque.

Ships are not rigid at sea, otherwise they'd snap in half. When this happens to a ship like the ark, it would probably break up.

Hoplite said:

You could do it out of fiberglass, but the material of choice would be steel. Modern aircraft carriers are a prime example.



Upping the size increases your problems. You have a fixed size to work with because of the width of a tree and the more of that is taken up by a fastener, ultimately the weaker that section will be when the ship starts to torque.

Ships are not rigid at sea, otherwise they'd snap in half. When this happens to a ship like the ark, it would probably break up.

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Along with this, I've heard plenty of creationists argue that the grand canyon, rather than being created over millions of years of slowly flowing water, could have been created during one massive global flood. Imagine a flood, with enough raging waters to dig hundred of feet down into clay and soil and earth, then imagine the largest wooden boat ever built by a guy who had no prior experience and no modern tools and conveniences floating on top of that same flood and the boat comes out perfectly fine with all animals still on board etc. It's a laughable proposition unless you conclude that they had divine intervention the entire time during the construction and during the flood. The story is so similar to all the other myths of the time, just like many of Jesus's traits are (virgin birth, the miracles etc) that I can't understand how anybody could possible try to rationalize any of it.

Hoplite said:

Upping the size increases your problems. You have a fixed size to work with because of the width of a tree and the more of that is taken up by a fastener, ultimately the weaker that section will be when the ship starts to torque.

Ships are not rigid at sea, otherwise they'd snap in half.

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I'll disagree to a point. Yes there's an upper and lower limit to the size of the nail. However, wood not only bends and already is flexible, but these ships even way back then would have been very wet. Such amounts of water would make the fastners swell making the connection tighter. Wood by it's nature of fibers flexes. There's some discussion over what kind of wood was used though the bible says "gopher" wood. This might make it cedar, cyprus or a type of pine. The size of the ark is 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. Lemme tell ya, those are some large dowels.

Hoplite said:

Wooden nails are not strong enough to support a ship of that size.

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I don't know why you bother with the biblicists.

Even if the bible said that Noah jumped over the moon or put the sun in his pocket, we'd still have believers defending the literal truth of these claims. They have the mindset that nothing is too extraordinary and the burden of proof is always on the doubter.

You simply can't debate people who have such outrageous presuppositions. You can't debate people who can't show/explain WHY they are correct.

roughdraft274 said:

Along with this, I've heard plenty of creationists argue that the grand canyon, rather than being created over millions of years of slowly flowing water, could have been created during one massive global flood. Imagine a flood, with enough raging waters to dig hundred of feet down into clay and soil and earth, then imagine the largest wooden boat ever built by a guy who had no prior experience and no modern tools and conveniences floating on top of that same flood and the boat comes out perfectly fine with all animals still on board etc. It's a laughable proposition unless you conclude that they had divine intervention the entire time during the construction and during the flood. The story is so similar to all the other myths of the time, just like many of Jesus's traits are (virgin birth, the miracles etc) that I can't understand how anybody could possible try to rationalize any of it.

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They can claim whatever they want, it's what they can prove that matters and what we can prove, by every shred of evidence, is that the Grand Canyon was made over a span of millions of years, not a single year. Just being able to make up some wingnut nonsense that supports their absurd beliefs isn't impressive. It just goes to show how delusional fundamentalists really are.

scourge99 said:

I don't know why you bother with the biblicists.

Even if the bible said that Noah jumped over the moon or put the sun in his pocket, we'd still have believers defending the literal truth of these claims. They have the mindset that nothing is too extraordinary and the burden of proof is always on the doubter.

You simply can't debate people who have such outrageous presuppositions. You can't debate people who can't show/explain WHY they are correct.

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I think the bible is correct in the sense that they were explaining things that were beyond their comprehension and using imagery and metaphors to paint the stories which on some levels are based on a carnal reality.

Noah's a case where this story is 'backed up' by the fact that around the world there is NOT ONE culture that DOES NOT have a flood myth... so, does that mean that the flood happened when all humans still hadn't left their original society, OR that means that the flood was a true carnal flood that lasted several weeks and flooded much of the land.

A good question might be 'where did that water come from??' Is there an answer within our solar system, or did it just happen that the earth passed through some 'cosmic cloud' of mostly water that effectively flooded the earth??

So, SOMETHING happened involving a large scale flood, but the reality is encoded in those ancient texts.

Cephus said:

They can claim whatever they want, it's what they can prove that matters and what we can prove, by every shred of evidence, is that the Grand Canyon was made over a span of millions of years, not a single year. Just being able to make up some wingnut nonsense that supports their absurd beliefs isn't impressive. It just goes to show how delusional fundamentalists really are.

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Ya, you can't take the bible that literally or you honestly believe the earth to be about 6000 years old and the earth was made within 6 days and human life is the result of incest. How come these people can't consider that the '6 days' might be symbolic, they might be representative of the process of creation... was this 'god' that came 'down from heavan' ?? Or are they referring to a spiritual god, or more of a psychological reality that is defined as god??? We can't truly know, and even worse, I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was different for different texts.

BmanMcfly said:

I think the bible is correct in the sense that they were explaining things that were beyond their comprehension and using imagery and metaphors to paint the stories which on some levels are based on a carnal reality.

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I have no objection to people who believe the Bible is metaphorical or mythology. There is plenty of evidence that shows such a thing occurred in many different cultures. Its the literalists and the picking-and-choosing types that I find fault with.

BmanMcfly said:

Noah's a case where this story is 'backed up' by the fact that around the world there is NOT ONE culture that DOES NOT have a flood myth...

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Yes. Floods happen. No one denies that.

What is denied is that
1) a man built a wooden boat bigger than is possible by engineers today.
2) all the animals of the world lived on it
3) the entire world was flooded to the tops of mountains
4) the world and its animals was repopulated by the survivors
5) Noah lived to be 900

scourge99 said:

I don't know why you bother with the biblicists.

Even if the bible said that Noah jumped over the moon or put the sun in his pocket, we'd still have believers defending the literal truth of these claims. They have the mindset that nothing is too extraordinary and the burden of proof is always on the doubter.

You simply can't debate people who have such outrageous presuppositions. You can't debate people who can't show/explain WHY they are correct.

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If you look at it from a atheist point of view then sure there is no way a man could live 900 hundred years, build a boat big enough to house practically every land dwelling animal on the planet,gather every land dwelling animal on the planet as well as feed,house and keep these animals from eating each other and then redistribute all those animals once the flood is over. If you believe in a supreme being who created the whole entire universe and well as divine intervention miracles and all that other stuff ,then why would anyone claiming to be a christian really doubt those things? How did Noah build a boat big enough to house every animal? How did Noah Gather all the animals to go on the ark?How did all the animals not kill or eat other other or starve to death? How did all the animals go back to where they went?How did all the plants not drown? If you are a Christian then the answer is God did it,helped or had something to do with it.

Ockham said:

I'll disagree to a point. Yes there's an upper and lower limit to the size of the nail. However, wood not only bends and already is flexible, but these ships even way back then would have been very wet. Such amounts of water would make the fastners swell making the connection tighter. Wood by it's nature of fibers flexes. There's some discussion over what kind of wood was used though the bible says "gopher" wood. This might make it cedar, cyprus or a type of pine. The size of the ark is 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. Lemme tell ya, those are some large dowels.

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The problem is even with modern shipbuilding techniques, modern tools, modern understanding of physics and ship-building, modern materials, and steel, we have not been able to reproduce a wooden ship half the size of the ark that did anything but leak. If modern methods couldn't do it, then its an extremely safe bet that ancient methods couldn't either.

scourge99 said:

I don't know why you bother with the biblicists.

Even if the bible said that Noah jumped over the moon or put the sun in his pocket, we'd still have believers defending the literal truth of these claims. They have the mindset that nothing is too extraordinary and the burden of proof is always on the doubter.

You simply can't debate people who have such outrageous presuppositions. You can't debate people who can't show/explain WHY they are correct.

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**Shrug** It's an interest intellectual exercise I guess.

BmanMcfly said:

Noah's a case where this story is 'backed up' by the fact that around the world there is NOT ONE culture that DOES NOT have a flood myth... so, does that mean that the flood happened when all humans still hadn't left their original society, OR that means that the flood was a true carnal flood that lasted several weeks and flooded much of the land.

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Simply because all mythologies have a flood myth does not mean there was a flood. We need to consider that the ancient view of things was extremely narrow; they had no way of knowing what was really going on around them and a massive local flood could have seemed like the entire world had flooded.

I mean take a look at any flood in the US. Even with modern understanding, if I was there and seeing the main street through town under 20-30 feet of water I'd probably feel like the entire world had flooded.

The problem with a GLOBAL flood is there is simply no evidence to show that it happened and there is PHYSICALLY not enough water on Earth to achieve one.

A good question might be 'where did that water come from??' Is there an answer within our solar system, or did it just happen that the earth passed through some 'cosmic cloud' of mostly water that effectively flooded the earth??

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The laws of physics state otherwise, a global flood would not result from any amount of water in space striking the Earth. Such an event would wipe out ALL life on Earth, Noah and the ark included. Additionally, if this did indeed happen, you would disrupt something called the triple point of water on Earth which, again, would wipe out ALL life on Earth.

Furthermore, if we suspended enough laws of physics for this to be possible, the land would still all be flooded. The water wouldn't go anywhere and would still be here.

BmanMcfly said:

Ya, you can't take the bible that literally or you honestly believe the earth to be about 6000 years old and the earth was made within 6 days and human life is the result of incest. How come these people can't consider that the '6 days' might be symbolic, they might be representative of the process of creation... was this 'god' that came 'down from heavan' ?? Or are they referring to a spiritual god, or more of a psychological reality that is defined as god??? We can't truly know, and even worse, I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was different for different texts.

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At that point, why not accept that "God" is symbolic for natural forces that acted over billions of years? Just pretending that there's this father figure in the sky that's inordinately interested in your sex life is absurd.

jamesrage said:

If you look at it from a atheist point of view then sure there is no way a man could live 900 hundred years, build a boat big enough to house practically every land dwelling animal on the planet,gather every land dwelling animal on the planet as well as feed,house and keep these animals from eating each other and then redistribute all those animals once the flood is over.

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1) There is no "atheist point of view". Atheism is a single position on a single question: do you believe god(s) exist. You can't get from "I don't believe god exists" to "therefore a man could not live 900 years or ..."

2) I do NOT claim that it is impossible for:
A) a man to live 900 years
B) a man to build a boat big enough to house practically every land dwelling animal on the planet
C) a man to gather every land dwelling animal on the planet
D) a man to feed, house, and keep these animals from eating each other
E) a man to redistribute all those animals

What I DO claim is that there is ZERO reason to believe these things did occur. That there is ZERO reason to accept these tales as factual history. Do you understand the difference?

Its called skepticism/critical_thinking as opposed to gullibility/credulity.

jamesrage said:

If you believe in a supreme being who created the whole entire universe and well as divine intervention miracles and all that other stuff ,then why would anyone claiming to be a christian really doubt those things?

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Because even if you believe in a god who is capable of making all those things happen, you still have no reason to believe they actually did except for hear-say, opinion, and holy-book tales.

Even IF a god exists, it doesn't mean he actually did any of those things. Even IF a god exists, it doesn't mean that the tale of Noah is anything more than a myth or legend.

jamesrage said:

How did Noah build a boat big enough to house every animal? How did Noah Gather all the animals to go on the ark?How did all the animals not kill or eat other other or starve to death? How did all the animals go back to where they went?How did all the plants not drown? If you are a Christian then the answer is God did it,helped or had something to do with it.

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No. If you are gullible and credulous then you will accept those things without analyzing them critically.

Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to turn your brain off. It doesn't mean you have to believe everything written in a 2000+ year old book is literal and factual history. God gave you a brain. USE IT!

scourge99 said:

1) There is no "atheist point of view". Atheism is a single position on a single question: do you believe god(s) exist. You can't get from "I don't believe god exists" to "therefore a man could not live 900 years or ..."

2) I do NOT claim that it is impossible for:
A) a man to live 900 years
B) a man to build a boat big enough to house practically every land dwelling animal on the planet
C) a man to gather every land dwelling animal on the planet
D) a man to feed, house, and keep these animals from eating each other
E) a man to redistribute all those animals

What I DO claim is that there is ZERO reason to believe these things did occur. That there is ZERO reason to accept these tales as factual history. Do you understand the difference?

Its called skepticism/critical_thinking as opposed to gullibility/credulity.

Because even if you believe in a god who is capable of making all those things happen, you still have no reason to believe they actually did except for hear-say, opinion, and holy-book tales.

Even IF a god exists, it doesn't mean he actually did any of those things. Even IF a god exists, it doesn't mean that the tale of Noah is anything more than a myth or legend.


No. If you are gullible and credulous then you will accept those things without analyzing them critically.

Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to turn your brain off. It doesn't mean you have to believe everything written in a 2000+ year old book is literal and factual history. God gave you a brain. USE IT!

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People need to believe these things. Otherwise their lives have no meaning. They can't find meaning in their existence by taking care of their kids. They can't find meaning in their existence by being good to their neighbors. They must be told that if they do these things, they will be rewarded. It is the reward of being a good person that they seek. They're not good for the sake of their own happiness, they are good for what they stand to gain at the end of their lives.

Hatuey said:

People need to believe these things. Otherwise their lives have no meaning. They can't find meaning in their existence by taking care of their kids. They can't find meaning in their existence by being good to their neighbors. They must be told that if they do these things, they will be rewarded. It is the reward of being a good person that they seek. They're not good for the sake of their own happiness, they are good for what they stand to gain at the end of their lives.

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So essentially, you're saying these people are pathetic, stupid losers who can't find value in reality so that gives them license to just make up a bunch of nonsense to believe because it makes them feel good at the end of the day?

And you really believe that? Really?

Cephus said:

So essentially, you're saying these people are pathetic, stupid losers who can't find value in reality

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No. I am saying that they can't find purpose in the reality they live so they must A) create the purpose for that life(Heaven, Paradise etc) and B) build their lives around that purpose (going to church, being good neighbors, giving to charity etc). The 'pathetic, stupid losers' thing is your own addition.

so that gives them license to just make up a bunch of nonsense to believe because it makes them feel good at the end of the day?

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It's not that it gives them the lisence to make up as much nonsense as they want. People in this thread didn't make all that nonsense in the bible. They find meaning in it and build their lives around it.

And you really believe that? Really?

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Believe what? That religion allows people to find meaning in their lives? Sure I do. I also believe that without religion these people would not be able to find meaning in simply living their lives as best they can. I do it every day. I find meaning in my work, my family and my neighbors. My daughter is the purpose for my life. I didn't make her up. I didn't imagine her. I didn't need to read about her in a book. I'm not good because I feel I myself will be rewarded for it when I die. I try to be a good person so that she will do the same. I'm not a good person because of some benefit I will reap when I die.

Religion is a control mechanism. People are pious because they believe that the more pious they are, the greater the benefit. With centuries, this mechanism has become a culture. Christianity, Islam and every other religion are cultures that are passed down from generation to generation. It's pretty interesting because religion forces the human being to behave if it wants to reap the benefits promised by some force they can't seem to prove.

Hatuey said:

Believe what? That religion allows people to find meaning in their lives? Sure I do. I also believe that without religion these people would not be able to find meaning in simply living their lives as best they can. I do it every day. I find meaning in my work, my family and my neighbors. My daughter is the purpose for my life. I didn't make her up. I didn't imagine her. I didn't need to read about her in a book. I'm not good because I feel I myself will be rewarded for it when I die. I try to be a good person so that she will do the same. I'm not a good person because of some benefit I will reap when I die.

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I understand what you mean, but you also have to consider that many people feel some...extra force out there. I cant describe it in words very well, but it's a feeling that there are things beyond what you can see and there is a presence there, however you choose to define it, that is too big to be ignored. I would probably not be religious but for that.

I don't believe the Noah story for (and to be brutally honest with myself) any other reason than that its a story with many fantastic elements and seems to contradict my life experience and knowledge of how things work.

Hoplite said:

I understand what you mean, but you also have to consider that many people feel some...extra force out there. I cant describe it in words very well, but it's a feeling that there are things beyond what you can see and there is a presence there, however you choose to define it, that is too big to be ignored. I would probably not be religious but for that.

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That's an interesting thought. I believe religion exists because people are not able to explain everything around them so they must attribute it to something else. The evolution of religion in human culture is proof of this. Most people would not say that fire is a god. However 5,000 years ago you had cultures all over the world who said that it was. When people couldn't explain lightning they'd blame Zeus. Today we know lightning is not caused by any gods. We also know the oceans are controlled by currents. Not Poseidon or mermaids. The more we know, the less use we have for gods.

Hatuey said:

That's an interesting thought. I believe religion exists because people are not able to explain everything around them so they must attribute it to something else. The evolution of religion in human culture is proof of this. Most people would not say that fire is a god. However 5,000 years ago you had cultures all over the world who said that it was. When people couldn't explain lightning they'd blame Zeus. Today we know lightning is not caused by any gods. We also know the oceans are controlled by currents. Not Poseidon or mermaids. The more we know, the less use we have for gods.

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I think religion started that way and it persists in part because we seek an ultimate explanation, but I also feel that it persists because those who are religious do feel this sort of extraneous force.

Hatuey said:

No. I am saying that they can't find purpose in the reality they live so they must A) create the purpose for that life(Heaven, Paradise etc) and B) build their lives around that purpose (going to church, being good neighbors, giving to charity etc). The 'pathetic, stupid losers' thing is your own addition.



It's not that it gives them the lisence to make up as much nonsense as they want. People in this thread didn't make all that nonsense in the bible. They find meaning in it and build their lives around it.



Believe what? That religion allows people to find meaning in their lives? Sure I do. I also believe that without religion these people would not be able to find meaning in simply living their lives as best they can. I do it every day. I find meaning in my work, my family and my neighbors. My daughter is the purpose for my life. I didn't make her up. I didn't imagine her. I didn't need to read about her in a book. I'm not good because I feel I myself will be rewarded for it when I die. I try to be a good person so that she will do the same. I'm not a good person because of some benefit I will reap when I die.

Religion is a control mechanism. People are pious because they believe that the more pious they are, the greater the benefit. With centuries, this mechanism has become a culture. Christianity, Islam and every other religion are cultures that are passed down from generation to generation. It's pretty interesting because religion forces the human being to behave if it wants to reap the benefits promised by some force they can't seem to prove.

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So, essentially... you're a better person than people who are religious... because you don't need religion?

Arrogant attitude.

Hatuey said:

People need to believe these things. Otherwise their lives have no meaning.

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1) I don't think its reasonable to speculate on the private thoughts or motivations of others unless told.

2) If people need to believe in god and supernaturalism to find meaning in their lives then that is their own personal failing. Most atheists find plenty of meaning in their life without a god or supernaturalism.

Hatuey said:

They can't find meaning in their existence by taking care of their kids. They can't find meaning in their existence by being good to their neighbors. They must be told that if they do these things, they will be rewarded. It is the reward of being a good person that they seek. They're not good for the sake of their own happiness, they are good for what they stand to gain at the end of their lives.

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It is true that religion is often "sold" by advertising that their god and beliefs offer preferred seating in a proposed afterlife. Buyer beware! Companies/religions/scam-artists often promise rewards and incentives to persuade their "mark" to buy what they are selling. The mantra by Ronald Reagan would apply: "trust but verify".

Since no afterlives or any other such promises by religions can be verified as true, I see no reason to accept their claims and thus no reason to "buy" what they are "selling".

It would appear there are many gullible and/or credulous people out there who are willing to "buy" what a religion/company/scam-artist is "selling" without first verifying the truth of their claims.

Hatuey said:

No. I am saying that they can't find purpose in the reality they live so they must A) create the purpose for that life(Heaven, Paradise etc) and B) build their lives around that purpose (going to church, being good neighbors, giving to charity etc). The 'pathetic, stupid losers' thing is your own addition.

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And I will repeat it as that's what you've described. People who cannot handle reality, especially when they have to invent make-believe nonsense or buy into someone else's make-believe nonsense, are pathetic, stupid losers. If one cannot come up with a rational, intellectual purpose for their lives that doesn't involve bowing down to imaginary friends in the sky, or cannot be a decent human being without such beliefs, why shouldn't we see them that way?

It's not that it gives them the lisence to make up as much nonsense as they want. People in this thread didn't make all that nonsense in the bible. They find meaning in it and build their lives around it.

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No, they just chose to believe that nonsense. I happen to hold people rationally accountable for their decisions. It doesn't matter what meaning they find, it matter what mind-poison they accept into their heads. Someone might find meaning in the writing of J.K. Rowling, that doesn't mean they are justified in believing in magic and Hogwarts.

Religion is a control mechanism. People are pious because they believe that the more pious they are, the greater the benefit. With centuries, this mechanism has become a culture. Christianity, Islam and every other religion are cultures that are passed down from generation to generation. It's pretty interesting because religion forces the human being to behave if it wants to reap the benefits promised by some force they can't seem to prove.

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I'll agree that religion is a control mechanism, I just question whether it's a positive one. It's the ultimate bait and switch, demanding that you act a certain way for a reward that you only supposedly get after you're dead and can't come back and tell anyone if you were scammed. However, the same people who believe in the "good" that supposedly comes from religion also tend to follow the bad. Homophobia, racism, hatred, violence, etc. are all end-results that can come from religion. When you open your mind to things that you have no good, rational reason to believe, you also open your mind to all sorts of mind-poisons and other irrational things to come flooding in. The same people who embrace gods embrace superstitions at a much higher level. Rejecting critical thinking in one area of your life lessens the chance that you will use it overall. When emotional comfort becomes the standard for belief, then anything that brings emotional comfort, no matter how absurd it may be, becomes acceptable.

That's what I object to.

Whovian said:

So, essentially... you're a better person than people who are religious... because you don't need religion?

Arrogant attitude.

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Funny, isn't that the kind of thing the religious say? We're better because we have God on our side?

It isn't about being better, it's about being more rational and being dedicated to what is *ACTUALLY* real, instead of just what makes you feel good.