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Social Security Fix

Your Identity and For/Against this SS Reform model


  • Total voters
    75
We seniors vote, and our servants, the Congress and president, had better get their act together and keep SS solvent. If they don't, they'll pay the price at election time.

Remove the cap.
Pay back what was "borrowed."

That alone should keep SS going for quite a while.
 
No. A) SS runs a multiplier for its benefit formula that runs ahead of inflation, and B) the reason current retirees will outlive their benefits is because we don't have the money to cash all the checks the Boomers wrote to themselves.

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Every few years the SS department sends me a paper copy of what I've paid in over the course of my working life. They put the actual amounts paid in with no multiplier. The benefits get the multiplier, yet when I hear that most seniors will outlive their benefits, I'm thinking that they use the actual amounts.
 
We seniors vote, and our servants, the Congress and president, had better get their act together and keep SS solvent. If they don't, they'll pay the price at election time.

Remove the cap.
Pay back what was "borrowed."

That alone should keep SS going for quite a while.

Sadly, actually,

1. It increases benefits, meaning that you are chasing your own tail.
2. It fails to close the gap.
3. It only locks more people more deeply into a failed system to provide financial security in retirement.

So, no. Tax Hikes On Others isn't going to save you. The political desire to do the mathematically impossible does not suddenly make it plausible. If you want to blame someone, blame yourselves, in 2005 and before, when you solidly shut down any attempts to reform the system and avoid this cliff.

d0gbreath said:
Every few years the SS department sends me a paper copy of what I've paid in over the course of my working life. They put the actual amounts paid in with no multiplier. The benefits get the multiplier, yet when I hear that most seniors will outlive their benefits, I'm thinking that they use the actual amounts.

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10070.pdf

INdex.jpg
 
Sadly, actually,

1. It increases benefits, meaning that you are chasing your own tail.
2. It fails to close the gap.
3. It only locks more people more deeply into a failed system to provide financial security in retirement.

So, no. Tax Hikes On Others isn't going to save you. The political desire to do the mathematically impossible does not suddenly make it plausible. If you want to blame someone, blame yourselves, in 2005 and before, when you solidly shut down any attempts to reform the system and avoid this cliff.



https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10070.pdf

View attachment 67208812

I'll be 62 in June 2017. I have already seen this form and understand how it works.

When someone says: "Most seniors will outlive their benefits", are they talking about the index factor amount, or are they talking about what a person has actually paid into SS? Because if it's the former, it's not possible to outlive something that has no end.
 
I'll be 62 in June 2017. I have already seen this form and understand how it works.

When someone says: "Most seniors will outlive their benefits", are they talking about the index factor amount, or are they talking about what a person has actually paid into SS? Because if it's the former, it's not possible to outlive something that has no end.

What you have paid in is irrelevant to whether or not you will outlive your benefit - what they are talking about is the fact that the program is currently scheduled to begin to fall apart before you are (statistically) likely to die. So, if you retire next year, you are statistically likely to die in 2037, but the program will begin to fall apart in the late 2020s / early 2030s, depending on (among other things, including GDP growth and interest rates) how much they continue to mingle OASI and SSDI, and Medicare performance. So you will be past the age at which you are able to easily re-order your affairs in order to work a few more years (if necessary).... and then the program will begin to drop out from underneath you.
 
I say we "grandfather" any current social security recipients, and simply end it in favor unemployment compensation simply for being unemployed. Why duplicate administrative overhead.
 
What you have paid in is irrelevant to whether or not you will outlive your benefit - what they are talking about is the fact that the program is currently scheduled to begin to fall apart before you are (statistically) likely to die. So, if you retire next year, you are statistically likely to die in 2037, but the program will begin to fall apart in the late 2020s / early 2030s, depending on (among other things, including GDP growth and interest rates) how much they continue to mingle OASI and SSDI, and Medicare performance. So you will be past the age at which you are able to easily re-order your affairs in order to work a few more years (if necessary).... and then the program will begin to drop out from underneath you.

So what they are really saying is that I will outlive the SS program.

No problem. Yahmon.
 
So what they are really saying is that I will outlive the SS program.

Yes. That's what it means when you are scheduled to outlive your benefits. Your benefits will not continue as long as you will.

No problem. Yahmon.

Cool Running reference?
 
Yes. That's what it means when you are scheduled to outlive your benefits. Your benefits will not continue as long as you will.



Cool Running reference?

Yep. I was in Montego Bay last week. Cool Running is their favorite movie.
 
Even that wouldn't come close to fixing SS. The trust fund deficit is $2t, while the unfunded liabilities are $17t.

What does "unfunded liabilities" even mean?
 
Yep. I was in Montego Bay last week. Cool Running is their favorite movie.

I ate at the Bobsled Cafe in Montego Bay once. It was horrible service but great food.
 
What does "unfunded liabilities" even mean?

It means that the system expects to pay benefits for which it will not generate cash - discounted back to the present. Not sure where the 17t comes from. The latest figure is closer to 35t.
 
I say we "grandfather" any current social security recipients, and simply end it in favor unemployment compensation simply for being unemployed. Why duplicate administrative overhead.

These are two different concepts. Old-age narrows the career choice over time to zero. Unemployment is caused by a variety of reasons, but it does not by itself limit the beneficiaries options. This is like merging the dept of transportation and the defense dept to save administrative overhead.
 
What does "unfunded liabilities" even mean?
It means we claim we are scheduled to pay out, but we don't have and won't have the money to pay it with.


It's like writing yourself a check for a billion dollars you don't have, and then blaming the bank when they don't cash it for you.

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It means we claim we are scheduled to pay out, but we don't have and won't have the money to pay it with.


It's like writing yourself a check for a billion dollars you don't have, and then blaming the bank when they don't cash it for you.

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Then we have $infinite unfunded liabilities !!!

OMFG !!!!
 
It means we claim we are scheduled to pay out, but we don't have and won't have the money to pay it with.


It's like writing yourself a check for a billion dollars you don't have, and then blaming the bank when they don't cash it for you.

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I guess we'll hafta raise the payroll tax,pay the debt, with interest, that we incurred huh?:2wave:
 
I guess we'll hafta raise the payroll tax,pay the debt, with interest, that we incurred huh?:2wave:
You can try, but all you are doing is chasing your own tail and making the system function worse.

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You can try, but all you are doing is chasing your own tail and making the system function worse.

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Why am I chasing my tail when I expect our government to pay the bill that they incur?Should we default on our bills?
 
Why am I chasing my tail when I expect our government to pay the bill that they incur?Should we default on our bills?
:shrug: it's not s bill. Fleming v Nestor established that.

And you are chasing your tail with that"solution" because A) you will not get the revenues you are expecting and B) to the extent that you do, you will drive benefits up, increasing cost.

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:shrug: it's not s bill. Fleming v Nestor established that.

And you are chasing your tail with that"solution" because A) you will not get the revenues you are expecting and B) to the extent that you do, you will drive benefits up, increasing cost.

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When we loan Our Government money out of our $2.7- trillion surplus we shouldn't expect payment?
 
When we loan Our Government money out of our $2.7- trillion surplus we shouldn't expect payment?
1. We didn't. That's like claiming that your savings account "loaned" money to your checking account.

2. We can change the payout formula at will, just as we can change the tax rate at will. We no more "owe" anyone a social security check than we "owe" them a tax rate reduction.
 
1. We didn't. That's like claiming that your savings account "loaned" money to your checking account.

2. We can change the payout formula at will, just as we can change the tax rate at will. We no more "owe" anyone a social security check than we "owe" them a tax rate reduction.

The Social Security trust fund is fully invested in U.S. treasury bonds.What would happen if Our Government didn't pay off those T-bills?
 
Here is my proposal:

Allow workers to opt into a partially privatized system, where of their 7.65% FICA expenditures, 5% goes into a private TSP-style account; and the Employers match follow the same. the remaining 2.65% (or, when you count the match, 5.3%) will go straight into SS, but it will be revenue for which SS will never see a liability. the cost for opting out is that part of your pay continues to go to pay for others, but the upside is that you get a combined total of 10% of your annual income going into a retirement account that belongs to you, and grows tax-free. Social Securities' revenues will instantly drop, but nowhere near as severely as their liabilities. To ensure solvency in the adjustment period (and to make it politically palatable); lift the cap. We can lift the cap on only the worker (and not the employer) if we want to encourage job-creation; or lift it on both if we need the revenue to ensure solvency, or if that's the only way to get the thing passed; here is room for compromise wiggling. Higher paid workers will see more of their money leave in the form of taxes, but those making less than $604,000 will get back even more in the form of ownership of personalized accounts (assuming the employer cap isn't lifted, and that's not figuring for the added benefit of those accounts growing tax-free), and so they will be willing to make the trade. Perhaps another compromise point would be to raise the cap to $604K. Poorer workers can either spend their lifetime building far more wealth than they ever would have seen under Social Security if they are younger, or keep the guaranteed program benefits if they are older.

ta-da! the American people and the Government are left better off.

Does the math really check out on this? You're letting 2/3rds or more of contributions cease while preserving... what percent of the currently promised benefits? Chile's privatization scheme didn't work that well because the government's assumptions about how people would invest turned out to have some inaccuracies, and didn't that plan require some pretty massive increase in public debt anyway, just to continue making good on the promises to date to phase out the old-entitled over time?

I think a grand bargain that includes some degree of benefit cuts to current and near-future beneficiaries is the only way the entire burden isn't (one way or another) flung upon distant future retirees only. I can't agree with anything that grants one generation a full degree of benefit from a broken program while the next generation gets the burden. I can't quite tell just yet how much of this is addressed by your proposal. May need to read it again (a few times).
 
Does the math really check out on this? You're letting 2/3rds or more of contributions cease while preserving... what percent of the currently promised benefits? Chile's privatization scheme didn't work that well because the government's assumptions about how people would invest turned out to have some inaccuracies, and didn't that plan require some pretty massive increase in public debt anyway, just to continue making good on the promises to date to phase out the old-entitled over time?

I think a grand bargain that includes some degree of benefit cuts to current and near-future beneficiaries is the only way the entire burden isn't (one way or another) flung upon distant future retirees only. I can't agree with anything that grants one generation a full degree of benefit from a broken program while the next generation gets the burden. I can't quite tell just yet how much of this is addressed by your proposal. May need to read it again (a few times).
If you will go back through, you will see that I laid out the math in detail, using the Social Security Administration's estimates, providing a year-by-year accounting.

The thread is kinda long, maybe searching for "Visbek" will help.


BLUF: we add more debt on the front end, the system paid out back quickly, and then this program becomes a cash cow for both the US populace and government.

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Last edited:
Does the math really check out on this? You're letting 2/3rds or more of contributions cease while preserving... what percent of the currently promised benefits?

Found It.

Got into an interesting discussion with Visbek, who made me run the numbers using the figuring from here to see what the net short term and long term effects on the deficit would be.

Final Post copied below:




OASI expenditures in 2015 were $750 Bn. That represents a populace that is 100% on the government for benefits, but that dies off at an average rate of 1/19th per year. Your source points out that means testing the 1% gives us an 8% savings, so we'll take off 8% of expenditures for $690 Bn as our starting point for expenditures before we figure out the effect of slowing the growth. That produces 37% growth, but it does so over 75 years in an expanding manner. So, 1-(.37/75), we'll take 0.5166% off each year, starting in 2017.

Revenue first bumps up when we pop the cap. According to your source, it increases from 12.9% of payroll to 15.3%, and increases from there to about 15.57 by 2040. We will average that to 15.43

So, to get an idea of revenue, take Social Security's deficit for 2015 - $45 bn, subtract it from 750 to get $705 Bn. That's how much we divide by 12.9 to figure out what a percentage of payroll is. Multiplying that number by 15.43 gives us $843.27 Bn. The trustees assume that Payroll will grow by about 1.7%. So we will project $843.27*.2 for the initial years revenues, and increase that number by 1.7% every year.

So, the point at which those lines cross and we start producing surpluses rather than deficits for the original populace is 2027-2028. By 2044, the surpluses produced from that point forward have paid off the debts accumulated during the start-up years, producing a net $183 Bn surplus:

View attachment 67192715


Then, however, we have to figure out the costs of the new retirees.

We reduce the growth in benefits and the cost of benefits by the same (1/37th, 8% for the top 1%) as we did the original retirees. We take each age cohort, assume that 90% of a birth year make it to social security retirement, and say that they cost (750bn/19/cohortsize)*(new retiree cohort size). Median income is applied as is an average monthly SS check of $1,224. When a cohort dies, they pay a 50% tax on their SS accounts before those accounts are rolled into the SS accounts of their heirs, and those monies are rolled into the cost to government to count against the deficits created by the first 19 cohorts whose accounts did not fully replace their Social Security benefit.

We see that on an annual basis, the program for the new retirees begins to run a surplus starting in 2035 (so, a couple of years after they used to tell us Social Security would be bankrupt, we are running surpluses instead), and the cumulative debts run up by the annual deficits of the early years are paid off, and we have a net $59 Bn surplus by 2041. So, interestingly, the costs of these cohorts are completely paid off slightly sooner than the older cohorts.

View attachment 67192727


However, these are two portions of the same system. We need to add together the annual deficits to get an idea of the annual cost, and add together the rolling total costs, to get an idea of the impact on the national debt. What we see when we do that is by 2029, the system is running an annual surplus, and by 2043, we have paid off the costs from the previous cohorts entirely, and are now returning hundreds of billions of dollars to the treasury. By 2050, Social Security has provided more than $3.8 Trillion in surpluses, and is funding other government programs to the tune of $560 Billion a year. By 2060 (which you mentioned), that number has climbed to just shy of an inflation-adjusted (all numbers here are) trillion dollars a year.

View attachment 67192728

:)
 
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