• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Does defense justify torture?

Does defense justify torture?


  • Total voters
    49
Morals and ethics may indeed sometimes not be very helpful when it comes to efficiently defending your country. But I don't think the conclusion can be to throw it overboard.

And as far as ethics go, there are a few things even small children get taught quickly that are not in order: For example, when a four year old is caught doing something bad, parents will soon teach him that "but he over there did worse!" is not an excuse. That's pretty basic. Another thing is that "the ends don't justify the means", because in theory, even the worst deeds can be justified with that reasoning, and morality and ethics become completely void. A little tricky, of course, it becomes when you have to weight one bad consequence against the bad consequences of breaking ethical standards when stopping it.

MSgt, I understand where you are coming from, but I don't agree with you at all. Your points make a lot of sense, from a pragmatic point of view. But they are completely lacking any kind of ethical consideration or morals. There is just moral relativism and/or nihilism. You don't even bother anymore to be one of the good guys. It doesn't matter for you anymore what your country stands for or if it's good, it's all about defense, us or them, and self-defense is more existential than ethics. That's fine, I can respect that. But you have to see that ethics do play a role for most people in this world, and most of us want to belong to the good guys, even most of those who support torture under certain circumstances.
 
Last edited:
As far as Im concerned already monitoring all internet traffic and all cellular conversations through filters should be sufficient. The surveillance state and intelligence work alone should be more than enough to safeguard citizens without expenses to freedoms. These moralistic dilemmas shouldn't be in the first place.
 
I see two independent nations here. We have army in many nations, are we occupying them all?



The problem is that western critics allow Islamic radicals to get away with their accusations and statements. By way of, they unwittingly choose enemy allegiance. According to the Muslim Brotherhood (and the countless radicals, extremists, and terrorists) Muslim Land is all the land conquered by the Rashidun Caliphate and the land conquered later under the Umayyad Caliphate. This territory extends into southern Europe as far as Spain. The joke today is that Afghanistan and Iraq are repercussions of this civilization's most loudest radical. Before 9-11 our "occupation" was merely a base in Saudi Arabia and one in Kuwait, which was at the invite of their governments.

Of course, murdering Danish directors and issuing handy dandy fatwas towards Western authors for expressing themselves against Islam over the last few decades, is all the excuses many of them need, isn't it?

No matter what, there's always an excuse. And as they continue to provoke us they will attain more excuses. Just like they did after 9-11. Help them fix the region and we solve our problems.
 
I never said such a thing, this does not negate the military involvement of the west in the middle east. Do you think we'd have the current situation in Iran without our involvement in the prior government?

Probably not as bad. But let's be honest. The Shah was never the brute critics want him to be and even the Iranian elite knew they made a mistake with Khomeini. America has had nothing to do with their government since 1979. That's over three decades that Iranians have had to decide their own destinies. What have they done except blame? After steadily moving towards more democracy, the religious fanatics of the nation ensure a Khoimieni disciple gets elected and drives them backwards. But Iran is a Shia nation. One that no Sunni nation cares about in regards to equality or as a "victim."

The Middle East is vast and mostly of Sunni persuasion. It's the Sunni that make up Al-Queda...not the Shia inside and outside of Iran. There resentments are solely focused on hating Isreal (more Khomeini hold over) and not on international terrorism. Our problems are Sunni Arabs throughout the Arab region.
 
Last edited:
I never said such a thing,

I didn't imply that you did, I just wanted to know your opinion.

this does not negate the military involvement of the west in the middle east.

How come the Vietnamese, Japanese, Italiens, Germans, Spanish, British, etc that we have fought and/or beaten and occupied or taken territory from don't conduct terrorist activities against us?

Do you think we'd have the current situation in Iran without our involvement in the prior government?

Who knows... but does that justify the hatred? Chile, Cambodia and others seem to adjust just fine. Hell, we moulded the Japanese Constitution and entire government after we bombed them to hell and then nuked them, and they emerged as one of the worlds greatest economic powers. They are one of the richest and most free people on the planet. Same can be said of the Germans.

The USA will leave the ME soon enough, and I bet that they will find another excuse to hate America and the West and find justifications to kill people. What of the terrorists threatening to kill French people for banning clothing? That is justified I bet, do you back that decision? I mean, the French are making a law in their own country, but somehow that concerns OBL and the terrorists in various countries... hypocritical losers, they are.
 
MSgt, I understand where you are coming from, but I don't agree with you at all. Your points make a lot of sense, from a pragmatic point of view. But they are completely lacking any kind of ethical consideration or morals.

Unfortunately, we live in a pragmatic world where ethical and moral consideration is often enough a luxury. How much ethical and moral standard was shoved aside during World War II? The Cold War? But today, we pretend to belong to a world that doesn't exist? That we have learned how to defeat our enemies with manners somewhere between the Berlin Wall coming down and 9-11? This is too often the cry of the classroom veteran who knows nothing about the world he judges and assumes to be above of. War is war. And this is a world where even atomic bombs have been forgiven for the greater good. If a few get waterboarded while constrained to specific rules and guidelines (I'm sure you can think of the true examples of others who had no rules or constraint in their interrogations) for the greater good, then so be it.

And no one has yet to deliver a number of who or where this supposed mass torture by American hands has occurred. This conversation is based on the rumors. Rumors that were ignited and feuled by the Democratic Party who absolutely ignore the issue today.
 
Last edited:
No it's not... if it were treason alot of people would've been whisked away into camps for isolation.
I'm no traitor this is a free society.
That's ripe coming from a kiwi.
What kindof Bodhi are you?

How come the Vietnamese, Japanese, Italiens, Germans, Spanish, British, etc that we have fought and/or beaten and occupied or taken territory from don't conduct terrorist activities against us?

Excellent question grasshopper,
None of them have had to engage us in assymetric warfare to the degree that say, palestine fights Israel.

Hell, we moulded the Japanese Constitution and entire government after we bombed them to hell and then nuked them, and they emerged as one of the worlds greatest economic powers. They are one of the richest and most free people on the planet. Same can be said of the Germans.

They were some of the worlds greatest economic powers before, their economic strength benefitted us in trade, don't think it was out of some great amount of benevolence that we did this.

The USA will leave the ME soon enough, and I bet that they will find another excuse to hate America and the West and find justifications to kill people.

You're knowledge of human affairs is limited, spunky one.

What of the terrorists threatening to kill French people for banning clothing?

You mean banning what they deem to be a sign of their religion through fear and misunderstanding? Hell why do they want to kill us, we only showed them we're wiling to burn their holy books despite the fact they are more judaic than christianity. :roll:

hypocritical losers, they are.

Fighting a losing battle they are... but that is the nature of the battlefield god has bestowed upon earth.

Also... I sense a little of the dark side in you.
 
Tee hee ur silly :kitty:

Well, add two plus two and come up with four.

Islamic radicals have made their impractical demands and justified their behaviors on rediculous excuses and deceits. If one in the west is willing to use their excuses and deceits as reasons or as ways to make us one big happy family, then what do you call it?

And you have yet to offer some substance to this mass American torture program and the legion of Muslim victims.
 
Isn't it weird how most of them support their government?

I read, and will try to find, that 70% of Iranians are under 30 years of age and very pro-western...
It is a small and fanatical religious element that has the power and will not give it up.
 
I read, and will try to find, that 70% of Iranians are under 30 years of age and very pro-western...
It is a small and fanatical religious element that has the power and will not give it up.

Go ahead, man. I'd be glad to see what you find.
 
I'm no traitor this is a free society.

I don't think he was calling you a traitor. But there is such a thing as unwitting support. Stockholm Syndrom is when victims sympthaize with their captors. What do you think happens when people are blasted with sympathetic propaganda? The television was full of commentators who were willing to betray anything and everything to either **** on America or to **** on the other political Party. The Internet is full of morons who know nothing about this region, yet feel it necessary to spew their opinions and protests about anything that Bush touched. Today, these same people are absolutely quiet about the "old" topics or searching for more excuses to legitimize their protests under a President they are supposed to support. In the mean time and along the way, the protestors criticism became more and more in line with Islamic excuses for bad behavior.

You, yourself, are more than willing to keep dragging America's torture machine through the mud without any real knowledge or evidence of more than a few (and you haven't even produced that). Al-Queda mouthpieces in the Middle East use the so called American torture "program" to legitmize further hatreds. Aside from accusations of the released who run back intotheir arms, they too have no clue or any evidence of "torture" anywhere near the scale thewy preach. With you willing to voice along side them, what do you call it? This is you offering unwitting support for their agenda.
 
Last edited:
Al-Queda mouthpieces in the Middle East use the so called American torture "program" to legitmize further hatreds.

Pretty legit ****, why don't people do something about it instead of serving them the strongest argument to explodinate our society they could ever wish to get their hands on.

With you willing to voice along side them, what do you call it? This is you offering unwitting support for their agenda.

LMFAO I have to choose between blind fascists or mad terrorists? I choose to issue support for neither, Thanks.
 
Iran... according to the more comprehensive polling. I've posted it several times on the forums.

Analysis of Multiple Polls Finds Little Evidence Iranian Public Sees Government as Illegitimate - World Public Opinion

It has files that you can use to analyse the raw data, unfortunately the software is very expensive and without access to a statistics or political science lab you wont be able to view it.

You really should read beyond the Internet. Seeing their government as legitimate is not the same as agreeing with it. How many Americans agreed that Bush's election was legitimate but absolutely hated his administration? Over 70 percent of the country is under the age of 30 years old. Are you really willing to believe that after a decade of access to Western fashion, music, and cinema that they were and are supportive of turning back the clock to Khomoeni?

Vali Nasr (and many other Iranians authors) is a good source if you wish to understand this society. The Internet and a few polls just won't do it.
 
You dont know what you're talking about. The data in there is gold. Delicious intellectual gold.
 
Pretty legit ****, why don't people do something about it instead of serving them the strongest argument to explodinate our society they could ever wish to get their hands on.

GOOD GOD! You are doing it right now. Without any credible list of "victims" you are willing to offer legitmization towards Islamic radicals who gripe also simply because you want it to be true. Who has been tortured and where? Can you produce anything at all other than exaggeration? It should be easy enough.


LMFAO I have to choose between blind fascists or mad terrorists? I choose to issue support for neither, Thanks.

Again...accusations without substance. Now Washington and the Pentagon are full of fascists. You support the enemy who also declares the same...without any substance. How old are you? I'm not seeking to insult, I'm just curious. Are you a college kid?
 
You dont know what you're talking about. The data in there is gold. Delicious intellectual gold.

Very well. You keep avoiding the points in order to cling to your errors and assumptions. It's like talking to a brick wall. Enjoy your Internet wisdom.
 
Last edited:
Your going crazy or something. Done with you lol. I could cut and paste your own posts from above and just spank you but I gotta study for International political economy so I can transcend levels of knowledge and pwnzernate.

And I was drunk this whole thread. XD
 
Your going crazy or something. Done with you lol. I could cut and paste your own posts from above and just spank you but I gotta study for International political economy so I can transcend levels of knowledge and pwnzernate.

And I was drunk this whole thread. XD

You will one day find that the world is greater and bigger than the campus text book and that harsh truths often force imperfect behavior. There is no need to blame alcohol for your inability to maintain good conversation and your inability to transcend sophomoric arguments and accusations.
 
Last edited:
Hah you said sophomoric... anyways, I'm glad you can leave the thread with a 'face up my own ass so far I think Im winning' attitude. I should drink and post more often it def. puts the fire in me.
 
Back
Top Bottom