Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

haymarket said:

Good post Orion. I notice you said this



I would go even further. It would require a sea change in the way human beings operate on their own and how they relate to each other. It would require a change to basic human nature. Everyone must be changed into being smart, being capable, being talented, being aware of everything around them, being self reliant for almost everything, and being able to take care of themselves in almost every choice they have to make regardless of the information available. In short, they would have to stop being the human beings that we are and become something else entirely.

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Nonsense.


Drop yourself in the middle of the chama forest with 5 of your closest friends and you will naturally revert to a "libertarian society".


furthermore, you argued before that the libertarian society of our founding fathers was due to population and a farmland society. So are you changing your story now to this argument, or are you trying to suggest they weren't human? :roll:

If 1776 was actually a libertarian society ... and I am not saying it was or was not..... maybe the Rev has an idea there

Good point. and if we ever get back to the exact same conditions, we might give it a try again.

Let see now, a tiny nation of four million people. Pretty much isolated from most of the world. Most of the nation isolated from most of the rest of the nation. An agrarian system where an educated population was not necessary for most daily functions. Pre industrialization with the massive centralization of wealth and power that went along with it.

Yes, if we ever return to that time and conditions, it might be something to look at.

haymarket said:

If 1776 was actually a libertarian society ... and I am not saying it was or was not..... maybe the Rev has an idea there

Good point. and if we ever get back to the exact same conditions, we might give it a try again.

Let see now, a tiny nation of four million people. Pretty much isolated from most of the world. Most of the nation isolated from most of the rest of the nation. An agrarian system where an educated population was not necessary for most daily functions. Pre industrialization with the massive centralization of wealth and power that went along with it.

Yes, if we ever return to that time and conditions, it might be something to look at.

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Now you're moving goal posts.

A question was asked and he gave an answer.
It is up to you to prove that it isn't a correct answer.

haymarket said:

If 1776 was actually a libertarian society ... and I am not saying it was or was not..... maybe the Rev has an idea there

Good point. and if we ever get back to the exact same conditions, we might give it a try again.

Let see now, a tiny nation of four million people. Pretty much isolated from most of the world. Most of the nation isolated from most of the rest of the nation. An agrarian system where an educated population was not necessary for most daily functions. Pre industrialization with the massive centralization of wealth and power that went along with it.

Yes, if we ever return to that time and conditions, it might be something to look at.

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So which is it? You keep changing your position. Once we lock that down, perhaps an intellectual discussion on your part can begin. You are conceding a libertarian society would work under certain conditions, you need to explain with evidence how it would not work in present conditions.

Please to explain.

Coronado said:

What in the hell gives you the idea that you know what people would have to do to adopt a libertarian governance if you don't even have the first clue of what libertarianism is or how a libertarian government would operate?

What a joke.

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Because libertarianism is a belief system adopted by those who are willing to accept axioms as self evident truisms despite all real world evidence to the contrary.

And Coronado - why are you so angry with me? Why can't you discuss these ideas calmly and without such ire?

haymarket said:

Because libertarianism is a belief system adopted by those who are willing to accept axioms as self evident truisms despite all real world evidence to the contrary.

And Coronado - why are you so angry with me? Why can't you discuss these ideas calmly and without such ire?

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Evidence? Need proof.

haymarket said:

Because libertarianism is a belief system adopted by those who are willing to accept axioms as self evident truisms despite all real world evidence to the contrary.

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Any evidence or is this your uninformed opinion?

haymarket said:

Because libertarianism is a belief system adopted by those who are willing to accept axioms as self evident truisms despite all real world evidence to the contrary.

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Useless declaration based upon your own personal prejudice and gross ignorance of the subject at hand.

haymarket said:

And Coronado - why are you so angry with me? Why can't you discuss these ideas calmly and without such ire?

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Asked and answered in a previous post you conveniently ignored.

ReverendHellh0und said:

So which is it? You keep changing your position. Once we lock that down, perhaps an intellectual discussion on your part can begin. You are conceding a libertarian society would work under certain conditions, you need to explain with evidence how it would not work in present conditions.

Please to explain.

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Not conceding anything. All I am saying is, that pure purposes of argument, let us assume for one minute that there were elements of a libertarian society in 1776, then if we ever return to those same conditions perhaps we may want to look at libertarianism. It is not an admission that 1776 WAS a libertarian system. Its a hard slap in the face saying "hey check it out dude - this ain't 1776 anymore" . Understand now? I was trying to be subtle with the earlier posts. I hope this clears it up.

haymarket said:

Not conceding anything. All I am saying is, that pure purposes of argument, let us assume for one minute that there were elements of a libertarian society in 1776, then if we ever return to those same conditions perhaps we may want to look at libertarianism. It is not an admission that 1776 WAS a libertarian system. Its a hard slap in the face saying "hey check it out dude - this ain't 1776 anymore" . Understand now? I was trying to be subtle with the earlier posts. I hope this clears it up.

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you are making, unsurprisingly a false correlation all while ignoring multiple requests for you to back up your nonsensical posts with evidence.

haymarket said:

Not conceding anything. All I am saying is, that pure purposes of argument, let us assume for one minute that there were elements of a libertarian society in 1776, then if we ever return to those same conditions perhaps we may want to look at libertarianism. It is not an admission that 1776 WAS a libertarian system. Its a hard slap in the face saying "hey check it out dude - this ain't 1776 anymore" . Understand now? I was trying to be subtle with the earlier posts. I hope this clears it up.

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You've managed to wrap a, thought terminating cliche and a bit of chronological snobbery in one quote. :doh

I am glad you brought this up Coronado. In another thread I asked the question that deals directly with your latest post. Why is it that so many misuse the word IGNORANT here? The actual meaning is that a person does not possess the knowledge or information necessary to understand a topic or issue. But when you and others use it is is employed as a mean spirited club against those who simply disagree with you.

In point of fact, I have read Locke and Hobbes and many other political philosophers as part of my college education majoring in political science. I have read THE ROAD TO SERFDOM and regularly read the columns and writings of Lew Rockwell and other living libertarians. For the last several years I have discussed these matters with countless libertarians/Libertarians. I keep up on this stuff.

What I believe is happening is that you find it frustrating and angering when somebody takes your self imposed willful belief system and rejects it totally and completely as just so much garbage. you then become angry that your belief system has been rejected. You do not want to accept that your belief system has been studied by those who disagree with you. You do not want to accept that your belief system is understood by those who disagree with you. You do not want to accept that your belief system has been found woefully wanting in so many areas and is simply not viable in the real world.

I would love to discuss these matters with you but i would appreciate being treated like an adult and not some wayward child that you are angry at.

So you lash out in anger at those who have rejected your belief system. This is easier than accepting that you have been heard, you have been understood and you have been completely and utterly found wanting. Perhaps your reaction is only human.

Harry Guerrilla said:

You've managed to wrap a, thought terminating cliche and a bit of chronological snobbery in one quote. :doh

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Well sometimes we all get lucky.

ReverendHellh0und said:

you are making, unsurprisingly a false correlation all while ignoring multiple requests for you to back up your nonsensical posts with evidence.

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I have no idea what that means or what you are asking for beyond what I have explained for you.

haymarket said:

I have no idea what that means or what you are asking for beyond what I have explained for you.

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That you have no idea, is apparently obvious. I mean you were asked twice to back up your claim by myself and another poster. You ignored it.

Be specific. What "claim' are you talking about? I have answered you. You did not like the answer. It did not please you. Perhaps you were playing a game of "let me trap him into saying what I want him to say"? Who knows. But you were answered.

haymarket said:

Be specific. What "claim' are you talking about? I have answered you. You did not like the answer. It did not please you. Perhaps you were playing a game of "let me trap him into saying what I want him to say"? Who knows. But you were answered.

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Where is your evidence for your claims. Reveiw the thread, if you still can't find it, I'll do your work for you.

"What claims" he says asking yet again... and again... and again.

haymarket said:

I am glad you brought this up Coronado. In another thread I asked the question that deals directly with your latest post. Why is it that so many misuse the word IGNORANT here? The actual meaning is that a person does not possess the knowledge or information necessary to understand a topic or issue. But when you and others use it is is employed as a mean spirited club against those who simply disagree with you.

In point of fact, I have read Locke and Hobbes and many other political philosophers as part of my college education majoring in political science. I have read THE ROAD TO SERFDOM and regularly read the columns and writings of Lew Rockwell and other living libertarians. For the last several years I have discussed these matters with countless libertarians/Libertarians. I keep up on this stuff.

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Ah, so you are prevaricating. Glad we got to the bottom of that.

And if you're trying to go the route of making this thread about me or engaging in some sort of education smack, I would advise against that.

haymarket said:

What I believe is happening is that you find it frustrating and angering when somebody takes your self imposed willful belief system and rejects it totally and completely as just so much garbage. you then become angry that your belief system has been rejected. You do not want to accept that your belief system has been studied by those who disagree with you. You do not want to accept that your belief system is understood by those who disagree with you. You do not want to accept that your belief system has been found woefully wanting in so many areas and is simply not viable in the real world.

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Unsurprisingly, what you believe in this arena is bull****.

haymarket said:

I would love to discuss these matters with you but i would appreciate being treated like an adult and not some wayward child that you are angry at.

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You came on this board with a chip on your shoulder and I knocked it off.

haymarket said:

So you lash out in anger at those who have rejected your belief system. This is easier than accepting that you have been heard, you have been understood and you have been completely and utterly found wanting. Perhaps your reaction is only human.

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Oh, you can do passive-aggressive too? Nice. I'm impressed.

Feel free to address any one of the on-topic points on this thread you have heretofore overlooked.

haymarket said:

Be specific. What "claim' are you talking about? I have answered you. You did not like the answer. It did not please you. Perhaps you were playing a game of "let me trap him into saying what I want him to say"? Who knows. But you were answered.

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Prevaricating or ignorance? :shrug:

haymarket said:

"What claims" he says asking yet again... and again... and again.

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Posts 179, 181, 182.


Stop playing games.

from Coronado

Unsurprisingly, what you believe in this arena is bull****.


You came on this board with a chip on your shoulder and I knocked it off.

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Am I to guess this is the macho man "mine is bigger than yours" challenge? If you knocked anything off it certainly was not noticed by me.

haymarket said:

from Coronado



Am I to guess this is the macho man "mine is bigger than yours" challenge? If you knocked anything off it certainly was not noticed by me.

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Prevaricating or ignorance? :shrug:

Address the on-topic questions asked you. Any day now.

Use your words rev - use your words. What is it that you want to know that I have not already answered in the repeated answers i have given to you? It looks to me that you already have your answers.

But again... Be clear - be concise - be straightforward - and above all please be civil.

I accept your concession haymarket that you have no evidence for your claims.