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Federation v Empire

In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

  • Total voters
    32
theangryamerican said:
"You're WRONG! The Federation will automatically see a new threat and uncharacteristically instantly order every single one of their ships to warp because they, in seconds, have determined an enemy's strategy, strengths and weaknesses and have decided this is the best way to counter them! They will also, while navigating at these excessive speeds easily avoid collisions with the enemy warships and each other. Oh, and all their planets and star bases will instantly go to warp too so you can't land invading forces on them. Duh!"


I've tried to explain it to them. We're wasting our collective breath, my friend.
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While I fully understand sarcasm, the part I bolded is, in point of fact, exactly what Federation starships do on a continual basis.

During warp flight, the Conn console continually updated long-range sensor data and makes automatic course corrections to adjust for minor variations in the density of the interstellar medium. (Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual)
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Such minor variations could be planets, stars, ships, etc.
 
Ikari said:
Fully armed and operational was in reference to the main Death Star cannon.
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doubtful or the emporer wouldn't have phrased it "fully armed and operational" if he was only referring to the cannon. if it was fully armed, it would've been redundant to also say "operational". if the cannon wasn't operational then it wasn't fully armed. the battlestation was fully armed..........AND operational

However, it still did not have functioning shields. Which is evident by the necessity to have shield generators on the planet of bastardized Wookies. The rebel alliance could not fly into the second death star to attack the core with that shield generator still up.
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exactly and nothing shown on screen indicates that the deathstar had or would have independent shield capability without the generator on the planet.
 
theangryamerican said:
There were no doors on the hangar bay...

...and they referenced opeing a magnetic field at the beginning of the quote, not physical doors, which incidentally is the same magnetic field the fighters had to pass through in order to attack.
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the same magnetic field that the fighters in EP4 penetrated so very easily
 
theangryamerican said:
This is wrong. Big ships don’t have enough firepower to bring down a Death Star, by fighters do? :
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big ships can't fly through the interior of the DS to hit the ridiculously unstable reactor, the fighters can :shrug:
 
Whovian said:
While I fully understand sarcasm, the part I bolded is, in point of fact, exactly what Federation starships do on a continual basis.



Such minor variations could be planets, stars, ships, etc.
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I understand that they can make "minor variations" but I'm referring to the logistics of coordinating simultaneous warp jumps with hundreds of Federation starships (I assume they have that many at least) moving on multiple attack vectors, executing hard turns through thousands of tightly grouped Imperial battle formations without dropping to sub-light at all and thereby exposing themselves to return fire. Could they do it it? Possibly. My argument was that since they have never demonstrated that tactic on a large scale under those circumstances before, they'd be unlikely to suddenly change their standard tactics of engagement in favor of something so risky without knowing a lot more about their opponents.

...and your source is from TNG, which Goobie has rejected as canon. ;)
 
theangryamerican said:
I understand that they can make "minor variations" but I'm referring to the logistics of coordinating simultaneous warp jumps with hundreds of Federation starships (I assume they have that many at least) moving on multiple attack vectors, executing hard turns through thousands of tightly grouped Imperial battle formations without dropping to sub-light at all and thereby exposing themselves to return fire. Could they do it it? Possibly. My argument was that since they have never demonstrated that tactic on a large scale under those circumstances before, they'd be unlikely to suddenly change their standard tactics of engagement in favor of something so risky without knowing a lot more about their opponents.

...and your source is from TNG, which Goobie has rejected as canon. ;)
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I just realized how epically cool a fight between the Empire and Federation would be.
 
OscarB63 said:
nothing shown on screen indicates that the deathstar had or would have independent shield capability without the generator on the planet.
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technically incorrect. Remember in ANH, when the fighters first approached the Death Star... all the vibrations and shaking? Remember the line 'A small one-man fighter should be able to penetrate the outer defense.'
 
theangryamerican said:
I understand that they can make "minor variations" but I'm referring to the logistics of coordinating simultaneous warp jumps with hundreds of Federation starships (I assume they have that many at least) moving on multiple attack vectors, executing hard turns through thousands of tightly grouped Imperial battle formations without dropping to sub-light at all and thereby exposing themselves to return fire. Could they do it it? Possibly. My argument was that since they have never demonstrated that tactic on a large scale under those circumstances before, they'd be unlikely to suddenly change their standard tactics of engagement in favor of something so risky without knowing a lot more about their opponents.

...and your source is from TNG, which Goobie has rejected as canon. ;)
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I do not disagree with anything you just said... and canon shmanon.
 
OscarB63 said:
the same magnetic field that the fighters in EP4 penetrated so very easily
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Right. As previously stated, the shield of the first DS was vulnerable to small fighters. No one is disputing this.

OscarB63 said:
big ships can't fly through the shields of the DS to hit the ridiculously unstable reactor, the fighters can :shrug:
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Fixed. Thank you. However, this was only on the first Death Star, it was supposedly corrected on the second Death Star, requiring a different tactic to defeat that time.
 
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theangryamerican said:
I understand that they can make "minor variations" but I'm referring to the logistics of coordinating simultaneous warp jumps with hundreds of Federation starships (I assume they have that many at least) moving on multiple attack vectors, executing hard turns through thousands of tightly grouped Imperial battle formations without dropping to sub-light at all and thereby exposing themselves to return fire. Could they do it it? Possibly. My argument was that since they have never demonstrated that tactic on a large scale under those circumstances before, they'd be unlikely to suddenly change their standard tactics of engagement in favor of something so risky without knowing a lot more about their opponents.

...and your source is from TNG, which Goobie has rejected as canon. ;)
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and by the same logic..the empire has never demonstrated the tactic of gathering thousands of Imperial ships into tightly grouped battle formations either.

as I have said over and over...you can't exclude an action/ability of the Federation on the grounds that it hasn't been demonstrated and then grant the Empire a tactic or ability that hasn't been demonstrated.
 
theangryamerican said:
Star Destroyers don't require a quirky Scottish mechanic to devise unconventional and effective last-minute solutions to dire problems and tweak their reactor output every few parsecs. ;)
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Nope, and that's one of their problems. It's why 1 A-wing can destroy an entire Star Destroyer. The problem with the SW technology is that there is no redundancy. Hit the critical spot and down it goes. Even the Enterprise could separate out and if you destroyed the bridge, the ship didn't A) Blow up B) Could still be controlled.
 
OscarB63 said:
and by the same logic..the empire has never demonstrated the tactic of gathering thousands of Imperial ships into tightly grouped battle formations either.
as I have said over and over...you can't exclude an action/ability of the Federation on the grounds that it hasn't been demonstrated and then grant the Empire a tactic or ability that hasn't been demonstrated.
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Except at the Battle of Hoth and the Battle of Endor... Remember those?

Tightly formed battle groups. The reason I said thousands was simply on the scale of the entire Imperial fleet against the entire Federation fleet. Let's not make this overtly complicated, eh?
 
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theangryamerican said:
Fixed. Thank you. However, this was only on the first Death Star, it was supposedly corrected on the second Death Star, requiring a different tactic to defeat that time.
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some different tactic.

DS1 shoot a torpedo down a tunnel and blow the reactor
DS2 fly a fighter or small ship down a tunnel and blow the reactor

all the Empire did was make the damn thing bigger so that the rebels could fly a ship into it instead of having to shoota torpedo into it. :shrug:
 
Whovian said:
While I fully understand sarcasm, the part I bolded is, in point of fact, exactly what Federation starships do on a continual basis.



Such minor variations could be planets, stars, ships, etc.
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I wouldn't exactly call a planet a 'minor variation in the density of the interstellar medium.
 
theangryamerican said:
Prove it, or your argument, at all levels, is laughable.
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I've already given examples of canon showing the ability of Fed ships to fight at FTL against bith FTL and sub-light targets, individually and in groups.
That's all the proof necessary, sparky.
:shrug:
 
theangryamerican said:
Except at the Battle of Hoth and the Battle of Endor... Remember those?

Tightly formed battle groups. The reason I said thousands was simply on the scale of the entire Imperial fleet against the entire Federation fleet. Let's not make this overtly complicated, eh?
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I remeber them, but I don't remember THOUSANDS of tight battle formations. at Hoth, the rebels were able to clear a path through using ONE surface based ion cannon. at Endor, I saw at most 100 or so ships. and they definitely weren't in anything resembling tight formations.
 
OscarB63 said:
on screen:
empire ships were taken out by asteroid/meteor impacts in Empire Strikes Back. The navigational deflectors on Federation vessels are capable of protecting against this.
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I do recall that at least one of those ships - the really big one - was rendered unconrtollable by a fighter crashing thru its shields and into its bridge.
Imagine what a salvo of photons could do...
 
The Mark said:
My take on the whole torpedo/exhaust port bit was that the torpedo only needed to enter the top of the shaft, not travel the whole length - that it would set off whatever was being exhausted from the port, and that would follow the shaft down to the reactor.

Another possibility is that the exhaust shaft was itself shielded in some way that would prevent the torpedo from hitting anything on the way down. I mean, after all, it was an exhaust port from a “hypermatter” reactor, or some such…one would assume that the exhaust would have some unknown properties…

Speaking of which, according to some analysis I read (it was linked in this thread somewhere), an anti-matter reacton would not provide enough power for the death star’s planet destruction shot – unless it used an amount of anti-matter equivalent in size to the death star itself – or some such.
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Whatever the mechanism -- it worked. 2 proton torpedoes blew up the DS.
 
Goobieman said:
I've already given examples of canon showing the ability of Fed ships to fight at FTL against bith FTL and sub-light targets, individually and in groups.
That's all the proof necessary, sparky.
:shrug:
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Nonsense, your proof of isolated incidents doesn't change the vast evidence to the contrary, not to mention that nothing you've referenced is evidence counter to what I'm saying.
 
Goobieman said:
I do recall that at least one of those ships - the really big one - was rendered unconrtollable by a fighter crashing thru its shields and into its bridge.
Imagine what a salvo of photons could do...
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Your memory is faulty, its shields had been destroyed by concentrated fire from the entire Rebel Fleet and the A-wing got lucky (or was the pilot unlucky? I'm not sure.) :mrgreen:
 
molten_dragon said:
They would have an opportunity to do so, but it seems doubtful that they would be successful. Disabling the main gun could be possible, but based on what we saw in SW, it seems like that isn't too easy. After all, if it was easier to just take out the main gun than destroy the station, the alliance would have done that.
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You mean in E4? IIRC, the alliance only had a small group of fighters and no capital ships in the system. Its not hard to imagine -them- not being able to take on the protection of the main gun. Fed starships are another matter.
In E6 the capital ships could not close with DS2 because it was protected by the ground-generated shield.

Keep in mind though that the alliance didn't know that the DS2 could target their ships with the superlaser. They made the assumption that they would need to use fighters without knowing it could do that. So that statement must have been based solely on their heavy ships inability to penetrate its shields.
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I dont recall any such assumption being voiced; I wonder what tis assumption would be based on.
And, recall, the DS2 didn't have shields at the time.

The feds can't ignore everything the imps send with it, unless they want their ships to get shot to hell by the support fleet.
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The Imperials can't shoot the FTL Fed ships.

Part of the reason it took so long to set up the shot in E4 was because they had to orbit the planet to get to the moon that was their target. That wouldn't be an issue with an attack on earth.
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Why? What's the difference? If they coud jump in "close to the planet", denoting an ability to jum in wherever and whenever, why did they have to orbit the planet to get the moon?
The scenes in E6 amd (especially) imply that the DS's main gun, while powerful, it very short ranged.
 
Goobieman said:
I do recall that at least one of those ships - the really big one - was rendered unconrtollable by a fighter crashing thru its shields and into its bridge.
Imagine what a salvo of photons could do...
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Actually, the shields had already been taken down. And the fighter hitting the bridge was essentially an accident (the fighter itself had been hit and was out of control). The bridge crew was even talking about evening out the shields to compensate at the time they were hit.
 
OscarB63 said:
doubtful or the emporer wouldn't have phrased it "fully armed and operational" if he was only referring to the cannon. if it was fully armed, it would've been redundant to also say "operational". if the cannon wasn't operational then it wasn't fully armed. the battlestation was fully armed..........AND operational
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No, the Emperor knew of the leaked information. It was a set up by the Empire to draw out the entire Rebel fleet. It's a trap. When he says that to Luke he's telling him that it was a trap, that the Death Star was fully armed and operational. Now those two things talk of two different abilities. Armed refers to the armaments on board. The Death Star was fully armed. It doesn't mean it could use it's main cannon, that's what the operational part was all about. Not only was the Death Star fully armed (I'm not sure what that means in terms of laser cannons...energy sources maybe?) but also that the offensive capabilities of the Death Star were fully operational. Meaning that being fully armed and operational meant they could fire at will. Which he then commands, and which is done, destroying one of the Rebel fleet's capital ships. The Rebels are all surprised by this because their information was that it was not operational at that point.

OscarB63 said:
exactly and nothing shown on screen indicates that the deathstar had or would have independent shield capability without the generator on the planet.
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The first Death Star had many shield generators, one would assume the 2nd one would too once it was complete
 
Goobieman said:
The Imperials can't shoot the FTL Fed ships.
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Hello, one trick pony. Care to address my argument against this any time soon? No, wait. I won't make you answer the hard questions yet. Just tell me what evidence you have that an ISD can't hit a target in warp.

Why? What's the difference? If they coud jump in "close to the planet", denoting an ability to jum in wherever and whenever, why did they have to orbit the planet to get the moon?
The scenes in E6 amd (especially) imply that the DS's main gun, while powerful, it very short ranged.
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They approached the planet from the far side. What should they have done? Jumped through the planet? :doh
 
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Goobieman said:
I dont recall any such assumption being voiced; I wonder what tis assumption would be based on.
And, recall, the DS2 didn't have shields at the time.
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as i recall, the rebels didn't know the Empire was expecting them and were surprised to find out that the shield was still up and they were being jammed. hence the frantic "pulling up" of all the ships on attack runs at the DS.
 
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