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Federation v Empire

In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

  • Total voters
    32
I just think, based solely on the visual evidence seen on film and TV (since I am not a big enough nerd to read all the fan fiction, novels, etc associated with either ST or SW) that the Federation would win. when not in hyperspace, the empire's ships appear big, slow and ponderous. the millenium falcon was a POS held together with luck, baling wire and wookie fur and it's shields still withstood several direct hits from a star destroyer. Some of the Empire's best troops were outwitted by a handful of rebels and a bunch of primitive teddy bears.
 
OscarB63 said:
Luke's shot was BS for SF anyway. no way in hell that torpedo could have entered the shaft, made a 90 degree turn downward and followed the tunnel all the way to the reactor without impacting on any surface and detonating prior to reaching the intended target unless it was somehow guided. completely and totally implausible.
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It WAS guided... by the Force... remember? That's why the previous attempt impaced on the surface.
 
OscarB63 said:
Luke's shot was BS for SF anyway. no way in hell that torpedo could have entered the shaft, made a 90 degree turn downward and followed the tunnel all the way to the reactor without impacting on any surface and detonating prior to reaching the intended target unless it was somehow guided. completely and totally implausible.
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So not only were the movies the only valid, acceptable source of info in the thread, but even that can’t be used now because the things you see on screen “can’t happen” in your expert opinion? You Trekkies are way overboard in your extrapolations and liberal interpretation of established events just to make a failed point.

Every time there’s a flaw in your argument the rules of the game change. This is like trying to play a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors with the guy that makes the stick of dynamite with his index finger. :2razz:

German guy said:
The Federation wins, of course. The good guys always win in the end.
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Touche, well played, Good Sir. :mrgreen:
 
theangryamerican said:
So not only were the movies the only valid, acceptable source of info in the thread, but even that can’t be used now because the things you see on screen “can’t happen” in your expert opinion? You Trekkies are way overboard in your extrapolations and liberal interpretation of established events just to make a failed point.

Every time there’s a flaw in your argument the rules of the game change. This is like trying to play a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors with the guy that makes the stick of dynamite with his index finger. :2razz:

German guy said:
The Federation wins, of course. The good guys always win in the end.
Click to expand...

Touche, well played, Good Sir. :mrgreen:
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But 'nice guys finish last', so the Empire would win :ninja:
 
Whovian said:
It WAS guided... by the Force... remember? That's why the previous attempt impaced on the surface.
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it was guided into the port by the force, not all the way down as evidenced by Luke's reaction/relaxation as soon as it entered the shaft. :shrug:
 
OscarB63 said:
it was guided into the port by the force, not all the way down as evidenced by Luke's reaction/relaxation as soon as it entered the shaft. :shrug:
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Yet there is very clear on-screen evidence that it struck it's target. The Death Star exploded...
 
theangryamerican said:
So not only were the movies the only valid, acceptable source of info in the thread, but even that can’t be used now because the things you see on screen “can’t happen” in your expert opinion? You Trekkies are way overboard in your extrapolations and liberal interpretation of established events just to make a failed point.

Every time there’s a flaw in your argument the rules of the game change. This is like trying to play a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors with the guy that makes the stick of dynamite with his index finger. :2razz:
Click to expand...


I'm not trying to change any rulz. and if the damn torpedo had that capability...why was it so hard for the freakin computer to hit the target? if Luke was guiding it with the force...why did he relax as soon as it entered the shaft? and FYI/FWIW, I have stated from the beginning that I thought only events that appeared on screen should be valid for these type discussions. There are all kinds of fantastic Federation abilities I could bring to this arguement, pulled directly from the ass of some SciFi writer, if the floor is open to any and all sources.
 
theangryamerican said:
Yet there is very clear on-screen evidence that it struck it's target. The Death Star exploded...
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just as there is very clear on screen evidence that the Death Star wasn't shielded. you can't have it both ways. lulz

and before you cry "the 2nd death star was shielded"...let me point out that the shield was generated from the nearby forest moon of Endor and not the DS itself. how is the Empire going to manage to pull an entire planet along with it to generate a shield for the DS?

or do you plan to argue that the Federation would allow the empire the time to enter SOL system and set up a shield generator on mars or venus so that the DS would be shielded during an attack against earth?
 
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theangryamerican said:
The reason the rebels were not confronted with a swarm of TIE fighters right away was due to the fact that Tarkin thought they were not a serious threat. Against an entire fleet, like the Federation, the Empire would be less likely to make that same misjudgment.
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Given that the Imperials cannot shoot at the Fed ships, its irrelevant.
 
OscarB63 said:
I'm not trying to change any rulz. and if the damn torpedo had that capability...why was it so hard for the freakin computer to hit the target? if Luke was guiding it with the force...why did he relax as soon as it entered the shaft?
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Regardless of how it worked, we have conclusive evidence it did. Case closed.

and FYI/FWIW, I have stated from the beginning that I thought only events that appeared on screen should be valid for these type discussions. There are all kinds of fantastic Federation abilities I could bring to this arguement, pulled directly from the ass of some SciFi writer, if the floor is open to any and all sources.
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This is initially exactly what I thought we were doing. I opened the floor wide and told the Trekkie populace to bring whatever they had against SW canon. Anything considered to be canon in any form and not directly refuted by other canon was fair game. Apparently I was wrong in that assumption...

Goobieman said:
Given that the Imperials cannot shoot at the Fed ships, its irrelevant.
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Is there a broken record playing in this thread?
 
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OscarB63 said:
I'm not trying to change any rulz. and if the damn torpedo had that capability...why was it so hard for the freakin computer to hit the target? if Luke was guiding it with the force...why did he relax as soon as it entered the shaft? and FYI/FWIW, I have stated from the beginning that I thought only events that appeared on screen should be valid for these type discussions. There are all kinds of fantastic Federation abilities I could bring to this arguement, pulled directly from the ass of some SciFi writer, if the floor is open to any and all sources.
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The E4 scene explaining the plan for the attack illustrates what happened.
The X-wing launched the torpedo in an parabolic arc, created by the forward velocity of the torpedo and the gravity of the DS. If done correctly, the torpedo will enough if its fowrd velocity to travel down the tube.

This is the same method many US aircraft use to deliver nuclear weapons.
 
theangryamerican said:
Is there a broken record playing in this thread?
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Yes.. its you, forgetting that Imperal ships cannot engage FTL ships.
Every time you forget, you'll be reminded.
 
OscarB63 said:
just as there is very clear on screen evidence that the Death Star wasn't shielded. you can't have it both ways. lulz

and before you cry "the 2nd death star was shielded"...let me point out that the shield was generated from the nearby forest moon of Endor and not the DS itself. how is the Empire going to manage to pull an entire planet along with it to generate a shield for the DS?

or do you plan to argue that the Federation would allow the empire the time to enter SOL system and set up a shield generator on mars or venus so that the DS would be shielded during an attack against earth?
Click to expand...

Cite your "conclusive evidence."

The second Death Star had shield generators as well but was using a planetary shield during construction, as it was not yet fully operational. :shrug:
 
Goobieman said:
Yes.. its you, forgetting that Imperal ships cannot engage FTL ships.
Every time you forget, you'll be reminded.
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Cite for me ONE episode where a major battle was fought by one side being in warp for the entirety of the battle in TOS and I'll concede your point. All on screen evidence shows the contrary. You've been called on this several times and refused to accept it.
 
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Goobieman said:
The E4 scene explaining the plan for the attack illustrates what happened.
The X-wing launched the torpedo in an parabolic arc, created by the forward velocity of the torpedo and the gravity of the DS. If done correctly, the torpedo will enough if its fowrd velocity to travel down the tube.

This is the same method many US aircraft use to deliver nuclear weapons.
Click to expand...

smoking crack dude. and BTW, FWIW, FYI, I did not bring this up as an arguement for/against the Empire for the purposes of this discussion. I just thought it happened to be a glaring hole in the story.

on screen, the torpedoes made a dramatic downward turn into the shaft. there is no way you can explain that using trajectories, the should have impacted against the back of the shaft. the only way that could have possibly happened is if instead of an exhaust port it was an intake port and the torpedoes were moving slowly and were sucked into the shaft. given the physical laws governing the SW universe, there is no way in hell that shot should have been effective. just sayin... :shrug:
 
OscarB63 said:
smoking crack dude. and BTW, FWIW, FYI, I did not bring this up as an arguement for/against the Empire for the purposes of this discussion. I just thought it happened to be a glaring hole in the story.

on screen, the torpedoes made a dramatic downward turn into the shaft. there is no way you can explain that using trajectories, the should have impacted against the back of the shaft. the only way that could have possibly happened is if instead of an exhaust port it was an intake port and the torpedoes were moving slowly and were sucked into the shaft. given the physical laws governing the SW universe, there is no way in hell that shot should have been effective. just sayin... :shrug:
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This is technically correct. However, Luke's torpedo was guided by the Force. It could have done a triple loop and still gone straight down the shaft.
 
theangryamerican said:
Cite for me ONE episode where a major battle was fought by one side being in warp for the entirety of the battle in TOS and I'll concede your point
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This is a false standard. That they can fire their weapons while at warp (ample evidence) and that they can fire at targets both at FTL and sub-light (again, ample evidence) while at warp is all that is necessary to show that ST ships can fight while moving FTL.

All on screen evidence shows the contrary.
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Aside from this being incorrect...
That they often drop to sub0light to fight proves nothing other than they often drop to sub-light to fight.
Thus, the point stands - your unwillingness to accept it notwithstanding.
 
theangryamerican said:
Cite your "conclusive evidence."

The second Death Star had shield generators as well but was using a planetary shield during construction, as it was not yet fully operational. :shrug:
Click to expand...


proof, I can't find anything that confirms the DS2 had independent shield generators.

I do recall the Emporer wanting Luke to witness the power of the FULLY OPERATIONAL death star. if it was fully functional and still needed the shield generated from Endor...logic dictates that it did NOT have it's own shield generators. :shrug:
 
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Whovian said:
This is technically correct. However, Luke's torpedo was guided by the Force. It could have done a triple loop and still gone straight down the shaft.
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I find my lack of faith disturbing :lamo

anyone else think the guy who designed the death star was a dumbass? come on, a shaft that leads directly from the reactor straight to the surface with no grills, filters, crossbeams, etc in it. massive design flaw. screen door on a submarine.
 
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Goobieman said:
This is a false standard. That they can fire their weapons while at warp (ample evidence) and that they can fire at targets both at FTL and sub-light (again, ample evidence) while at warp is all that is necessary to show that ST ships can fight while moving FTL.


Aside from this being incorrect...
That they often drop to sub0light to fight proves nothing other than they often drop to sub-light to fight.
Thus, the point stands - your unwillingness to accept it notwithstanding.
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Ridiculous premise. You want SW to stick solely to what is shown on screen, but want us to believe the Federation will suddenly, for no apparent reason change the way that they consistently engage enemies? Nevermind that your proposed method of fighting space battles is not witnessed at any point in ANY of the ST films or shows. Try again. :shrug:
 
theangryamerican said:
Ridiculous premise.
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Hardly. There are any number of perfectly good reasons for a fight to happen at sub-light. That they do sometimes fight at sub-light doesnt in any way mean they cannot fight FTL.

There is -ample- evidence that they can and do so fight FTL; the very fact that the ships inarguably deomostrate the ability to effectively fire their weapons at a myriad of targets while moving FTL proves all that needs to be proven in this regard.

Nevermind that your proposed method of fighting space battles is not witnessed at any point in ANY of the ST films or shows. Try again
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Sigh.
A FTL battle between Enterprise and a Klingon cruiser in Elaan of Troyius and the Enterprise figthing at FTL speeds in Balance of Terror illustrates that you're either lying or ignorant. You choose.
Either way, it also illustrates that I'm right.
:mrgreen:
 
Goobieman said:
Hardly. There are any number of perfectly good reasons for a fight to happen at sub-light. That they do sometimes fight at sub-light doesnt in any way mean they cannot fight FTL.

There is -ample- evidence that they can and do so fight FTL; the very fact that the ships inarguably deomostrate the ability to effectively fire their weapons at a myriad of targets while moving FTL proves all that needs to be proven in this regard.


Sigh.
A FTL battle between Enterprise and a Klingon cruiser in Elaan of Troyius and the Enterprise figthing at FTL speeds in Balance of Terror illustrates that you're either lying or ignorant. You choose.
Either way, it also illustrates that I'm right.
:mrgreen:
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If I recall correctly neither of those battles depicted the Federation ship at warp and the other stationary, negating your use of them as examples. Further, one ship against another single ship is not a major battle like I stated. Try again.

"Elaan of Troyius"[TOS], It was a Klingon warp-strafing the Enterprise, which further, didn't even manage to destroy them...

"Balance of Terror"[TOS]:
Both ships were at warp.

I'm neither lying nor ignorant, you're not giving an example of what I asked for, because it does not exist.
 
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theangryamerican said:
If I recall correctly all ships involved were travelling at warp during those fights...negating your use of them as examples.
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Um... you recall incorrectly -- the fighting was FTL.
These episodes -prove- that Kirk-Era ST ships can and do fight each other at FTL (Troyius), and that that can and do engage sub-light targets while fighting at FTL(Troyius, Balance).
Case closed.

Further, one ship against another single ship is not a major battle like I stated.
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Like -I- stated, this is a false standard.
BUT, since you seem to think this standard is somehow meaningful:
The Ultimate Computer:
Enterprise engages Lexington, Potemkin, Excalibur, and Hood at both FTL and sub-light speed.

Are you NOW ready to concede the point?
 
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Goobieman said:
Um...
They -prove- that Kirk-Era ST ships can and do fight each other at FTL (Troyius), and that that can and do engage sub-light targets while fighting at FTL(Troyius, Balance).
Case closed.


Like -I- stated, this is a false standard.
BUT, since you seem to think this standard is somehow meaningful:
The Ultimate Computer:
Enterprise engages Lexington, Potemkin, Excalibur, and Hood at both FTL and sub-light speed.

Are you NOW ready to concede the point?
Click to expand...

No, I edited my post before I read yours to be more precise.

None of your examples show a fleet action at warp, so you're still not getting it. I'm not trying to tell you that warp strafing is impossible. I'm telling you that the Federation has NO history of doing it in major battles, so there is no magical reason for them to do so suddenly when battling a new enemy like the Empire. It just plain does not stand to reason with anything seen on screen. Sorry.
 
theangryamerican said:
so there is no magical reason for them to do so suddenly when battling a new enemy like the Empire. .
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other than the fact that they are a military and militaries adapt their tactics to the situation in order to be more effective. The Federation has the capability to attack from warp, what makes you think they would not use that capability against an enemy that greatly out-numbered them and does not have that capability.

the point is that the capability to attack from warp has been demonstrated.

the federation never modulated shield/weapons harmonics until they faced the Borg...then "MAGICALLY" they did when battling a new enemy. therefore the federation has demonstrated the ability to adapt existing capabilities to new situations.
 
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