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Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?


  • Total voters
    49
I completely agree, and I don't know why I didn't include this-I usually do. I'm usually called some evil nationalist, though I support the label of strictly nationalism. I have no problems with the label :)

I suppose I was listening to the children above us running around screaming..at the same time I was thinking about responding to an article.... I like kids. The roommate, on the hand, not so much :p
 
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Exactly right. I would go further and say that our "historical mythology" is IMPORTANT to us, that it serves an actual purpose: it helps identify us as a people, as a culture and a nation.

Strip away all the myths, and you're stripping away a lot of the glue that binds us together. Reveal, and teach the children, all the faults and failings of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abe Lincoln, Chris Columbus, Ben Franklin, etc etc... and you deflate a lot of the positive mythos surrounding their nation and their history and culture. The ramifications of doing this are not to be underestimated. A people who feel no pride in their nation or their culture are a people without an anchor, easily blown away by the tides of history.

Yes, I realize I'm arguing in favor of puttying over some of the facts about historical figures for the sake of nationalism. It's the same reason why I say that throwing all traditions overboard simply because they're old is another way of making a society come unglued and disunified. People are held together by a certain quantity of shared values and shared mythos. If you don't believe me, ask a Marine Corps DI why they teach Marines about Chesty Puller, the halls of Montezuma and the Shores of Tripoli.

Without some degree of shared values and shared mythos, my vested intrest in caring what happens to some guy in NYC or LA becomes much more abstract and much less important to me.

Translation:

Promote Ignorance. America F**K YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Translation: Sometimes what is best is not the entire truth, or overlooking some aspects of it.

Believe me, the more you research people, the more you find their warts, and the more unsettling it can become-especially with enough time. You could make the choice to become horrified by it, or you could make the choice to be horrified by it and prop something else up, or you can figure out your own way to come to terms with it. I know many professors who throw out the possibility of finding a new set of cultural heroes, or what to look for. Nevertheless, they wouldn't necessarily demand that such and such be the set criteria.

History is a tough subject to deal with Hatuey. It is not so simple.
 
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Strip away all the myths, and you're stripping away a lot of the glue that binds us together.

If the "glue that binds us together" is lies, perhaps we have no business being "bound" in the first place.
 
But just about every industrialized nation was founded on the blood and sweat of either slaves, indigenous peoples, or peasants, so where could I go that would be different.

That's really my point. And it just isn't limited to industrialized nations, either. Every nation that exists has blood on its hands; every person living owes their entire existence to the blood on their ancestors' hands. That goes beyond our merest existence, as well. Every advantage, every luxury, that we enjoy came about because somebody else suffered and died for it. That's what society is, that's how it works, and that's what happens, time and time again, throughout all of human history.

You hate Christopher Colombus, you might as well hate everyone. Every dollar that's ever passed through someone else's pockets has been blood money.

That doesn't mean we should glorify the more reprehensible aspects of our heritage, though. Acknowledge, yes. Make amends for, possibly.

Why on Earth would we ever do that? And how would we even begin? Whole nations are dead. The only reason there's anyone left to make amends to is that we didn't kill them hard enough in the first place.
 
If the "glue that binds us together" is lies, perhaps we have no business being "bound" in the first place.

Except you have to wonder if the glue that binds us together is mostly good as well as ...mostly true. For Americans, I believe the mythology serves us well.
 
That's really my point. And it just isn't limited to industrialized nations, either. Every nation that exists has blood on its hands; every person living owes their entire existence to the blood on their ancestors' hands. That goes beyond our merest existence, as well. Every advantage, every luxury, that we enjoy came about because somebody else suffered and died for it. That's what society is, that's how it works, and that's what happens, time and time again, throughout all of human history.

You hate Christopher Colombus, you might as well hate everyone. Every dollar that's ever passed through someone else's pockets has been blood money.



Why on Earth would we ever do that? And how would we even begin? Whole nations are dead. The only reason there's anyone left to make amends to is that we didn't kill them hard enough in the first place.


I guess what I find offensive is that we try to sentimentalize this horror, turn it into an amusing cartoon, a pretty fairy tale.

If most of us can't stand to own it, can't we just ignore it?
 
Translation: Sometimes what is best is not the entire truth, or overlooking some aspects of it.

Really? In which cases? Maybe law cases? Maybe you'd prefer to never known who is responsible for murders. Your wife cheating on you? Maybe you'd prefer living in a house thinking that your wife is faithful to you. Your kid being raped? Maybe you'd prefer not knowing whether they have or haven't? Tell us when it's 'best' to not know the entire truth?

Believe me, the more you research people, the more you find their warts. You could make the choice to become horrified by it, or you could make the choice to be horrified by it and prop something else up, or you can figure out your own way to come to terms with it. I know many professors who throw out the possibility of finding a new set of cultural heroes, or what to look for. Nevertheless, they wouldn't necessarily demand that such and such be the set criteria.

None of that makes any sense. You talk about not wanting to know all the details about a person and then cite your professors. Ask one of those professors that you know which historical facts they would 'overlook' or better yet ignore when doing their research. Now ask them how long it would take before they got discredited by their peers for 'overlooking' such facts? No. It's always better to find out the truth.
 
That's really my point. And it just isn't limited to industrialized nations, either. Every nation that exists has blood on its hands; every person living owes their entire existence to the blood on their ancestors' hands. That goes beyond our merest existence, as well. Every advantage, every luxury, that we enjoy came about because somebody else suffered and died for it. That's what society is, that's how it works, and that's what happens, time and time again, throughout all of human history.

You hate Christopher Colombus, you might as well hate everyone. Every dollar that's ever passed through someone else's pockets has been blood money.



Why on Earth would we ever do that? And how would we even begin? Whole nations are dead. The only reason there's anyone left to make amends to is that we didn't kill them hard enough in the first place.


Short versions: nations are not founded by nice people who want what's best for everyone. Nations are founded by people willing to take risks and spill blood to carve a place for themselves and whoever they consider "their people" out of a world that is ruled by the aggressive use of force. Naturally, that means somebody is going to view those Founders as being rotten sumbeeches. :mrgreen:


Whoever got the shaft, probably. In our case, native American Indians, the Brits of that day, the French, and the Spanish & Mexicans. (1. near-genocide, 2. revolted and took their colony away, 3. took land from, 4. took land from.)
 
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Your wife cheating on you? Maybe you'd prefer living in a house thinking that your wife is faithful to you. Your kid being raped? Maybe you'd prefer not knowing whether they have or haven't?

Actually, a lot of people would probably agree with the above statements; if not openly, then secretly. They'd prefer not to know the truth about either of these things.

A lot of people are cowards, to whom maintaining the status quo is far more important than knowing the truth.
Uncomfortable truths are seldom welcome in comfortable lives.
 
It is interesting when some people apply today’s social standards/values to people in the past. IMO to judge someone you must look at what the social standards were for that time. So I voted that it was ok to have a Columbus Day. He was an important historical person in regards to the US.
 
Exactly right. I would go further and say that our "historical mythology" is IMPORTANT to us, that it serves an actual purpose: it helps identify us as a people, as a culture and a nation.

Strip away all the myths, and you're stripping away a lot of the glue that binds us together. Reveal, and teach the children, all the faults and failings of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abe Lincoln, Chris Columbus, Ben Franklin, etc., etc... and you deflate a lot of the positive mythos surrounding their nation and their history and culture. The ramifications of doing this are not to be underestimated. A people who feel no pride in their nation or their culture are a people without an anchor, easily blown away by the tides of history.

Yes, I realize I'm arguing in favor of puttying over some of the facts about historical figures for the sake of nationalism. It's the same reason why I say that throwing all traditions overboard simply because they're old is another way of making a society come unglued and disunified. People are held together by a certain quantity of shared values and shared mythos. If you don't believe me, ask a Marine Corps DI why they teach Marines about Chesty Puller, the halls of Montezuma and the Shores of Tripoli.

Without some degree of shared values and shared mythos, my vested interest in caring what happens to some guy in NYC or LA becomes much more abstract and much less important to me.
For myself, I've still somehow retained a level of national pride, despite my ever-increasing knowledge of how many negative aspects all (and I specifically use that term) famous people, leaders, etc., have.

My method is sort of "despite all that crap, look where we are NOW", or in other words, we have risen above and beyond some of our ancestors shortcomings.

That kind of thinking keeps me positive and hopeful as to the potential of the US (and, possibly, the world in general).

What disappoints and upsets me (If I think about it) is all the past accomplishments and experience that seemingly get tossed aside simply because they are…past.

In my mind, we can never truly move forward unless we fully learn from our past – and pass that knowledge on to our future.

So on the one hand, I can see how papering over the cracks (or, in a few cases, gaping holes) in US history (and world history, for that matter) may be more encouraging and positive, perhaps even increasing the national pride/psyche, it also means that people can’t draw on the lessons of history as easily to avoid the same mistakes.

Which, really, is the whole point of history, IMO.
 
Actually, a lot of people would probably agree with the above statements; if not openly, then secretly. They'd prefer not to know the truth about either of these things.

A lot of people are cowards, to whom maintaining the status quo is far more important than knowing the truth.
Uncomfortable truths are seldom welcome in comfortable lives.

How far would you be willing to take that?


Would a woman really want to know EVERY thought her husband has about everything? I can guarantee that some of those thoughts will be rather ugly. Likewise husband-wife.

Would someone really want to know that their husband fantasizes about the teenage girl across the street, even though he has no intention of ever acting on that fantasy? How many husbands would want to know that their wife fantasizes about one of his best buddies?

How many women would want to know that their husband has fantasized about strangling them blue? I can just about guarantee you that daydream has crossed his mind at least once, if you've been married more than a few years. Probably while wifey was nagging hubby to the edge of his endurance for the nth time.

Choosing to focus on the positive is something we do, consciously and unconsciously, in order to maintain relationships and not kill people. It isn't so different from what I'm talking about, which is namely not going out of your way to deconstruct the entire American mythos to the point that nobody feels proud to be an American.
 
"Although history may often seem to be-like the natural sciences-an international study, transcending racial and political frontiers, its interpretation remains more profoundly national, more stubbornly local, than many of us realize or perhaps trouble to keep in mind. We may imagine there here in England we are free from the prejudices and enthusiasms of other nations. Sometimes we think that our history is the impartial narrative, and we hardly believe that we are performing an act of interpretation at all. But however much we refine and elaborate, it is not clear that we reach-more than the English view of Louis XIV. And our best biography of Napoleon is only the supreme expression of what is really the English version of the man's career. We teach and write the kind of history which is appropriate to our organization, congenial to the intellectual climate of our part of the world. We can scarcely help it if this kind of history is at the same time the one most adapted to the preservation of the existing regime."

Pages later: " It is typical of the English, that, retaining what was a good in the past, but reconstructing it-reconstruing the past itself if necessary-they have clung to the monarchy, and have maintained it down to the present, while changing its import and robbing it of the power to do harm. It is typical of them that from their 17th-century revolution itself and from the very experiment of an interregnum, they learned that there was still a subtle utility in kingship and they determined to reconstitute their traditions again, lest they should throw away the good with the bad. In all this there is something more profound than a mere sentimental unwillingness to part with a piece of ancient pageantry-a mere disinclination to sacrifice the ornament of a royal court. Here we have a token of that alliance of Englishmen with their history which has prevented the uprooting of things that have been organic to the development of the country; which has enriched our institutions with echoes and overtones; and which has proved-against the presumption and recklessness of blind revolutionary overthrows-the happier form of co-operation with Providence."
-Herbert Butterfield The Englishman and His History, 1944.
 
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Most of our holidays that honor people, those people were racists, greedy, and murderers. Look at Lincoln and his war that caused over 600k dead that were civilians and soldiers alike. He hated non-whites and he was a lawyer for the railroads. His family got rich off of the transcontinental railroad.

Apparently, a modern day Confederate States of America appeals to you, "patriot", complete with "slavery" of a sorts.. It WAS NOT Lincoln's war.
 
Apparently, a modern day Confederate States of America appeals to you, "patriot", complete with "slavery" of a sorts.. It WAS NOT Lincoln's war.

Moderator's Warning:
You are putting words in Patriot's mouth and then using that strawman to insult him, attributing to him things that he has not advocated. Do not do this again.
 
It is interesting when some people apply today’s social standards/values to people in the past. IMO to judge someone you must look at what the social standards were for that time. So I voted that it was ok to have a Columbus Day. He was an important historical person in regards to the US.

So was Francisco Pizarro and the other conquistadors.
 
Yep! Lets celebrate Captain Cook day instead

After all Cook discovered both Australia AND New Zealand whereas Columbus did not even really discover America.

Australia got all the worst Nazis after WWII, you should have a holiday.
 
That's really my point. And it just isn't limited to industrialized nations, either. Every nation that exists has blood on its hands; every person living owes their entire existence to the blood on their ancestors' hands. That goes beyond our merest existence, as well. Every advantage, every luxury, that we enjoy came about because somebody else suffered and died for it. That's what society is, that's how it works, and that's what happens, time and time again, throughout all of human history.

You hate Christopher Colombus, you might as well hate everyone. Every dollar that's ever passed through someone else's pockets has been blood money.

I have always appreciated your realism Korimyr, but surely even you can appreciate that your views on the "nature" of human civilizations have been formed through an Amero-centric lens. All of the things you describe are the natures of your nation. Not all nations are warlike and there are those which live in relative peace. Your view presumes that the human consciousness does not evolve with time; that the way you see nationhood in modern day America is the way that all nations and cultures see it, past and present. We can draw conclusions about some basic human natures, sure, but that glosses over many efforts throughout the ages to change our ways. The fact that we often fall back on primitive impulses is clear, but only honing on that is precluding the fact that there are many people who want it to be better, and who want the world to be a better place. Every human evolution is slow and takes time, but the desire to change starts with a single idea, and the idea spreads.

The way the world is now, with its interconnectedness and complex interdependence -- it has NEVER been this way before in all of our known world history. The mentality of conquer or be conquered doesn't fully apply anymore. I know it does to many Americans, and that brings me back to my original point: the fact that you are American shapes your view on this. Your nation is warlike, it thrives on conflicts, and it creates many of them; the many "natures" you state are, in many ways, American apologism for state behaviour.

Christopher Columbus day may be a misguided tradition, but it's a carry-over from the era when most of the nations in power truly did think the way you are describing. It's not a eutopia now by any means but I don't see any point in maintaining a lie under the guise that it's the glue that holds nations together. It isn't. Nations remain in tact because people work out of mutual interest, and in case you haven't noticed, your nation has at least two potentially fatal problems right now, one of which is epidemic, non-sustainable selfishness.
 
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"Although history may often seem to be-like the natural sciences-an international study, transcending racial and political frontiers, its interpretation remains more profoundly national, more stubbornly local, than many of us realize or perhaps trouble to keep in mind. We may imagine there here in England we are free from the prejudices and enthusiasms of other nations. Sometimes we think that our history is the impartial narrative, and we hardly believe that we are performing an act of interpretation at all. But however much we refine and elaborate, it is not clear that we reach-more than the English view of Louis XIV. And our best biography of Napoleon is only the supreme expression of what is really the English version of the man's career. We teach and write the kind of history which is appropriate to our organization, congenial to the intellectual climate of our part of the world. We can scarcely help it if this kind of history is at the same time the one most adapted to the preservation of the existing regime."-Herbert Butterfield The Englishman and His History, 1944.

I think what we have here is a number of people who cannot see any point to celebrating a single isolated event and setting aside other topics that are not actually being celebrated.

To me it's like saying we have to stop celebrating the 4th of July because because fire hoses and dogs were later used against protesters in Birmingham, or because there were lynchings.

It's small minded goody two shoes attitude to me and diminishes the meaning of the initial focus on an event which is of no less Historical significance because of what followed.
 
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It is clear that most who have voted on this do not know what Columbus day celebrates.

And I do not mean this to insult anyone.

Columbus day is not about what happened on his 2nd trip when he went back with 17 ships and 1,300 Spanish military men, farmers, craftsmen, and clergy, in early November 1493 leading to a lot of really bad things, or even the next many years of slavery and death.

It's not even about his initial landing in 1492. It's 100% about him making the round trip which led to what came long after the slavery, death and destruction.

It is about that fact that it eventually brought to this continent the Greatest Experiment in Human History. That being our Democratic Republic based on the two most important Documents ever created by mere mortal Humans, the Declaration of Independence, and our Constitution.

History is replete with examples of explorers taking advantage of people that were seen at the time as, uncultured, or uncivilized. heathens.

Where would or whole history have been had this continent not been discovered for another 100 or even 50 years?

Fact is we are today the SUM of everything we have experienced every minute of our existence and the same is is true of the evolution of any Nation for good or bad, and I believe our Nations effect on the world and everyone on it has been for the better in the long run.

Imagine what the world would be like had Hitler not been stopped or the Expansionism of Japan, or the USSR not been held in check because of the Cold War.

Has there things we should never be proud of? Of course, but we need to look forward as we keep in mind the failures of the past and set out to only do better.

Just my view of the reality that is life.

American Indians made slaves of each other.
 
I really need to learn to write what I have to say in one go instead of editing all the time. I added an entire paragraph after that. lol
 
I really need to learn to write what I have to say in one go instead of editing all the time. I added an entire paragraph after that. lol

The preview function works great but I don't always use it :)
 
I really need to learn to write what I have to say in one go instead of editing all the time. I added an entire paragraph after that. lol
I do that all the time - usually just spelling or grammar corrections/modifications, but sometimes...

Thing is, while I usually proofread a post before posting it, sometimes another thought occurs after the fact.

So, really, I don’t think it’s possible to “write what I have to say in one go”.

Much like me adding this comment to the above post:
The preview function works great but I don't always use it :)
And, it slows things down a bit.
 
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I think it's sort of ridiculous that anyone would want to honor Columbus, someone that really has little to do with the United States itself but has merely been integrated into the popular national consciousness and distorted to such an extent that the story children are told has almost nothing to do with what actually happened. The reality is that him and his crew killed millions of natives through outright killing, disease, seizure of resources, sabotage, etc... Him and his crew raped and murdered women as well. His journey opened up the continent for subsequent bloodbaths by the other conquistadors that led to the destruction of entire populations.

Yes, he is an "important historical figure". That doesn't mean he should be honored with a holiday. Christ.
 
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