Is Islam evil/a religion of war?

kaya'08 said:

I'm shocked at the results of this poll...truly. WHY are you shocked? Forget the fact that those who view Islam as an evil religion is deeply mistaken to begin with,Obviously it is their personal opinion why should their opinion be any less accepted than yours? but thinking realistically, that couldn't be possible. Islam has 1.5 billion followers. If this religion truly was evil, and truly was dedicated to war and expansionism, we wouldn't be here right now.And yet we are here right now. :shrug:

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Certainly a significant percentage of adherents of other religions look upon Islam as an evil religion, what has Islam done or even attempted to do that would cause them to change their opinion?

jujuman13 said:

Certainly a significant percentage of adherents of other religions look upon Islam as an evil religion, what has Islam done or even attempted to do that would cause them to change their opinion?

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Islam doesn't have to do anything. You seem to think the majority are extremists when in fact the complete opposite is true. They work and live in the West, and contribute to society. A loud minority shouldn't shroud out the others. They live and work peacefully and look after there own, as do you. What do you want them to do? Top Islamic clerics gathered in Mardin and released a fatwa saying terrorism is a violation of Islamic principles. If they don't want to listen, it doesn't make Islam an evil religion, and nobody owes YOU an explanation.

jujuman13 said:

Certainly a significant percentage of adherents of other religions look upon Islam as an evil religion, what has Islam done or even attempted to do that would cause them to change their opinion?

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The point is that people looking upon Islam as evil are doing it out of ignorance and/or because that is what they have heard and now falsely believe. "Islam" doesn't have to do anything regarding the ignorance of others... that being said, after 911 many Muslims did come forward and denounce war and the acts as horrible, but the news barely glanced in their direction. My opinion, because peace loving Muslims doesn't sell.

Bodhisattva said:

The point is that people looking upon Islam as evil are doing it out of ignorance and/or because that is what they have heard and now falsely believe. "Islam" doesn't have to do anything regarding the ignorance of others... that being said, after 911 many Muslims did come forward and denounce war and the acts as horrible, but the news barely glanced in their direction. My opinion, because peace loving Muslims doesn't sell.

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No more so than the US if thats what your worried about.

Bodhisattva said:

Look, we are talking about the religion of Christianity, not just the teachings of Jesus. Christians follow the Bible, all of it. When I was going to church, the Pastor would refer to New and Old Testament. If you want to change your argument, that is fine, but making such a silly change in the debate is ridiculous and the only one looking foolish is you.

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The teachings of Jesus are the central defining element of Christianity. That the Roman Empire included the Old Testament in the Bible is quite meaningless in this respect. In respect to the religious condition of Christianity it is the teachings of Christ that are paramount. Certainly what happened in the Old Testament is completely irrelevant to how Christians should behave in the modern age. Things like "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" completely negate everything taught in the Old Testament and that is because in Christianity Christ is giving a new message or new testament that negates the old one.

Right… then debate it. Like the hatred debate and the punitive parenting argument that you had, your opinion means nothing.

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I have been debating it, indeed in all those cases I debated and provided proof substantiating my position. Here I have already reiterated several times that the first three Crusades were purely defensive wars. The first was a response to Muslim attacks on the Byzantines, the second a response to attacks on the Crusader states establish during the first, and the third was also of a similar nature. People have sought to abuse the Crusades in pursuance of an irreligious agenda, but the truth is from any perspective it was not about religion, but defending against hostile powers.

Further, if the Muslims conquered Jerusalem for religious reasons and the Christians invaded to get the city back for religious reasons, then the Crusades were religious.

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No doubt after the Crusades began certain targets were pursued out of religious significance, but even then it was much more about building a defense against the Muslim invaders. This also took place in the context of the Reconquista, a centuries-long campaign to recapture the Iberian peninsula from the Muslim Moorish invaders.

Of course it makes sense. Ancestry is irrelevant. The reason that Central and South America is Catholic is because the Spanish Catholics conquered the Americas and forced their religion on the natives.

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No doubt they did force their religion on the natives, but the fact most intermarried or most countries from those territories are of dominantly Spanish origin means it would have happened regardless. Many dominantly Muslim countries do not have a similar demographic story in that most are still dominantly descendants of the original inhabitants with little Arabic ancestry.

Well said… if the people are not evil or dedicated to war, then it isn’t a religion of war.

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The people who practice a religion do not define its tenets they define themselves. Muslims do not define Islam nor does Islam define Muslims. They are two separate and distinct things. Islam can be a religion of war even if Muslims are a people of peace.

Originally Posted by Kaya’08
No more so than the US if thats what your worried about.

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I don’t understand what you mean.

Demon of Light said:

The teachings of Jesus are the central defining element of Christianity. That the Roman Empire included the Old Testament in the Bible is quite meaningless in this respect. In respect to the religious condition of Christianity it is the teachings of Christ that are paramount. Certainly what happened in the Old Testament is completely irrelevant to how Christians should behave in the modern age. Things like "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" completely negate everything taught in the Old Testament and that is because in Christianity Christ is giving a new message or new testament that negates the old one.

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Ummm… sooooo, in your opinion, the Old Testament has nothing to do with Christianity; yet both the Old and New Testaments are taught in Christianity and the Bible represents the teachings of Christianity…?

Bible
the collection of sacred writings of the Christian religion, comprising the Old and New Testaments.

Bible | Define Bible at Dictionary.com

I have been debating it, indeed in all those cases I debated and provided proof substantiating my position. Here I have already reiterated several times that the first three Crusades were purely defensive wars. The first was a response to Muslim attacks on the Byzantines, the second a response to attacks on the Crusader states establish during the first, and the third was also of a similar nature. People have sought to abuse the Crusades in pursuance of an irreligious agenda, but the truth is from any perspective it was not about religion, but defending against hostile powers.

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No you didn’t. You simply said that I was basing my decision off of hatred in one and that I was a parent that used punitive parenting in the other. In both instances you just gave your opinion, and when called on it you either stopped debating or just repeated yourself. Sorry…

The defensive war stance is irrelevant since the Crusades were a religious war. Even the name Crusade denotes religion. I gave source material that specifically state that fact and you are… again, giving your opinion.

No doubt after the Crusades began certain targets were pursued out of religious significance, but even then it was much more about building a defense against the Muslim invaders. This also took place in the context of the Reconquista, a centuries-long campaign to recapture the Iberian peninsula from the Muslim Moorish invaders.

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The Crusades began with religious significance, as I already pointed out.

No doubt they did force their religion on the natives, but the fact most intermarried or most countries from those territories are of dominantly Spanish origin means it would have happened regardless. Many dominantly Muslim countries do not have a similar demographic story in that most are still dominantly descendants of the original inhabitants with little Arabic ancestry.

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The idea of intermarriage isn’t relevant to the fact that the Spanish imposed their religion on the Natives. How about giving us some source material?

The people who practice a religion do not define its tenets they define themselves. Muslims do not define Islam nor does Islam define Muslims. They are two separate and distinct things. Islam can be a religion of war even if Muslims are a people of peace.

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Of course they are two separate things… but at the same time they are the same in that the religion is what the people want it to be. The religion is not stagnant.

Bodhisattva said:

Ummm… sooooo, in your opinion, the Old Testament has nothing to do with Christianity; yet both the Old and New Testaments are taught in Christianity and the Bible represents the teachings of Christianity…?

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You are confusing a sect of Christianity with Christianity. It was the Roman Catholic Church that decided to include these other teachings and it just so happens most major sects emerged from that one. The Old Testament really just presents information that might be of interest, rather than something that should be taken to heart. Parts after the Gospels can be taken with as much validity as sermons by countless preachers in history. Jesus Christ is the central figure of Christianity and the final word on its tenets, just like Muhammad is for Muslims.

No you didn’t. You simply said that I was basing my decision off of hatred in one and that I was a parent that used punitive parenting in the other. In both instances you just gave your opinion, and when called on it you either stopped debating or just repeated yourself. Sorry…

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Actually, I just know a fruitless debate when I see one.

The defensive war stance is irrelevant since the Crusades were a religious war. Even the name Crusade denotes religion. I gave source material that specifically state that fact and you are… again, giving your opinion.

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There is nothing opinionated about what I am saying. I am describing to you the actual sequence of events that led to the Crusades and you apparently think that the dictionary is a more comprehensive source than the history books.

The Crusades began with religious significance, as I already pointed out.

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It was organized by the Vatican and draped in religion, but it was a response to Muslim aggression. The war was defensive in nature and not about attacking non-Christians to convert them.

The idea of intermarriage isn’t relevant to the fact that the Spanish imposed their religion on the Natives.

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Actually the point is that these are mostly descendants of Christians.

Of course they are two separate things… but at the same time they are the same in that the religion is what the people want it to be. The religion is not stagnant.

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The religion is not what the people want it to be and that is just an absurd concept. Muslims who believe in peace and tolerance are simply not fully practicing Muslims. How many Muslims actually pray towards Mecca five times a day? What you are saying is like declaring that if most Jews wanted to eat shellfish it means Judaism no longer forbids it. That just plain isn't how it works.

kaya'08 said:

Islam doesn't have to do anything. You seem to think the majority are extremists when in fact the complete opposite is true. They work and live in the West, and contribute to society. A loud minority shouldn't shroud out the others. They live and work peacefully and look after there own, as do you. What do you want them to do? Top Islamic clerics gathered in Mardin and released a fatwa saying terrorism is a violation of Islamic principles. If they don't want to listen, it doesn't make Islam an evil religion, and nobody owes YOU an explanation.

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Quote( it doesn't make Islam an evil religion,) I have not said that Islam is an evil religion, I have not even intimated this.
I have said that it's adherents are as the adherents are of any religion evil people, this is my opinion which i am entitled to have and broadcast.
Quote( and nobody owes YOU an explanation.) I have not asked for an explanation, but when I wanted one I received it as a quote direct from the Koran. I would wish that you watch and listen to this in it's entirety YouTube - Of Mosques and Men: Reflections on the Ground Zero Mosque

Demon of Light said:

Actually, I just know a fruitless debate when I see one.

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I don't think that you do, actually... I do though, and your continuing misinterpretations of historical context and your misrepresentation my parenting has left me disinterested in debating further... ultimately, I can't get past your denial of how badly you understand the concept of hatred. It's just kinda one of those WOW things.

jujuman13 said:

Quote( it doesn't make Islam an evil religion,) I have not said that Islam is an evil religion, I have not even intimated this.
I have said that it's adherents are as the adherents are of any religion evil people, this is my opinion which i am entitled to have and broadcast.
Quote( and nobody owes YOU an explanation.) I have not asked for an explanation, but when I wanted one I received it as a quote direct from the Koran. I would wish that you watch and listen to this in it's entirety YouTube - Of Mosques and Men: Reflections on the Ground Zero Mosque

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Could you just tell me instead i cba to watch the video.

“The pot calling the kettle black,” eh?

You cannot infer that the actions of a few are based on one common denominator. To label all Muslims as evil because of 911 would be the equivalent of labeling all Southern Whites based on slavery. The logic is flawed and dangerous!

Qatzel Ok said:

They fight to defend their oil resources from Western multinationals. Therefore, their religion must be evil?

I don't understand this way of rationalizing colonialism. Someone please explain what Mohamed has to do with the West destroying Iraqi and Afghan societies?

Also, there's a lot of fake history in this thread.

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Considering what you just wrote, you are absolutely as lost in history as others. Despite all the religious rhetoric saturated within Islamic fundamentalism, radicalism, and extremism, you dare pretend that they fight for oil? You dare pretend that Iraqi and Afghani society was on the path to prosperity before 9/11?

The world is full of non-clinical retards. All choose the extreme sides of the spectrum completely missing the point and the truth of matters.

By the way, the correct spelling for "Mohamed" is Muhammed, Muhammad, or Mohammed. Before assuming that you have a clue beyond your western orientalism or sense of simplistic school age wisdom, at least learn the basics.

Close
I ignore idiots like Graham
I am of the opinion that Islam has not done all they can to weed out the hateful extremists.
Convince me otherwise.
Sensitivity matters, in the Constitution or not, it matters.
NO to the Islamic building.

Laila said:

Shocked .... really?
I'm not. There are alot of stupid people on these forums. I'd just wish they had the guts to say what they think about Islam in a public poll. Wonder how many of those numbers would drop ....

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Don't blame the forums. This is probably a general truth as to how people feel everywhere. There are many things to blame for this. It's easy to blame the individual, but I don't accept that. The biggest culprit as to why "Islam is evil" is European and American politicians and the media.

Demon of Light said:

Funny, because I don't see any Muslims getting their panties in a bunch over depictions of Christ. Muhammad is clearly the central religious figure of Islam and it is his teachings on which Muslims have based their actions.

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Doesn't take away from the fact of what you are saying is BS.
Prophet Mohammed is important in Islam but don't act like he is the be-all and end all for Prophets and Islam.
It it Jesus who plays a bigger role in Islam and in Judgement day. Prophet Mohammed's only role was bringing the Qu'ran to the world.

MSgt said:

Don't blame the forums. This is probably a general truth as to how people feel everywhere. There are many things to blame for this. It's easy to blame the individual, but I don't accept that. The biggest culprit as to why "Islam is evil" is European and American politicians and the media.

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You don't think individuals should be held responsible for their views?

I'd love it if the OP asked MOD's to make the poll public or refresh. See how many would admit it then. It's easy when one is hiding being anonymity.

Laila said:

You don't think individuals should be held responsible for their views?

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It's just not that simple. People are busy in their own lives. They have families, bills to pay, work responsibilities, and soccer games to go to. This is why the U.S. works best as a Republic. It is our representative's jobs to study the laws and the issues and make informed decisions on our behalf. If they suck, they simply get replaced every 2 years.

How is the average person supposed to understand Islam? Most simply dismiss it and choose to believe that "no religion is evil" or that "all religion is evil" or that "only Islam is evil." It just plain stupididty. The fact is that there is truth to Islam having a much harder uphill battle than Christianity did and there is truth that Islam is not inherently evil. But do people actually care to understand these things? Hell no. And, frankly, I'm tired of talking about it to the brick walls here.

But while we are at it, what about the responsibility of the individual Muslim? Aside from the very large voice of anger everytime their culture clashes with a western culture or the very large voice of the extremist who claim to be Islamic, where are the actual defenders of Islam? Our politicians and media make their voices unimportant. I believe in winning wars. But Islamic extremism has proven us pathetic on the media front.

Laila said:

I'd love it if the OP asked MOD's to make the poll public or refresh. See how many would admit it then. It's easy when one is hiding being anonymity.

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The thread creator can do it. But MODs have to hold to the intentions of the creator.

Laila said:

Doesn't take away from the fact of what you are saying is BS.
Prophet Mohammed is important in Islam but don't act like he is the be-all and end all for Prophets and Islam.
It it Jesus who plays a bigger role in Islam and in Judgement day. Prophet Mohammed's only role was bringing the Qu'ran to the world.

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In other words his only role is to tell you what Jesus actually meant.

Its another collectivist cluster**** claptrap just like the rest of organized religion.

Demon of Light said:

In other words his only role is to tell you what Jesus actually meant.

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His role was to put the message of God in a different context and cultural vernacular.

Mull this over:

"The saviors of the world do not come to foster inimical doctrinal divisions; their teachings should not be used toward that end. It is something of a misnomer even to refer to the New Testament as the Christian Bible, for it does not belong exclusively to any one sect. Truth is meant for the blessing and upliftment of the entire human race. As the Christ Consciousness is universal, so does Jesus Christ belong to all."
- Paramahansa Yogananda

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Bodhisattva said:

Nope. It is a religion of peace that has some war-like elements to it that are being drastically hi-jacked by extreme fundamentalists, that's all.

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FALSE ! It is an ideology of war and genocide. This is inherent in the ideology itself (all through the Koran). The people you refer to as having hijacked it, have not done that at all. They are following the words of the Koran faithfully. It is the Koran, Islam itself that is the war element.

The terrorists didn't create the Koran. The Koran created the terrorists.


Koran 8:12
"Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

To characterize any religion (especially any Abrahamic religion) as a "religion of war" or a "religion of peace" is a gross oversimplification of reality.

StillBallin75 said:

To characterize any religion (especially any Abrahamic religion) as a "religion of war" or a "religion of peace" is a gross oversimplification of reality.

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I disagree. I think the Abrahamic faiths are uniformly, fundamentally, barbaric. My only criticism is that Islam is being unfairly singled out.

NGNM85 said:

I disagree. I think the Abrahamic faiths are uniformly, fundamentally, barbaric. My only criticism is that Islam is being unfairly singled out.

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What makes (or doesn't make) a religion "fundamentally warlike" or "peaceful?" Is a religion purely defined by its texts, its practitioners, or both?