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Who is more ADMIRABLE, the POLITICIAN or the BUSINESSMAN?

Who is more ADMIRABLE, the POLITICIAN or the BUSINESSMAN?


  • Total voters
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What about something like the TVA? That produced jobs and electricity that have overall been a huge public boon. Or the freeways we drive on. These things are tremendously helpful to everyone, and would likely not have happened without the government.

If the TVA and public transportation are your best examples, then you don't have much (in comparison to the private sector). The TVA's fiscal liability costs more than the most expensive floods in the valley, and the waterway they built is used primarily to ship coal to the TVA's electricity generating steam plants. The TVA model has also completely failed in the global south.

Please also don't forget how the roads started. The sole reason was to increase mobility for military personnel and equipment, and that is a good security reason. The traffic on these roads is stressful for all of us, and "free things" being used by everybody will cause delays no matter what. I'm not particularily against roads and buses, for these are fairly cheap governmental expenditures. I'm more concerned about the ridiculous rail idea, a financial money pit that will help to bankrupt the country.

I'm just criticizing your two suggestions. I feel I shouldn't have to go on about the economic wonders that occur when you let individuals drive their own lives.
 
Who is underpaid?
The American working man, of which I was one.
This statement sounds good, if not totally true. But, I have read that the wages and benefits have been stagnant for the past 30 years..
During this time, the Mexicans and Chinese have been playing "catch-up".
 
Where would the man work without the businessman to provide the job?

How would the businessman stay in business without the working man to do all the things that need to get done for the business to stay in operation?
 
The American working man, of which I was one.
This statement sounds good, if not totally true. But, I have read that the wages and benefits have been stagnant for the past 30 years..
During this time, the Mexicans and Chinese have been playing "catch-up".

If you were underpaid, why didn't you seek alternative employment that earned you more money?

If you did seek alternative employment that paid more, and you did not find it, that means the market was paying you what you were worth.

Ergo, you were not underpaid.
 
The American working man, of which I was one.
This statement sounds good, if not totally true. But, I have read that the wages and benefits have been stagnant for the past 30 years..
During this time, the Mexicans and Chinese have been playing "catch-up".

The best way to measure the economic growth of the middle class is to define the amount of time it takes for the average to obtain various materials. How many hours of labor did it take the average working man or woman to obtain a cell phone? Only the rich could afford them in the 1980s, and now even the most poorest of souls have service. How many poor souls had air-conditioning and heating in their homes just twenty years ago? How many had Internet? How many have connection today? How many hours of labor did it take to obtain an item is a far more pragmatic measuring system.

If you are underpaid, then go somewhere where the market demands your services. The market dictates prices, based on the conscious decisions of multi-billions of people. If your labor is only worth so much, then get a new skill or go somewhere they'll pay you more. No one sulking in his or her own misery ever achieved success.
 
The best way to measure the economic growth of the middle class is to define the amount of time it takes for the average to obtain various materials. How many hours of labor did it take the average working man or woman to obtain a cell phone? Only the rich could afford them in the 1980s, and now even the most poorest of souls have service. How many poor souls had air-conditioning and heating in their homes just twenty years ago? How many had Internet? How many have connection today? How many hours of labor did it take to obtain an item is a far more pragmatic measuring system.

If you are underpaid, then go somewhere where the market demands your services. The market dictates prices, based on the conscious decisions of multi-billions of people. If your labor is only worth so much, then get a new skill or go somewhere they'll pay you more. No one sulking in his or her own misery ever achieved success.

If you're going to say that today's middle class is wealthier than the middle class of 10 years ago because today's middle class can afford cellphones while the middle class of 10 years ago couldn't, then you know much less about economics and industry than you let on.

The reason why the middle class of today can afford cellphones isn't because they are wealthier - it is because the costs of manufacturing cellphones has been reduced. This occurs naturally as industry finds efficiencies in manufacturing a single product.

The reason why the middle class can afford automobiles isn't because the middle class is wealthier than the middle class of the 1910's - it is because automobiles are now built on a robotic assembly line instead of each being handcrafted by several highly trained technicians, mechanics, and engineers.
 
If you were underpaid, why didn't you seek alternative employment that earned you more money?

If you did seek alternative employment that paid more, and you did not find it, that means the market was paying you what you were worth.

Ergo, you were not underpaid.

There were times when I was promised more money, for doing a better job than my coworkers, but they failed to deliver. I complained, told them I would be looking for another job within the company. They said they weren't worried, that kind of thing takes time. So I found another job in the next week, and was gone the week after. They missed me every time the more complicated instruments needed repair, I know, because the coworkers called me and asked for help. I helped a few times then got amnesia. Did that a few more times over the years, but the last time was a mistake. I left a job that, in hindsight, was the best job I ever had. The foreman was a scumbag, but the job was great, and coworkers were great as well. I moved to a job where the leads, the supervisor, and even the senior techs were almost all scumbags.
Look carefully before you leap, grasshopper...:2razz:
 
But really, who benefits the collective good of a society MORE? Who BUILDS America from the bottom up?

The small businessman/woman working in a free market are the most beneficial to our country.

I hate that collective good thing. It sounds like socialism and taking from the haves and giving to the have nots.
 
If you're going to say that today's middle class is wealthier than the middle class of 10 years ago because today's middle class can afford cellphones while the middle class of 10 years ago couldn't, then you know much less about economics and industry than you let on.

The reason why the middle class of today can afford cellphones isn't because they are wealthier - it is because the costs of manufacturing cellphones has been reduced. This occurs naturally as industry finds efficiencies in manufacturing a single product.

The reason why the middle class can afford automobiles isn't because the middle class is wealthier than the middle class of the 1910's - it is because automobiles are now built on a robotic assembly line instead of each being handcrafted by several highly trained technicians, mechanics, and engineers.

I don't understand why it is so unbelievable to measure the growth of middle class wealth based on the pricing system that directly affects the purchasing power of the middle class, and the innovating market factors. So, what way would you describe the middle class? Poor people don't have to suffer without air-conditioning and heating like they used to. Some even enjoy cable tv. How has the standard of living decreased, in any way, when the middle class are living better than kings did in the 17th century?
 
I don't understand why it is so unbelievable to measure the growth of middle class wealth based on the pricing system that directly affects the purchasing power of the middle class, and the innovating market factors. So, what way would you describe the middle class? Poor people don't have to suffer without air-conditioning and heating like they used to. Some even enjoy cable tv. How has the standard of living decreased, in any way, when the middle class are living better than kings did in the 17th century?

Your statements are a disfigurement of the truth. I am not saying that there has been a decrease of the standard of living. I'm saying that you shouldn't get industrial efficiencies that make products cheaper confused with a middle class and the poor who are wealthier. It is quite disingenuous to the facts and the issues that the middle class and poor have to face.
 
I'm just curious. Which do you admire MORE?

Terrible question. I can't admire some businesspeople and some politicians? I can't despise some businesspeople and some politicians?

This is yet another sign of the foolishness of the black-and-white thinking that is dragging our nation down.
 
Your statements are a disfigurement of the truth. I am not saying that there has been a decrease of the standard of living. I'm saying that you shouldn't get industrial efficiencies that make products cheaper confused with a middle class and the poor who are wealthier. It is quite disingenuous to the facts and the issues that the middle class and poor have to face.

But what is the point of discussing the diminishing wealth of the middle and working class if the actual standard of living as improved? Isn't it a distortion of the truth to reiterate the common tale of the wealthy getting wealthier at the poor's expense? People who say that aways take things for granted.
 
Terrible question. I can't admire some businesspeople and some politicians? I can't despise some businesspeople and some politicians?

This is yet another sign of the foolishness of the black-and-white thinking that is dragging our nation down.

Of course you can. But, do you have an occupation? Did your current position within that occupation develop out of a curiosity, and admiration, of that line of work?
 
I voted for "Businessman" because, in general, I would be more likely to admire a businessman than a politician.

But the question (and my response) is far too generalized to get any meaningful answer out of.

Ask a general and vague question, expect a general and vague answer - or for people to dream up multiple versions of your question and answer those.

Of course, that could have been the whole point....
 
Terrible question. I can't admire some businesspeople and some politicians? I can't despise some businesspeople and some politicians?

This is yet another sign of the foolishness of the black-and-white thinking that is dragging our nation down.

You can't simply infer that he meant in general?
 
Seeing as how some politicians and businessmen are essentially prostitutes, and others I wouldn't dare calling prostitutes for fear of insulting prostitutes the world over...


What Tucker said.
 
Way to state the obvious! Now, which occupation do you admire more?

I don't admire occupations. . . I admire people and their quality of work, values, ethics, efficiency, etc.

And in every occupation there can be good people/bad people . . . and so on.

If we were comparing one politician with one businessmen I'd have more to compare - but I wouldn't generalize that to cover *all* people of said occupation.
 
I don't admire occupations. . . I admire people and their quality of work, values, ethics, efficiency, etc.

And in every occupation there can be good people/bad people . . . and so on.

If we were comparing one politician with one businessmen I'd have more to compare - but I wouldn't generalize that to cover *all* people of said occupation.
^This^

I answered "businessman", because I considered it more likely that I would admire any random businessman over any random politician.

Probably a 60-70% probablity, I think.

In some cases, I would dislike both, in some I would like one or the other, and in some I would like both (least likely possiblity).
 
I don't admire occupations. . . I admire people and their quality of work, values, ethics, efficiency, etc.

And in every occupation there can be good people/bad people . . . and so on.

If we were comparing one politician with one businessmen I'd have more to compare - but I wouldn't generalize that to cover *all* people of said occupation.

It seems like everyone posting in this thread who despises the integrity of the question are unemployed and have never secured the job they admired as a kid. I've only recently discovered what I want to do with my life. My enthusiaism for archiving is also an admiration. A lot of young kids admire astronauts and hope to someday become one. I'm simply just asking between these two influential occupations, which would you prefer to admire? Perhaps it's too hypothetical and fantastic. If you had it to do over again, and you could either be a successful politician or a successful businessman, which would you choose?
 
I'd rather be a politician. I feel that position would best suit me to make the change i want to make. To preserve liberty, to fight to the common man, to be an advocate of the people.
 
It depends on what they do. The Businessman has a hell of a lot of more potential. A politician that sits on his hands is allowing the nation to stabilize. A businessman that does the same will be left to ruin.
 
both can be as good or as bad as the other, i would admire the one with the most integrity, honesty, courage and intelligence, unfortunately, the very nature of the political machine tends to forfeit the first three, not to say the individuals don't possess those traits, just that they're not encouraged.
 
It seems like everyone posting in this thread who despises the integrity of the question are unemployed and have never secured the job they admired as a kid. I've only recently discovered what I want to do with my life. My enthusiaism for archiving is also an admiration. A lot of young kids admire astronauts and hope to someday become one. I'm simply just asking between these two influential occupations, which would you prefer to admire? Perhaps it's too hypothetical and fantastic. If you had it to do over again, and you could either be a successful politician or a successful businessman, which would you choose?

Honey, you're asking the wrong person that type of question. . . I'm not the type to be able to choose a favored career choice based on various work preferences. . .I never contrived a fantasy-occupation nor can I ever make up my mind. Just 2 years ago I was deep into my schooling for being a Pharmacist.

I've considered various political careers as much as I've considered business careers - My career choice, I hope, will permit me to cross into both of those (Risk Management). Since I haven't worked in either field yet (I don't consider managing a store to be serious 'business' - that's just something that cross my lap) I don't know which one I prefer - They both have their appeals and disadvantages. Both are within my reach. Both are interesting.

I can't answer the question, I guess, because my view is the same.

My fantasy job as a kid, by the way, was to be a violinist - which I was for 13 years. When I was really little I wanted to 'be a violinist while riding on a horse' - LOL - later i found I was terrified of the notion. :) But my Dad thought it was adorable and even wrote a sermon about it.
 
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This is quite a strawman argument. Only, you're putting up the strawman and I'm bored enough to break it down. Here's an easy way to find out if you admire an occupation (I, of course, honor human beings before intangible occupations...but this thread is specifically about occupations):

Are you employed? Have you EVER, in your entire life, wished or fantasized about working in some particular field for a living ("What do you do for a living?" have is often a question about one's own occupation)? If the answer is yes to either one of these questions, then you have, in fact, admired certain occupational positions throughout your life. This wasn't meant to be as deep as, "Who has been your favorite human being(s) in life?" This is more like, "What career would you choose if you had these two choices?"

Of course, that argument fails because one doesn't typically choose or desire a particular occupation due to it being admirable. Instead they choose/desire it because they think it would be more enjoyable or more profitable. I wanted to be a stand-up comedian at one point.

On top of that, if there is a forced choice between two occupations, the deciding factor would not be the "admirability" of the two occupations.

So even though the answer is obviously "yes" to your two questions, the fact that you mis-attribute that affirmative response to some sort of "admirability" of the occupation is pure nonsense.

On top of that, this thread is NOT "specifically about occupations". it's specifically about the PEOPLE who work in certain occupations. i.e. Businessman vs. Politician.

This is obvious given the word choice of the question. If the question was "Which occupation is more admirable: Business or Politics"

Then it could be argued as having been about the occupations originally, but the question (and thread title) was "Who is more ADMIRABLE, the POLITICIAN or the BUSINESSMAN?"

As most people would agree, the word "Who" specifically relates to "what or which persons".

The terms "politician" and "businessman" refer to the people who hold specific occupations, but are often used colloquially to describe the occupation itself. Thus, the presence of the "Who" in the question and thread title clearly indicates that the idea being discussed is the individual people who are in these occupations, not the actual occupations.

Obviously,you are now moving the goal posts. This can be supported with eth evidence from an earlier response by you:

But how often does the profession shape the character of the person? Was Mother Theresa a saint because she was born a saint? Or did her profession shape the way she acted in society? Surely you can admire Obama for his countless large scale "reforms," none of which can happen to a simpleton with no occupation.

Here you also talk about the person's admnirability and attempt to use fallacy to justify the association of individual character traits with an occupation. You also present an "almost" argument in the form of rhetorical questions that implies said individual character trait is determined by the occupation.

However, such associations are erroneous because if the occupation did shape the character of the individual, we could have what actually occurs which is a range of different people in certain occupations who's particular character trait in question ranges from admirable to deplorable.

Using Mother Teresa as an example, her occupation was that of a Catholic Nun. It doesn't take much searching to find examples of Catholic nuns who are as despicable as Mother Teresa would be considered admirable. Just look into the Irish child abuse scandal and what happened in the orphanages.

Same occupation, totally different behaviors.

Thus, anyone who does not create idealized and imaginary archetypes for each occupation that they look at with the adoration of a small child cannot possibly answer the given question.

If you really wanted to know about the "admirability" of the occupations, then you did a piss-poor job of wording the question.

But let's assume that you hadn't done a piss-poor job of wording the question, and you actually asked about the occupations instead of the people, in such a case I would say "Neither is more admirable. Occupations are not particularly admirable"

This is because admirability is not a trait which should be applied to occupations, IMO.

Instead, only the character traits of the individual should be looked at.

For example, I used to be a construction worker and ran my own business. Now I'm a personal caregiver who takes care of a man with a brain injury. My own personal character hasn't changed with my occupation.

If I was admirable when I was a construction worker, then I am just admirable now. If I am admirable now, then I was just as admirable then. If I wasn't considered admirable then, then I shouldn't be considered admirable now. If I'm not considered admirable now, then I shouldn't have been considered admirable then.

Nothing about me as a person has changed because of my change in occupation. Now, I admit that for many people, the esteem in which my current occupation is held is typically higher than the esteem of my previous occupation (and possibly vice versa).

But I don't buy into these stereotypes.
 
If instead of using the term "politician" you had used "statesman" in your poll I think the result would have been different. Politicians and businessmen are a dime a dozen. A statesman only comes once in a generation, if that.
 
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