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Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good


  • Total voters
    47
I'm 50/50 on this one. Religion has done its share of tremendous harm. But the practice of religion can be a path to spiritual growth and a healthy spiritual life.

I think it's that vocal minority (like in politics) who give certain faiths a bad rap--the extremists of any faith tend to be violent and justify evil deeds with their book of choice.

Spiritual writings like the bible and the koran are meant to be metaphorical and allegorical not necessarily historical... That is why they can be easily twisted into meaning what ever a certain leader/teacher wants. For example, reading Revelations as prophecy is the equivalent of reading Stephen King or Edgar Allen Poe as non-fiction. That would screw up anybody's thinking.
 
Does your church house homeless people or spend 24 hours a day counseling suicidal people?

No, it provides religious services to its members.

Sort of like how a suicide counseling line provides counseling to its callers.

And sort of like how a homeless shelter provides shelter to the homeless.


Like I said, it's a good gig for someone who can find a gullible herd to support him/her.

Right, anyone who runs a church is just out looking for a gullible herd to support them. :roll:

Look, we get the point - you have issues with religion. It doesn't mean you need to take every available opportunity to demonize everyone who doesn't share your fervor. It doesn't reflect well on you and certainly doesn't do much to convince anyone of the validity of your position.
 
Human is what we are. That's what clergy have to deal with.

Psht. It's not that hard to figure out how to avoid treating people like crap. The clergy are the ones who've made it so complicated with their theological disputes.

Of course, if people focused on the simplicity of acting justly, loving tenderly, and walking humbly before the divine, most of the clergy would be out of a job. They have a vested self-interest in perpetuating the system.
 
Does your church house homeless people or spend 24 hours a day counseling suicidal people?

As far as pastoral work goes, it's a good gig for someone who can find a gullible herd to support him/her. Most of the pastors in my area, with a decent-sized congregation, make far more money than I do.

For the record: I'd have similar problems with a teen center whose building was only used 10% of the time.

At least with the church my family attends, a lot of the money DOES go to those things. A group of about 40 christians a day goes to another church to serve meals to about 300 poverty stricken people. And the operation is funded by churches in the area as well as other donations from charitable people.

Not to mention the money spent on the church is intended to bring in and support more members... not to "feed the ego" of the pastor. More members = more money donated.

The money also supports students in going to college, funding operations to feed the hungry in other countries, and sends members to locations all over the world to donate their time to help the needy (among other things).

Edit: PLUS the church is sometimes used to temporarily shelter the homeless.

Does this answer your question?
 
No, it provides religious services to its members.

You mean, like sitting in a pew on Sunday? I suspect if you actually looked at the work schedule of the average pastor, you'd be appalled at how little real work some of these people do.

Did you know that there are many denominations (like the Mormons) where the clergy are ALL unpaid? And yet, they manage to function and have a more highly developed welfare system for their members than most other denominations.

Right, anyone who runs a church is just out looking for a gullible herd to support them. :roll:

I think that they have a vested interest in maintaining the system that goes beyond altruistic.

ook, we get the point - you have issues with religion. It doesn't mean you need to take every available opportunity to demonize everyone who doesn't share your fervor. It doesn't reflect well on you and certainly doesn't do much to convince anyone of the validity of your position.

My posts are in line with the thread topic. If I wanted to take every available opportunity, I'd post a lot more on the religion forum than I do, Right. But, uh...nice ad hominem.
 
"Psht. It's not that hard to figure out how to avoid wanting to kill yourself. The counselors are the ones who've made it so complicated with their namby-pamby discussions about feelings.

Of course, if people focused on the simplicity of recognizing their place in the world, working to improve their community, and appreciating the simple beauty in being alive, most of the suicide counselors would be out of a job. They have a vested self-interest in perpetuating the system."


See how foolish that sounds?
 
"Psht. It's not that hard to figure out how to avoid wanting to kill yourself. The counselors are the ones who've made it so complicated with their namby-pamby discussions about feelings.

Of course, if people focused on the simplicity of recognizing their place in the world, working to improve their community, and appreciating the simple beauty in being alive, most of the suicide counselors would be out of a job. They have a vested self-interest in perpetuating the system."

See how foolish that sounds?

Most suicide counselors are volunteers. They direct suicidal people to medical doctors who can help these folks with what we now know is a medical condition.

But, nice try.
 
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You mean, like sitting in a pew on Sunday? I suspect if you actually looked at the work schedule of the average pastor, you'd be appalled at how little real work some of these people do.

I don't think you have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Every church I've ever seen has mass 7 days a week (including several on the weekends), religious education 2-4 nights a week, confirmations, baptisms, weddings, confessionals, etc. In addition, they're open for most of the hours that those things aren't going on.

Did you know that there are many denominations (like the Mormons) where the clergy are ALL unpaid? And yet, they manage to function and have a more highly developed welfare system for their members than most other denominations.

Great!

I think that they have a vested interest in maintaining the system that goes beyond altruistic.

Sort of like how suicide hotline workers have a vested interest in people trying to kill themselves or how homeless shelter workers have a vested interest in people living on the streets, right?

My posts are in line with the thread topic. If I wanted to take every available opportunity, I'd post a lot more on the religion forum than I do, Right. But, uh...nice ad hominem.

You accuse anyone who works in a church of looking for a "gullible herd" to support them and I'm the one making ridiculous arguments?
 
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Psht. It's not that hard to figure out how to avoid treating people like crap. The clergy are the ones who've made it so complicated with their theological disputes.

Of course, if people focused on the simplicity of acting justly, loving tenderly, and walking humbly before the divine, most of the clergy would be out of a job. They have a vested self-interest in perpetuating the system.

In my experience, people don't reject religion because it's too complicated. They reject it because they think their own personal issues are too complicated and the answers they're being given are too simple. Simple does not equal easy.
 
Most suicide counselors are volunteers

Among those that work part-time, sure. Just like many part-time pastors work for free.
Among those that work full-time, I bet the majority are paid. Just like full-time pastors.

They direct suicidal people to medical doctors who can help these folks with what we now know is a medical condition.

Which has what to do with what we're talking about? They have a vested interest in people calling their suicide hotline just like pastors have a vested interest in people showing up to church. You just think that one is a good use of dollars while the other isn't.
 
I can only speak for Christianity, as that's what I know and belong to. And let me start by saying I recognize that many evil things have been done in the name of the church. Hate, persecution of others, war. That said, the church has done a lot of good as well. I'll simply try to list some of good the church has brought to mankind.

1. Fiscal charity. Yeah, as percentage its not huge. Most church tithes do go towards covering salary, building costs, and day to day operations. Churches aren't set up for the primary purpose of charity. However, almost all churches have a food pantry or a benevolence fund or some sort of charitable function(s). Plus there are many religious charities are set up to provide basic needs to others as a way of displaying God's love.

2. Charity through serving. Donation of time is almost as important as donation of money. Many churches routinely organize their members into volunteering to serve in other charities: homeless shelters, soup kitchens, ect. Plus many people serve within the church community. My wife and I for instance donate time in helping with our youth group. I'm not going to say we're the greatest, but we try to provide guidance and be positive adult role models - which is espeically important for some of our kids who have almost no positive role models actively involved in their lives.

3. Counseling. As someone else said, pastors do more than just deliver a sermon on Sunday. One of their other primary roles is that of counselor, primarly in a spiritual sense yes, but also emotional.

4. Support network or sense of community. I think this is more important than ever. Back in the old days people could rely on their extended family, but nowadays that's not the case for many people. I can't begin to tell you how wonderful our church was while my grandmother was sick and dying. Or when my father was on strike. Or when my brother lost his job. Or when my father-in-law was out of work. Or when my wife's grandfather passed away. You get the picture.

5. Moral and spiritual instruction. Can you be a good person without religion? Yeah, unquestionably. But ideally churches should go beyond trying to make us "good people". They should be making us more Christ-like.

6. And then there is the most important function of the church. Spreading the good news of salvation. I know some folks here will reject it as a fairy tale or whatever. That's their choice and I don't particularly care to debate it because I've learned you can't debate anyone into accepting salvation. However, I will just say I believe it is very real and easily the greatest service the church provides.
 
Every church I've ever seen has mass 7 days a week (including several on the weekends), religious education 2-4 nights a week, confirmations, baptisms, weddings, confessionals, etc. In addition, they're open for most of the hours that those things aren't going on.

That's the Catholic church. Protestant churches don't maintain those sorts of hours.
 
That's the Catholic church. Protestant churches don't maintain those sorts of hours.

And I'm sure they do plenty of other things to help their communities even when they're not open for mass.

Regardless, if that's your problem, why not limit your criticism to the particular protestant churches that do things you don't like rather than attacking clergymen in general as hucksters and parishioners in general as gullible sheep?
 
Seriously, did you even read the entire post?

Of course I read the entire post. You have your perspective, and I have mine. Did you really think I'd find it persuasive? Do you think I've never belonged to a church?
 
And I'm sure they do plenty of other things to help their communities even when they're not open for mass.

Where does the bible state that people are supposed to be paid to do those things?

Regardless, if that's your problem, why not limit your criticism to the particular protestant churches that do things you don't like rather than attacking clergymen in general as hucksters and parishioners in general as gullible sheep?

If I were referring to priests, I'd have said priests. I said pastors because I was referring to the protestant variant. However, parishioners, in general, are gullible sheep, in my opinion. :shrug:

Sorry if that offends you. Your opinion may be substantially different. You may even consider me a moronic asshole for saying these things. I'm probably okay with that, though, because my opinions have been forged in the furnace of personal experience, and I'm pretty clear on what I think about this subject, and the net negative effect of religion overall.

You should ask yourself why you care so much what a heathen thinks.
 
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I don't think all religions are equal with their contributions. I won't post my honest opinion about religions, but overall I think they have done more "good" than bad. Irreligious/atheism has it's evils too. I think it's based on human nature. I know great atheists and annoying ones, just like I know great religious people and annoying ones. It's about human nature in my opinion, religion or not. Religion itself has done nothing good what so ever. However, the people following the religion/doing as the religion says are the ones who bring about the good as well as the evil.
 
That's the Catholic church. Protestant churches don't maintain those sorts of hours.

Depends on the church. Most Protestant churches don't offer services 7 days a week. But its fairly common to see services at least a couple of the following times:
Sunday morning (sometimes two services scheduled, one early, one late)
Sunday evening
Saturday evening
Wednesday evening (usually a "Bible study" rather than a worship service)
Throughout my church's history at one time or another we've offered services at all of these times except Saturday evenings.

On top of that, various ministry groups meet and use the building on a regular basis:
Children's ministry (1st grade - 5th grade)
Youth Group (6th grade and up)
Women's ministry
Men's ministry
Small group Bible study
Another church that serves the Mexican community out here uses our facility as well
Plus the church doors are open during the "work week" and people can drop by for counseling or whatever
Plus various other organizations use our building for meetings either regularly or occassionally: Cub Scouts, Burros football, Little League, and probably some others I'm not aware of

So its not like the typical church building is sitting empty and unused most of the time.
 
Religions have created good people with good morals... even if few religious people choose to ignore the principles of their faith. People can disagree with some of their opinions, but almost all of the religious people I know have their hearts in the right place.

"a few" is an understatement - the number of people, priests, minister, bishops and other leaders who have tortured, murdered, waged war and everything else "in the name of God" leaves a path of destruction that goes on throughout history - quite the body count.

Oddly - almost every single God and Goddess is directly responsible for mass deaths (like the Flood in Genesis) at the same time.

So - some people being 'good' because they go to church? To me that isn't worth the millions of people who've lost their lives in one way or another because of "God's will"
 
Where does the bible state that people are supposed to be paid to do those things?

Where does the bible state that all people working for the church in any capacity (full time or part time) shall do so without pay?

If I were referring to priests, I'd have said priests. I said pastors because I was referring to the protestant variant. However, parishioners, in general, are gullible sheep, in my opinion. :shrug: Sorry if that offends you. Your opinion may be substantially different. You may even consider me a moronic asshole for saying this. I'm probably okay with that. WHy do you need me to salve your feelings on this subject?

I don't care about you "salving my feelings," as I know enough to take your criticisms of religion with a brick of salt. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous your statement is in the hope that you might say "You know, you're right - my earlier statement unfairly attacked a huge swath of religious people based on the actions of a particular subset of people that I found objectionable. Now that that's out of the way, let's have a reasonable and measured discussion of the topic." If you'd rather not, that's fine too.

(And as a side note, catholics call them pastors as well.)
 
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So its not like the typical church building is sitting empty and unused most of the time.

Be honest. The average church building is incredibly under-utilized. The pastor's offices may be used Tues-Friday, but the rest of the building is empty on Monday, Tuesday, all day Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and most Saturdays.

Even on Sunday, the building is probably only used 5 hours a day.

Compare that to the average Boys & Girls Club, which runs 8 a.m. until 10 p.m., Monday - Saturday, or even the average office building.
 
Where does the bible state that all people working for the church in any capacity (full time or part time) shall do so without pay?
I asked you first. You believe they should be paid, please feel free to justify this position using scripture.

I don't care about you "salving my feelings," as I know enough to take your criticisms of religion with a brick of salt. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous your statement is in the hope that you might say "You know, you're right - my earlier statement unfairly attacked a huge swath of religious people based on the actions of a particular subset of people that I found objectionable. Now that that's out of the way, let's have a reasonable and measured discussion of the topic."

The problem is that I don't believe that. I do tend to believe that most religious people are deluded by the notion that they need to put themselves through a huge amount of rigamarole in order to connect to God. And, if there is a God, I don't believe that's what he/she intended.

How exactly would you like me to couch that sentiment in order to avoid offending you? I have a feeling that no matter HOW I say it, you're going to be annoyed by it.

This is a topic that people have strong feelings about. I think religion is a tremendously negative force: socially, personally, historically, financially, and environmentally. I'm sorry my views offend you. I know you disagree. :shrug:

p.s. For the record, engaging in ad hominems is no way to conduct a measured, reasonable discussion. I have not attacked you personally, but you've attacked me numerous times on this thread. Why is that?
 
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