John Stossel called for repeal of public accommodations section of Civil Rights Act

Re: John Stossel called for repeal of public accommodations section of Civil Rights A

MaggieD said:

Knew that!! Ha!



Doesn't tell me as much as maybe it tells you, Right. I'm a Realtor in suburban Chicago. I have been involved in a number of instances where my client told me right up front, "I'm not selling to Blacks." That's when ya' push your chair back from the table, and say, "Find somebody else to list your house. I'm not going to jail." (Realtors who even ACKNOWLEDGE a statement like that are in soooo much trouble.) Also had two sellers who refused to sign contracts when they found out the buyers were Black. In both instances, my broker and I pointed to the error of their ways clearly enough so that they SIGNED. But they never would have signed without a serious Come ta' Jesus meeting. On the buy end, when I've represented Blacks, I've had Sellers say things to me when I've shown their home that clearly indicate prejudice is alive and kickin' -- even in Chicago. Imagine the south.

Remember Denny's a few years back? Some restaurant in the south refused to seat blacks? It'd spring up so fast it'd make people's heads swim.

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I don't even understand why someone would refuse to sell their house to anyone. You're leaving the neigborhood, so why would it matter to you who moves in? All that matters is how much they'll pay. I'd sell my house to neo-nazi space lesbians if they gave me the best offer.

As for the question at hand, most businesses that enacted an open racist policy would be run out of business quicker than you can say "No negros". Racism is no longer accepted in the public domain.

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Harry Guerrilla said:

It pretty much already is, most of it is de facto segregation though.

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Maybe. But then that's even more an argument that Civil Rights statutes need to stand. At least there's a remedy now.

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Psychoclown said:

I don't even understand why someone would refuse to sell their house to anyone. You're leaving the neigborhood, so why would it matter to you who moves in? All that matters is how much they'll pay. I'd sell my house to neo-nazi space lesbians if they gave me the best offer.

As for the question at hand, most businesses that enacted an open racist policy would be run out of business quicker than you can say "No negros". Racism is no longer accepted in the public domain.

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The Neo-Nazi you can discriminate against. But not the lesbian. Ha! I don't agree with you, but that's why DP is so interesting.

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MaggieD said:

Maybe. But then that's even more an argument that Civil Rights statutes need to stand. At least there's a remedy now.

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I don't think you can force people to want to live with other, different people.

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Harry Guerrilla said:

I don't think you can force people to want to live with other, different people.

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You're right. You can't. Don't want to live in certain neighborhoods? Don't buy there. It's that simple. But a seller? He can't "not" sell his home to someone considered a protected class in Civil Rights/Fair Housing Laws. It ends up being a very emotional thing for a seller when they realize they can't discriminate. They're furious. But....that's the law.

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MaggieD said:

The Neo-Nazi you can discriminate against. But not the lesbian. Ha! I don't agree with you, but that's why DP is so interesting.

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Why discriminate against either? If I'm selling a product and you got enough cold hard cash, I don't care who or what you are. Just shut up and pay me.

And let me ask you this. Let's say this portion of the Civil Rights act is repealed. If a resturant were to open up near you and it hung a "No Blacks" sign in its window, would you go there? Would anyone you know go there? Of all the people I've know or have known, I can only think of a handful. Mostly from my dad's family down south who are 60+ and even in their case it would be more out of indifference than active support for racist policies. Then I can think of one or two people who I heard make openly racist statements at one time or another. Other than that, I don't think anyone I know would even consider going into such an establishment.

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MaggieD said:

If I understand your question, you're asking, "What other reason could a business refuse service to someone other than racism?" If that's your question, I would say that a restaurant could refuse service to anyone who was stereotyped as being a bad tipper, for example. Guess who fits that stereotype.

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Last I checked people of all races and backgrounds are capable of being bad tippers.

If a SPECIFIC PERSON is a bad tipper, then yes I believe businesses should be able to deny service to that person.

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MaggieD said:

To HarryG, too...

My personal feelings didn't enter into it. The way to get in a client's face when they come out with something like that is to make a really big impression. Saying what I said did that. I'm not trying to make a moral statement. I'm in business to make money. I wanted -- and got -- the client's listing with the clear understanding that there would be absolutey no racial discimination in the sale of his home. The second incident? I did it because I didn't want to get sued by HUD. That's the only power I had over the client, after all. Telling him, "Awwww, that's just not right," would get me thrown out of his house.

Without Civil Rights laws, certainly in the area of real estate, our country would quickly revert to a segregated mess.

Now, if my personal feelings are of interest to you, I do not consider myself prejudiced.

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The point I'm getting at is that the vast majority of people avoid discriminating not because they're threatened with jail, but because they simply don't approve of discrimination. If you had a racist colleague who refused to sell to blacks or encouraged people to back out of transactions with black purchasers, he would go out of business almost immediately due to the fact that he'd be losing business left and right. Like you said, you're in business to make money. Anyone who would willingly turn down thousands of dollars in commission just to prevent a black family from buying a house in some other neighborhood probably isn't going to last long.

And as was mentioned earlier, our country is already segregated to a massive degree, regardless of what the Civil Rights Act says.

Re: John Stossel called for repeal of public accommodations section of Civil Rights A

Mommy, why do black people hardly ever vote for Republicans?

Re: John Stossel called for repeal of public accommodations section of Civil Rights A

Psychoclown said:

Why discriminate against either? If I'm selling a product and you got enough cold hard cash, I don't care who or what you are. Just shut up and pay me.

And let me ask you this. Let's say this portion of the Civil Rights act is repealed. If a resturant were to open up near you and it hung a "No Blacks" sign in its window, would you go there? Would anyone you know go there? Of all the people I've know or have known, I can only think of a handful. Mostly from my dad's family down south who are 60+ and even in their case it would be more out of indifference than active support for racist policies. Then I can think of one or two people who I heard make openly racist statements at one time or another. Other than that, I don't think anyone I know would even consider going into such an establishment.

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I totally agree with you. I think people who do that are nutz. Nobody would put a sign like that in their windows. But my instincts tell me that, given no consequence, some restaurants would indeed discriminate loud and clear. "I'm sorry, there's a 2-hour wait." Honestly, I could even see restaurants turning into private clubs...not that much of a stretch...membership fee waived for some; not for others. The prejudiced people I ran into in my business were more often than not in the 40's-50's and over. You could be rght that it's going of the way of the dinosaur, but I don't think it's there yet. Imagine! If it's like that in Maggie's world in Chicago, what must it be like in the south?

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Groucho said:

Mommy, why do black people hardly ever vote for Republicans?

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They are led to believe that laws actually protect people.

Crazy I know, laws are only words on paper. :shrug:

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RightinNYC said:

The point I'm getting at is that the vast majority of people avoid discriminating not because they're threatened with jail, but because they simply don't approve of discrimination. If you had a racist colleague who refused to sell to blacks or encouraged people to back out of transactions with black purchasers, he would go out of business almost immediately due to the fact that he'd be losing business left and right. Like you said, you're in business to make money. Anyone who would willingly turn down thousands of dollars in commission just to prevent a black family from buying a house in some other neighborhood probably isn't going to last long.

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Real estate may be th wrong analogy for you to use. No one in the collar suburbs of Chicago is going to go out of business because they don't want to sell to blacks. And it isn't the agents, believe me. It's the sellers. The agents are scared to death of any appearance of steering or block-busting or racial discrimination. We just have to find a way to deal with those who are discriminating against them.

And as was mentioned earlier, our country is already segregated to a massive degree, regardless of what the Civil Rights Act says.

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I absolutely agree with you. Legislation will only accomplish so much. If it's, as you say, segregated NOW, what would it be like without the Civil Acts and Fair Housing legislation?

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MaggieD said:

I totally agree with you. I think people who do that are nutz. Nobody would put a sign like that in their windows. But my instincts tell me that, given no consequence, some restaurants would indeed discriminate loud and clear. "I'm sorry, there's a 2-hour wait." Honestly, I could even see restaurants turning into private clubs...not that much of a stretch...membership fee waived for some; not for others. The prejudiced people I ran into in my business were more often than not in the 40's-50's and over. You could be rght that it's going of the way of the dinosaur, but I don't think it's there yet. Imagine! If it's like that in Maggie's world in Chicago, what must it be like in the south?

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This of course assumes that the south's racism is more invidious that that of the north.

I absolutely agree with you. Legislation will only accomplish so much. If it's, as you say, segregated NOW, what would it be like without the Civil Acts and Fair Housing legislation?

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Again, this assumes that the de facto segregation would be substantially worse if not for the FHA. While it would certainly have an impact at the margins, I believe that the vast, vast majority of the de facto segregation in this country exists not because of overt racism, but because of economic disparities and social self-selection. Neither one of those things is affected by the FHA.

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RightinNYC said:

This of course assumes that the south's racism is more invidious that that of the north.

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You should have winked after that.

Re: John Stossel called for repeal of public accommodations section of Civil Rights A

MaggieD said:

You should have winked after that.

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I'm being 100% serious - I grew up in a largely white rural town in upstate NY and I never once saw anything approaching the level of casual racism and pervasive racial tension that you see in NYC. Friends from all over the south say the same thing.

There have been five large race riots in the last 20 years:

LA
Seattle
Oakland
NYC
Cincinnati

Not a southern city among them.

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RightinNYC said:

I'm being 100% serious - I grew up in a largely white rural town in upstate NY and I never once saw anything approaching the level of casual racism and pervasive racial tension that you see in NYC. Friends from all over the south say the same thing.

There have been five large race riots in the last 20 years:

LA
Seattle
Oakland
NYC
Cincinnati

Not a southern city among them.

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We get along pretty well here.
It would surprise most people, who think The South is a bastion of "hate them dern blacks."

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RightinNYC said:

I'm being 100% serious - I grew up in a largely white rural town in upstate NY and I never once saw anything approaching the level of casual racism and pervasive racial tension that you see in NYC. Friends from all over the south say the same thing.

There have been five large race riots in the last 20 years:

LA
Seattle
Oakland
NYC
Cincinnati

Not a southern city among them.

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Harry Guerrilla said:

We get along pretty well here.
It would surprise most people, who think The South is a bastion of "hate them dern blacks."

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I must admit I take my observations from my relatives in Kentucky -- and another forum I was on where people were using the Confederate Flag as a symbol of hate. I could sure be wrong.

I'm not familiar with the race riot links posted. But all of these cities have a high concentration of blacks. I'm not sure (God!!! Somebody's gunna hit me right over the head!!) but who starts these race riots??

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MaggieD said:

I must admit I take my observations from my relatives in Kentucky -- and another forum I was on where people were using the Confederate Flag as a symbol of hate. I could sure be wrong.

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The vast majority of people here, who have a Confederate flag displayed, are not doing so for race based reasons.
A lot of people here have direct family connections to those who served in the Civil War.
Or it is regional pride, like a Yankees ballcap in NYC.

MaggieD said:

I'm not familiar with the race riot links posted. But all of these cities have a high concentration of blacks. I'm not sure (God!!! Somebody's gunna hit me right over the head!!) but who starts these race riots??

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Not entirely sure about those.

Re: John Stossel called for repeal of public accommodations section of Civil Rights A

Why stop at blacks, mexicans, etc? Why not guys that look like gay pirates:




old people:


guys that commit adultery and leave their dying wives for someone else:


I actually totally agree with him. Im going to open up a shop and only allow people I want in there.

Re: John Stossel called for repeal of public accommodations section of Civil Rights A

MaggieD said:

I must admit I take my observations from my relatives in Kentucky -- and another forum I was on where people were using the Confederate Flag as a symbol of hate. I could sure be wrong.

I'm not familiar with the race riot links posted. But all of these cities have a high concentration of blacks. I'm not sure (God!!! Somebody's gunna hit me right over the head!!) but who starts these race riots??

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Each of those riots involved blacks and the cities in question do have substantial concentrations of blacks, but none of them are majority-black cities. Places like Atlanta or Memphis are majority-black cities but don't have the same level of racial tension (going off second-hand info here).

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RightinNYC said:

Each of those riots involved blacks and the cities in question do have substantial concentrations of blacks, but none of them are majority-black cities. Places like Atlanta or Memphis are majority-black cities but don't have the same level of racial tension (going off second-hand info here).

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Isn't that interesting? I don't doubt you a bit. I did look up the Cincinnati race riot and that was touched off because a police officer shot a black suspect fleeing the scene. That was the 15th black male who'd been killed either BY police or died in police custody since 1995. Also a study had been done that showed that blacks were twice as likely as whites to be ticketed for not using seatbelts, driving w/o a license, driving w/o insurance. A culmination of factors. Does it prove that blacks are rowdy? Or that whites were prejudiced? Not sure. I do know something about Cincinnati. Many of the people who live and work there are from Kentucky. Don't know what that proves either.

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Harry Guerrilla said:

The vast majority of people here, who have a Confederate flag displayed, are not doing so for race based reasons.
A lot of people here have direct family connections to those who served in the Civil War.
Or it is regional pride, like a Yankees ballcap in NYC.

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As a kid, I was pretty enamored with the Civil War growing up. When my family went on vacation to several Civil War sites about 20 years ago, I bought a Confederate bandana and hung it up over my bed. The reason why I did so was 1) for regional pride and 2) because I was full of piss and vinegar and liked to snub my nose at authority.

I don't have it up anymore, and I probably wouldn't put it up either. It's not because I'm ashamed of it or anything - it's just not part of my personal decor anymore. It's not my thing.

But I do understand how people can use it as a symbol of regional pride and not just a symbol of hate. Even though the Confederate flag was used by rebellious states who seceded because of the injustice of slavery, we salute the U.S. flag every day the American government's institutionalized genocide against Native Americans. However, there is no call to change the U.S. flag for that reason.

However, MaggieD specifically mentioned that some people were using the Confederate flag as a symbol of hate. That is something I can also understand. However, members of the KKK burn crosses at their rallies and on the property of their targets for terror. This means that the KKK uses the Christian cross as a symbol of hate. However, Christianity is not going to change the symbol of it's religion because of that, and people don't call all Christians hatemongers because they continue to use the cross as a symbol of their faith.

I dunno - this may be off-topic for the thread, but I just wanted to address that issue.

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MaggieD said:

Isn't that interesting? I don't doubt you a bit. I did look up the Cincinnati race riot and that was touched off because a police officer shot a black suspect fleeing the scene. That was the 15th black male who'd been killed either BY police or died in police custody since 1995. Also a study had been done that showed that blacks were twice as likely as whites to be ticketed for not using seatbelts, driving w/o a license, driving w/o insurance. A culmination of factors. Does it prove that blacks are rowdy? Or that whites were prejudiced? Not sure. I do know something about Cincinnati. Many of the people who live and work there are from Kentucky. Don't know what that proves either.

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To be clear, I'm not implying that blacks are "rowdy" or that whites are prejudiced, I'm just noting that the largest incidents of racial unrest in recent history have occurred in northern and western cities that are actually more diverse. In southern cities, including those that are majority-black, there's not the same type of violent strife.

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samsmart said:

As a kid, I was pretty enamored with the Civil War growing up. When my family went on vacation to several Civil War sites about 20 years ago, I bought a Confederate bandana and hung it up over my bed. The reason why I did so was 1) for regional pride and 2) because I was full of piss and vinegar and liked to snub my nose at authority.

I don't have it up anymore, and I probably wouldn't put it up either. It's not because I'm ashamed of it or anything - it's just not part of my personal decor anymore. It's not my thing.

But I do understand how people can use it as a symbol of regional pride and not just a symbol of hate. Even though the Confederate flag was used by rebellious states who seceded because of the injustice of slavery, we salute the U.S. flag every day the American government's institutionalized genocide against Native Americans. However, there is no call to change the U.S. flag for that reason.

However, MaggieD specifically mentioned that some people were using the Confederate flag as a symbol of hate. That is something I can also understand. However, members of the KKK burn crosses at their rallies and on the property of their targets for terror. This means that the KKK uses the Christian cross as a symbol of hate. However, Christianity is not going to change the symbol of it's religion because of that, and people don't call all Christians hatemongers because they continue to use the cross as a symbol of their faith.

I dunno - this may be off-topic for the thread, but I just wanted to address that issue.

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As long as it is understood that it isn't a universal symbol of "We Southerners hate black people" I'm cool.

It's not the symbol but the persons usage that matters.

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Jucon said:

Last I checked people of all races and backgrounds are capable of being bad tippers.

If a SPECIFIC PERSON is a bad tipper, then yes I believe businesses should be able to deny service to that person.

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I lived with a TGIF waitress-manager. Even the black servers didn't like having blacks sat in their section. One girl, whose brother went to Harvard Law (and was in a class I was TA in many years ago while he was in college) noted that she hated waiting on blacks even though she was black. Why I asked her, I figure they'd tip you (she was very very pretty and a great server) really well.

No she said, they usually stiff me and everyone else.

I spent alot of time around servers-white-black, asian, many of them gay and liberal and they all said the same thing.