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Should the 14th amendment be amended or repealed?

Should the 14th Amendment be changed or repealed

  • Yes, it should be completely repealed

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    44
Wow! I thought conservatives were strict constitutionalists. It seems that many believe that the constitution, as written, is almost divinely inspired, if not written by God himself.

Constitutionalists, no matter how strict, do not believe that the Constitution is perfect as written. It is, however, the law and it must be obeyed unless and until it can be changed.

ok, so the child born and raised in iran to a mother who is lebanese and an American father would be found as an American citizen (and a lebanese citizen and an iranian citizen)

The child would be an American citizen. The matter of whether the child is also a citizen of Lebanon and/or Iran is a matter for the governments of Lebanon and Iran to decide, and the rules by which they make these decisions are not my concern.

what about the child born to a single woman who has arrived at the hospital without her birth certificate
let's make it worse. the mom dies at childbirth

the child who is born and abandoned on the steps of the catholic church (in the USA). American citizen - or not

If the child is adopted by American parents, it should be the same as if the child had been born to American parents. If the child becomes a ward of the State, obviously the child should be a citizen. Children with actual parents are of their parents' nationality.

I understand changing or repealing anchor baby laws to punish the parents, but why punish the child for the actions of their parents by withholding citizenship?

How is it "punishing" the child any more than denying citizenship to children born in other countries? Children have no more choice in where they are born than in whom they are born to, and being a citizen of another country is hardly a punishment.
 
I would also like the 14th amended to clarify this and give birth right citizenship only to children whose mothers are American citizens(any sap can claim to be the father on a birth certificate,which is why the father should not be used as a claim for birthright citizenship).

If some sap claims to be the father on the child's birth certificate that makes him the child's father. The children of American citizens should not be denied citizenship.
 
If some sap claims to be the father on the child's birth certificate that makes him the child's father. The children of American citizens should not be denied citizenship.

Claiming to be the father and actually being the father are two separate things. If the individual whose name on the birth certificate is not genetically related or has not adopted the child then he is not the child's father.
 
Congress proposes amendments (in nearly all cases); States approve or disapprove...

Yea I understand but I don't trust Congress, the states or the people to come to a reasonable and logical conclusion on this.

It would be a battled of propaganda, most of it heavily filled with appeals to emotion.
 
Claiming to be the father and actually being the father are two separate things. If the individual whose name on the birth certificate is not genetically related or has not adopted the child then he is not the child's father.

Bull****. Putting his name on the birth certificate makes him legally responsible for the child and is just as valid as formal adoption.
 
Claiming to be the father and actually being the father are two separate things. If the individual whose name on the birth certificate is not genetically related or has not adopted the child then he is not the child's father.

When it comes to child support, genetic relation doesn't matter. Whoever is on the birth certificate as that child's father has to pay that kid until s/he's 18. Regardless of what a DNA test may prove.
 
Oh upside guy, I hate to shatter your fragile little world view, but not all people in a group think alike. More than that, you may want to check what your stereotypes are because even those are horribly questionable.

Wow! I thought conservatives were strict constitutionalists.

Indeed, many are.

What you seem to fail to understand is that strict constitutionalists, or more strict constructionists, does not necessarily mean that you believe everything and anything in the constitution is perfect or unneeding of change. That is ridiculous to suggest, as the constitution itself within it HAS a decided example of it BEING changed. To suggest that strict cosntitutionalist means what you are suggesting, that a conservative must agree with EVERYTHING in the constitution at all times forever and ever, then one must believe essentially that we are living in a Pardox as conservatives must believe that something which in and of itself over turns itself (with regards to prohibition) is never needing of over turning while simultaneously must be in favor of amendments overturning things if they're to be in favor of the constitution.

Your position makes no logical sense.

What is MORE logical is the belief that the Constitution is a solid document that is not easily transmutable. That there aren't secret rights hidden within it unseen, or that it should be combined with European law to form new opinions of what it means. That, while it is possible for portions of the constitution to potentially be outdated or unneeded, if something is truly worthy of being added or removed there is a process to do it. A process which is difficult to match the difficulty of doing the opposite action, to assure that things are done due to true need rather than simply political positioning or temporary political fads.

Which is what is being talked about here, FOLLOWING the constitution to amend it, which the constitution accounts to allow.

It seems that many believe that the constitution, as written, is almost divinely inspired, if not written by God himself.

Yes, many people find the constitution extremely inspired...be it divinely or by extremely enlightened and intelligent/wise individuals whose forethought was rooted in the desire for the longevity of the country they were creating rather than instant gratification that often came later.

This does not mean that there can not be portions of the constitution that over time need to be changed. Indeed, if one is truly going to be respectful of the insight that the founders placed within the Constitution, one must recognize that they themselves realized that errors could be potential made or things could change and thus built into the constitution a way in which to rectify those things. As already stated, you seem to believe that conservatives MUST think the constitution is infallable, which is illogical to suggest because it would in and of itself create a parodox as there is a clear and present situation similar to this already IN the constitution where a decision was essentially deemed a mistake and the public outcry to rectify it was strong enough.

It seems every time we have a new nominee to the SCOTUS, we have to deal with whether the nominee is a strict Constitutionalist or an activist.

Perhaps then you should actually pay attention to those discussions as you are severely lacking knowledge of what a Strict Constructionist is.

We consistently hear about the damn liberals that advocate a contemporary review/interpretation of our founder's intent as blasphemous as re-writting the Bible

Yes, but you seem to be either unknowing of the actual full argument or just dishonestly leaving it out. They dislike contemporary review/interpretation being done by members of the court who simply think, THEMSELVES, that an aspect of the constitution is wrong or outdated and thus based on things OTHER than the constitution such as their own beliefs, international law, and other such things they decide to alter, ignore, or change what the constitution essentially says or exist things that it supposedly "Says" out of thin air.

Indeed, the notion of "strict-constructionist" and "Activist" is rather pointless to this discussion, as they're talking about the role of JUDGES with regards to the constitution. Namely, rather the judge should read the constitution plainly and staticly, not changing what things mean to suit the "times" and whatever the public currently feels, and judge based on that or that a judge should use the constitution as a malleable base line that can be manipulated and re-interprited to fit the current societal norms and desires allowing for the creation of unspoken rights or the obsoletion/limitation of stated ones.

In this case we are speaking about there IS no issue of judges determining the constitution or constitutionality. Rather its people wanting to FOLLOW the constitution and its process to properly amend it as is dictated BY the cosntitution.

(bad example, some conservative goof is already on this Conservative Bible Project - Conservapedia).


Awww, how cute. You link to an idiotic site that's open to be edited by numerous people who had numerous previous editors come out and state htey were liberals who were purposefully putting forth parodies, and is barely known let alone referenced by the vast majority of conservatives in the U.S.

Anyway, the strict constitutionalists generally believe the Constitution is beyond reproach*.

No, they believe the constitution is a static document that can not have the meaning of its words change over time simply due to changing societal views by anything less than constitutional amendment.

For example, if "hate speech" became such a heated issue in our society that laws were passed banning any form of such speech from occuring and that law was challenged a strict constructionist would likely strike it down because even though society has changed in such a way that it seems a societal norm to denegrate and disallow such speech as being "harmful to society" or "infringing upon their rights", in reality it can affect directly nothing but ones feelings which isn't cause for actual harm and simply because a bunch of people in society dislike it doesn't mean the meaning of free speech can be changed or limited.

However....

If people got together and managed to push for an amendment that disallowed "hate speech" then, while they may or may not support the amendment happening, they could not legitimately argue it as an activist creation as they are following the constitutional means and process for how to do such a thing.

BTW - nothing is a bigger waste of time, expense and energy than amending the Constitution (even talking about it is silly). We couldn't get the ERA done in the 70's in a much more co-operative political environment. If you don't like the Constitution says, I suggest you just deal with it.

Let me use your reasoning.

Why do you hate the constitution, since you are condemning those that seek to follow the procedures it lays out?
 
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How is it "punishing" the child any more than denying citizenship to children born in other countries? Children have no more choice in where they are born than in whom they are born to, and being a citizen of another country is hardly a punishment.

Come on Korimyr, their parents left their country for a reason.
 
Simple enough. Children born with one parent who is a US citizen are automatically US citizens. Otherwise, they must undergo the naturalization process.

ok, so if i claim to be the father of every baby born to an illegal alien mother, then that assertion makes each of those babies an American citizen under your protocol
 
amended how?
as it stands, those who were born on American soil are American citizens with the only exception being those who are not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States. that would exempt the child of a diplomat, for example; the child of an enemy soldier would be another (and more far fetched)

that definition of citizenship at section one of the 14th amendment appears to be clear cut. what would be a better way to define who does (and/or does not) enjoy American citizenship?

Why not an enemy soldier? Isn't he/she as much under the jurisdiction of the US as an illegal alien? If not, why not?
 
ok, so if i claim to be the father of every baby born to an illegal alien mother, then that assertion makes each of those babies an American citizen under your protocol

Why not?.... just put your name on the birth certificates and be prepared to support the kids and you are good to go. :lamo

I can just see you paying out $364,926,748 a month, or going to jail for lack of child support. :mrgreen:
 
If your senate is about to modify the federal constitution, I hope EVERYONE is paying VERY close attention to what they're doing every step of the way.

I personally would be worried given how apathetic most people are today toward their own country's politics, and how statist the fed is becoming.
 
Apparently, the Senate will soon have hearings regarding the Fourteenth Article of Amendment to the United States Constitution. It was passed in the wake of the United States Civil War to ensure that all Blacks whose forced servitude was ended in the 1860s. Given that the world is different today and the challenges facing the Union have changed, should the amendment be changed, repealed, or left untouched?

I thought the fringe-right wanted to prove they're NOT racist.

Good start...:roll:
 
I'm against it unless someone can demonstrate what a child born here to parents that are legal residents has done his/herself to earn his/her citizenship that a child born her to parents that are illegal residents has not done.

As far as I can tell, the only arguments in favor of these types of amendments are irrational gibberish.
 
Its funny how the right-wingers try to argue that Obama is trying to destroy our Constitution....when in reality, it is the right-wing that has sought to destroy our Constitution for decades. At least now...with this issue and gay rights issues they are not even trying to be discreet about it.
 
I'm against it unless someone can demonstrate what a child born here to parents that are legal residents has done his/herself to earn his/her citizenship that a child born her to parents that are illegal residents has not done.

As far as I can tell, the only arguments in favor of these types of amendments are irrational gibberish.

You have it backwards...... legal residents haven't broken any laws to be here, therefore they are under the jurisdiction of the US government if a child is born on US soil. Illegal alien invaders have done something illegal to be here, and in no way can be considered under the jurisdiction of the US government if a child is born on US soil.

Think of it this way.. Illegal aliens are hiding from the fed. If we don’t even know they are here, how can we have jurisdiction over them?

PS. I’m not sure I like the idea of children of legal resident aliens getting automatic citizenship. I think at least one parent should be a citizen before a child gets citizenship….. Jus sanguinis
is a law of nature, jus soli is just geography.
 
The 14th should not change at all. Babies born in the US from illegal immigrants should be automatically considered US citizens. This entire country is built on premises like the sins of the father don't translate to the son. The baby has done nothing; has committed no crime. It couldn't pick where it was to be born. It couldn't pick nor is the baby at fault for the crimes of it's parents. The parents have broken the law and they can be sent home but there is no reason to punish the child. Even if those parents take the child home with them, that child should still be considered a US citizen. Or at least have dual citizenship until age 18 and then the option to pick one citizenship at that age.

To systematically reject these babies as non-citizens spits in the face of what it means to be an American. It says that we have rejected the ideals of the country that accepts all legal comers (again, the baby has broken no laws).
 
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Why not an enemy soldier? Isn't he/she as much under the jurisdiction of the US as an illegal alien? If not, why not?

nope. that enemy soldier is opposing the US jurisdiction - actively attempting to end it - following the mandate of another soverign nation (or terrorist regime)
 
Why not?.... just put your name on the birth certificates and be prepared to support the kids and you are good to go. :lamo

I can just see you paying out $364,926,748 a month, or going to jail for lack of child support. :mrgreen:

glad you agree. as you should then be able to recognize, we will have then done nothing to end the anchor baby problem that the fuzzy amendment to the 14th amendment is intended to cure

and baby jesus' mama would probably agree to hold me harmless for child support as the consideration for making USA citizenship possible for her anchor baby
 
ok, so if i claim to be the father of every baby born to an illegal alien mother, then that assertion makes each of those babies an American citizen under your protocol

Yes, as they should be, because you are an American citizen and those are your children. When you claim to be the father of those children, you are making yourself responsible for their welfare and their upbringing-- making them Americans, just like you. If you're going to be the father of her children, you should also probably consider marrying her, which will not make her a US citizen but will make it easier for her to become one. This is also right, as marrying an American shows a commitment to living as an American.

The 14th should not change at all. Babies born in the US from illegal immigrants should be automatically considered US citizens. This entire country is built on premises like the sins of the father don't translate to the son. The baby has done nothing; has committed no crime. It couldn't pick where it was to be born. It couldn't pick nor is the baby at fault for the crimes of it's parents. The parents have broken the law and they can be sent home but there is no reason to punish the child.

Come on Korimyr, their parents left their country for a reason.

They may have, but that doesn't make them Americans. Being the same nationality as their parents is not a punishment. There is a process by which people who wish to become Americans, and who wish for their children to be Americans, can change their nationality and be accepted into our community. We can not and should not be responsible for people who do not follow this process and abide by our laws. We have the right to decide, as a nation, who belongs within our nation and who does not.

I'm against it unless someone can demonstrate what a child born here to parents that are legal residents has done his/herself to earn his/her citizenship that a child born her to parents that are illegal residents has not done.

Citizenship in most nations, ours included, is not earned. It is a privilege automatically extended to the families that belong to the nation. We allow foreigners to earn that privilege because we are a nation of immigrants and we believe that immigration makes our nation stronger. We're under no obligation to do this.

Its funny how the right-wingers try to argue that Obama is trying to destroy our Constitution....when in reality, it is the right-wing that has sought to destroy our Constitution for decades. At least now...with this issue and gay rights issues they are not even trying to be discreet about it.

Amending our Constitution does not destroy it. It has been amended multiple times in our nation's history, including the addition of our most cherished rights. Our Constitution, and our nation, is stronger for our ability to address the changing needs of our society.
 
Yes, as they should be, because you are an American citizen and those are your children. When you claim to be the father of those children, you are making yourself responsible for their welfare and their upbringing-- making them Americans, just like you. If you're going to be the father of her children, you should also probably consider marrying her, which will not make her a US citizen but will make it easier for her to become one. This is also right, as marrying an American shows a commitment to living as an American.
you misunderstand
i could claim to be the father of EVERY child born of an illegal alien, thereby causing every child to acquire American citizenship
to marry all the mothers would be bigamy on my part and by every married mother of a newborn, who would recognize me (for citizenship purposes only) to be the father of their child
your revision of the 14th amendment will have allowed a wholesale eligibility of new citizens who otherwise would not be found to be Americans. and those kids would not even have to be born in the USA; they could be born anywhere so long as an American "parent", most easily the one not giving birth, will affirm that the new born is his
and a mother seeking to have their child attain an American citizenship thru this manipulation of your revised amendment, would ordinarily agree to release the American "father" of any responsibilities regarding the support and welfare of the child, as a condition of the American "father" asserting the child as his own. and if that mother is already married, she certainly would not look forward to the encumbrance of a new gringo husband
just poking holes in your proposed amendment to expose its flaws

They may have, but that doesn't make them Americans. Being the same nationality as their parents is not a punishment. There is a process by which people who wish to become Americans, and who wish for their children to be Americans, can change their nationality and be accepted into our community. We can not and should not be responsible for people who do not follow this process and abide by our laws. We have the right to decide, as a nation, who belongs within our nation and who does not.



Citizenship in most nations, ours included, is not earned. It is a privilege automatically extended to the families that belong to the nation. We allow foreigners to earn that privilege because we are a nation of immigrants and we believe that immigration makes our nation stronger. We're under no obligation to do this.



Amending our Constitution does not destroy it. It has been amended multiple times in our nation's history, including the addition of our most cherished rights. Our Constitution, and our nation, is stronger for our ability to address the changing needs of our society.
 
If your senate is about to modify the federal constitution, I hope EVERYONE is paying VERY close attention to what they're doing every step of the way.

I personally would be worried given how apathetic most people are today toward their own country's politics, and how statist the fed is becoming.

Hmmm... in the U.S., the Senate doesn't have the power to modify the Constitution...
 
you misunderstand
i could claim to be the father of EVERY child born of an illegal alien, thereby causing every child to acquire American citizenship

Good luck paying your child support.

and a mother seeking to have their child attain an American citizenship thru this manipulation of your revised amendment, would ordinarily agree to release the American "father" of any responsibilities regarding the support and welfare of the child, as a condition of the American "father" asserting the child as his own. and if that mother is already married, she certainly would not look forward to the encumbrance of a new gringo husband

American law does not recognize prior agreements concerning child support and many American States automatically assign paternity to the husband of the child's mother.
 
Good luck paying your child support.
yea, as if all child support is paid
in many communities, not only does the father not pay child support, on 'father's day' he comes by to pick up his share of the welfare check the presence of his progeny generated
and you fail to recognize that the foreign mothers - who want their child to be an American citizen - would gladly give up an expectation of child support for an American "father" to recognize their child as his own
American law does not recognize prior agreements concerning child support ...
really, please offer the cites which would show us this to be fact
... and many American States automatically assign paternity to the husband of the child's mother.
but the mother would be giving birth prepared to identify the "American" father as the one shown on the birth certificate
over time the hospital wards would get savvy to it and have the certificates preprinted with the same "father's" pre-printed name
and recognize that the birth no longer has to occur in US territory; under your proposal, that the American "father" is identified as such on the foreign birth certificate will be all that is needed to establish the American citizenship of the child ... despite its being born elsewhere. [sarcasm] no way that result would be manipulated to establish anchor babies [/sarcasm]
again, just poking holes in your proposed "amendment" to the 14th amendment
 
They may have, but that doesn't make them Americans. Being the same nationality as their parents is not a punishment. There is a process by which people who wish to become Americans, and who wish for their children to be Americans, can change their nationality and be accepted into our community. We can not and should not be responsible for people who do not follow this process and abide by our laws. We have the right to decide, as a nation, who belongs within our nation and who does not.

Being born on American soil has always made someone American. See A, they are born on American soil and as they are a new person, they are under the direct jurisdiction of the US especially DHHS. So yes it does make them American; you are stripping them of their rights based on a prejudice. If you read this carefully, you will see that most Americans are Americans simply because they were born here, not because both or one of their parents are Americans. The parental exception doesn't come in until a person is born outside of US soil.

United States Code: Title 8,1401. Nationals and citizens of United States at birth | LII / Legal Information Institute
 
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