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Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right?

Left or Right, folks?

  • Left

    Votes: 6 25.0%

  • Right

    Votes: 18 75.0%
  • Total voters
    24
Not a poll directed at me, but going backwards, when I first checked out the Libertarians back in '95 I liked 80% of the planks. Liber-al, Liber-tarian. There is something there, at least closer to the left-of-center demography, of which I am not. Just an observation.

I have more respect for the Libertarians than I do for the GOP.
 
Fiscally, I identify a little more with the right. In my own personal views, I tend to lean right. On social issues, I lean left.
 
It's hard to say really. I think there are issues on both the right and left side that libertarians can agree with. But each side also has ideals which differ radically and fundamentally from libertarian political philosophy.
 
Black_Zawisza said:
This isn't a matter of semantics to me. I honestly don't know what you mean. :p
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When people talk about morality in politics they generally talk about crap that only affects them, i.e. drugs, prostitution, obscenity.
 
Yes, I'm a libertarian myself and fully aware that they are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I suppose a better way to phrase my question would be this: which is more important to you; a minimal welfare state, low taxes, the free market, etc; or nonaggressive foreign policy, being pro-gay marriage, and so on?
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Definitely the former. This is ultimately the question you want answered, which will identify you as a textbook libertarian or "left-libertarian". I think most of the former concern themselves with lower taxes and a minarchist view, while left-libertarians are really liberals that can't quite subscribe to a bloated bureaucracy or redistribution.
 
Black_Zawisza said:
Yes, I'm a libertarian myself and fully aware that they are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I suppose a better way to phrase my question would be this: which is more important to you; a minimal welfare state, low taxes, the free market, etc; or nonaggressive foreign policy, being pro-gay marriage, and so on?
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Can we not have both? Well I don't think anyone really needs to be "pro-gay marriage", you can hate it if you want, but as it is a contract and people have the right to contract, we should note that we can't legitimately use government to fight it. I like non-aggressive foreign policy as well. Do you have to go to war? Sometimes, yes. But I'd rather we keep our military as strictly defensive. And I would put that on the same level as reduced federal government, minimal welfare state, lower taxes, and an actual free market system. Which are all important. We're not imperial here, we don't have the responsibility to go around nation building and bringing democracy to the world. We waste too much money on the endeavor. That doesn't mean that we're isolationists, but rather non-interventionist (as much as possible, sometimes you have to get involved).
 
Black_Zawisza said:
You support laws criminalizing murder (I assume). How is that not enforcing morality?
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Every law in existence is a form of legislating morality, so I don't think that "legislating morality" is a good description of laws we don't agree with. The disagreement pertains to which morality should be legislated:

1. Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose, or
2. Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose -- unless you might hurt yourself.
 
Black_Zawisza said:
You want to criminalize murder because you want to prevent people from harming others, which you see as wrong. Is that not enforcing morality?
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It's not a matter of it being right or wrong, that's all subjective. It's a matter of it being harmful or not to the society. If we're going around killing one another willy nilly, that's harmful to society. "Right" or "Wrong" is irrelevant. Even harming another is kind of irrelevant because then you have to define harm to the individual. Emotional harm? Physical harm? If I break up with a boyfriend and he's emotionally devastated, did I "harm" him? Obviously lines must be drawn, and that line should stop where it affects society. Running around beating up people, killing them, raping them, stealing their ****... all of that negatively affects society because it makes it impossible to keep any semblence of order. And hey, that's fine if that's the type of society you want. But if that's NOT the type of society you want, then you must work to criminalize the things that harm the society.
 
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Black_Zawisza said:
Sorry if this ticks some of you off, but I intentionally left out a "Moderate" option in the poll. I'd rather not have anybody sitting on the fence.

If you're having trouble, think about this: when someone posts a thread with a title claiming the entire Left or Right is bigoted, delusional, etc, does your reaction change depending on which side is being targeted?
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Heres what I find even MORE fascinating...YOUR (and lets be honest...others as well) fascination...no...obsession...with "libertarians." Hell you have Gabriel slobbering in anticipation and throwing down handfulls of popcorn in anticipation! Seriously...fellas...WTF???
 
Black_Zawisza said:
Sorry if this ticks some of you off, but I intentionally left out a "Moderate" option in the poll. I'd rather not have anybody sitting on the fence.

If you're having trouble, think about this: when someone posts a thread with a title claiming the entire Left or Right is bigoted, delusional, etc, does your reaction change depending on which side is being targeted?
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No, my reaction does not change. I hate them both equally.
 
VanceMack said:
Heres what I find even MORE fascinating...YOUR (and lets be honest...others as well) fascination...no...obsession...with "libertarians." Hell you have Gabriel slobbering in anticipation and throwing down handfulls of popcorn in anticipation! Seriously...fellas...WTF???
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You will find that there are some people on this board who are obsessed with us. Some may just honestly be curious, but many others are just plain hostile and will do anything they can whenever they can to make a point of insulting libertarians.
 
I'm an ex-libertarian who was raised as a conservative. I've always leaned somewhat to the right, but in the last few years I've come to dislike the right about as much as the left...maybe even more in some ways. I find liberals a bit more intellectually honest.

I disagree with labeling welfare, taxes, and free markets as conservative causes and non-aggression as a liberal cause. Non-aggression is historically a conservative policy. Remember that it was the liberal Democrats Roosevelt and Johnson who gave us some of our worst wars right along with the New Deal and the Great Society. Warfare and welfare are both "big government" projects.

As for drugs, I think too much time is spent haggling over philosophical nuances like the meaning of "harm." If the damage that drugs supposedly do to people, families, and society were remotely comparable to the damage done by prohibition, it might be worth having that discussion. But it's not even close. Drugs are as safe as milk compared to prohibition, so that's the angle I think we should argue.
 
Ikari said:
You will find that there are some people on this board who are obsessed with us. Some may just honestly be curious, but many others are just plain hostile and will do anything they can whenever they can to make a point of insulting libertarians.
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Typically that says far more about them than it does about me (or libertarians).
 
digsbe said:
I would like to pose a question in regards to socially liberal libertarians. Are those views held because the individual believes the government shouldn't legislate morals (gay marriage, prostitution, abortions, etc). Or are they held because libertarians believe these things are morally correct and assert that the government should recognize them as so and extend legality/benefits to such things? If the first is true, would that be considered a left of the spectrum opinion? Or more of a "small government" right end of the spectrum opinion?
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Personally I'm very conservative, I don't care however what others do. :shrug:
 
Black_Zawisza said:
Sorry if this ticks some of you off, but I intentionally left out a "Moderate" option in the poll. I'd rather not have anybody sitting on the fence.

If you're having trouble, think about this: when someone posts a thread with a title claiming the entire Left or Right is bigoted, delusional, etc, does your reaction change depending on which side is being targeted?
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I think you should have included moderate... not just saying that because I am moderate. Some people simply relate to both sides equally. Or it could depend on the issues / arguments at hand (as is the case for me).
 
I find most side with the right because they are scared of government. I know that sounds like a cheap shot but.. it really is accurate. The spectre of the state is behind much of the libertarian psyche. Left of center libertarians have a time rationalising it's position with the exception of the collective agreement protecting individual rights the charter represents.
 
Gabriel said:
I find most side with the right because they are scared of government. I know that sounds like a cheap shot but.. it really is accurate. The spectre of the state is behind much of the libertarian psyche. Left of center has a time rationalising it's position with the exception of the collective agreement protecting individual rights the charter represents.
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If you love freedom, you'd be "scared of the state" too. :shrug:




“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” -TJ
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
If you love freedom, you'd be "scared of the state" too. :shrug:




“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” -TJ
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exhibit A, thanks Reverend.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
If you love freedom, you'd be "scared of the state" too. :shrug:




“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” -TJ
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Well they tend to use the term "scared of the state" as disparaging comments meant to insult the whole of the libertarian philosophy. I think it's better to state that we aren't so much scared of the government (we have guns), as much as we are reasonable suspicious of its intentions. I mean, for the most part many libertarians take a minarchist stance wherein we're looking to minimize government, not destroy it. Thus we can't be "scared" since we have desire to construct and use government towards the ends of protecting our individual rights and liberties. Though we understand that there must be limitations on the power of the government and it cannot be allowed to do everything for us. Because once government grows to large, it will start to work against the rights and liberties of the individual. The course of human history has well documented this fact. So instead of "scared", perhaps educated and reasonable suspicion.
 
Well they tend to use the term "scared of the state" as disparaging comments meant to insult the whole of the libertarian philosophy. I think it's better to state that we aren't so much scared of the government (we have guns), as much as we are reasonable suspicious of its intentions. I mean, for the most part many libertarians take a minarchist stance wherein we're looking to minimize government, not destroy it. Thus we can't be "scared" since we have desire to construct and use government towards the ends of protecting our individual rights and liberties. Though we understand that there must be limitations on the power of the government and it cannot be allowed to do everything for us. Because once government grows to large, it will start to work against the rights and liberties of the individual. The course of human history has well documented this fact. So instead of "scared", perhaps educated and reasonable suspicion
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Exhibit B.. the militant libertarian. Type A personality reaction to government as a hostile entity. "Gather your armies" kinda libertarian.
 
Gabriel said:
Exhibit B.. the militant libertarian. Type A personality reaction to government as a hostile entity. "Gather your armies" kinda libertarian.
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Hmm, interesting. I'd have to disagree with your "exhibits" as I hadn't said anything militant. In fact I had stated that we wish to construct and use government so that we can create a system which can help guarantee the protection and proliferation of our rights and liberties understanding the natural pitfalls that such a system could bring. Thus we act intelligently to properly constrict and use government as to benefit our rights and liberties while keeping the government in control so that it cannot grow to abuse our rights and liberties. There's nothing hostile or militant in that. But I suppose some people only want to disparage against libertarians with no proof or real argument, so it is what it is. Que sera sera.
 
Ikari said:
Hmm, interesting. I'd have to disagree with your "exhibits" as I hadn't said anything militant. In fact I had stated that we wish to construct and use government so that we can create a system which can help guarantee the protection and proliferation of our rights and liberties understanding the natural pitfalls that such a system could bring. Thus we act intelligently to properly constrict and use government as to benefit our rights and liberties while keeping the government in control so that it cannot grow to abuse our rights and liberties. There's nothing hostile or militant in that. But I suppose some people only want to disparage against libertarians with no proof or real argument, so it is what it is. Que sera sera.
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oh.. it was supposed to have a flare of humour in it. I can understand why you'd disagree of course. Don't want to take over the libertarian poll thingy.
 
VanceMack said:
Heres what I find even MORE fascinating...YOUR (and lets be honest...others as well) fascination...no...obsession...with "libertarians." Hell you have Gabriel slobbering in anticipation and throwing down handfulls of popcorn in anticipation! Seriously...fellas...WTF???
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Yes, I am fascinated with libertarianism. I have no problem with admitting that.

You know why? Look immediately to the left of this post. What is my political leaning?

Fail, dude. Fail.
 
Ikari said:
Hmm, interesting. I'd have to disagree with your "exhibits" as I hadn't said anything militant. In fact I had stated that we wish to construct and use government so that we can create a system which can help guarantee the protection and proliferation of our rights and liberties understanding the natural pitfalls that such a system could bring. Thus we act intelligently to properly constrict and use government as to benefit our rights and liberties while keeping the government in control so that it cannot grow to abuse our rights and liberties. There's nothing hostile or militant in that. But I suppose some people only want to disparage against libertarians with no proof or real argument, so it is what it is. Que sera sera.
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I know you're trying to inform but feeding this troll won't yield any education or intellectual benefits.
 
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