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Why the unemployment? A poll

Unemployment....why???


  • Total voters
    59
  • Poll closed .
Multiple factors: we have become a very unproductive country as far as actual products go (we've stop producing goods, and started turning to service industries), we seem to keep growing the government employee sector, while the private sector is standing still, and we have a disproportionately large portion of citizens on government payrolls in one form or another. Government doesn't produce- it's a net cost, and the private sector is growing at a much slower pace than the sector who needs support from the public sector.

Our productivity, of the few products that we do build is among the worlds best. Not that further improvements cannot be made, they can always be made... I worked the assembly line for years(defense industry)...they are not very efficient..
We need better, smarter engineers.
Management must learn to listen to the workers.
But there is no way we can compete against the Chinese; the work very hard, I believe, and for pennies per hour..
The answer/solution is obvious, or is it???
Government does produce, indirectly.
Where would our agriculture be without the Department of Agriculture?
This is public knowledge.
I'm thinking of a Department of Industry or Manufacturing, based along similar lines.
Please elaborate on the last sentence, as written, no sense results.
 
No, the US is the good position as being the biggest consumer market. Plus many of the companies in question on the US domestic market.. are American.
The US may be the largest market, but that doesnt mean it is the most profitable. If the US adds taxes to deliberately reduce the profits of companies that employ chepa labor, then those companies will make their profit elsewhere. This includes American companies as well.

You dont understand it the whole problem then. The government could take a hands off approach, remove all taxes, and the wage difference would still be huge, because the standard of living in the US is so much higher than the that of China and India. The only thing that could remotely help was going back to slavery.
No... YOU dont understand the whole 'problem'. The labor market no longer allows anyone to dictate wages; the US (and everyone else) is now part of that market. Anything that artificially raises the price of labor, be it taxation or union obstinace, does nothing but guarantee that the jpbs will go somewhere else.

What will have to happen is that those who do not have a job that cannot be sent elsewhere will have to accept a lower standard of living until such a time that market forces balance out wages across the entire market.
 
Here's mine: We need to reject the consumerist and entitlement mindset that got us in hock to the tune of $54 trillion and get back to some of the basic princples and ideals that made America a great country, starting with this principle:
With great freedom comes great responsibility. I agree.
There's nothing wrong with accumulating wealth in whatever legal manner one might care to.
There -is- something wrong with not using that wealth to help those less fortunate.


Note that the above statement is a moral position. That I hold this moral position in no way crreates an argument for me (or anyone else) to force this moral position on others.
 
But we know this is bull**** (the bold), as even the US adopted such a policy. Tariffs in United States history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia You might be able to "say" such nonsense, but there is nothing you can say to substantiate your tale.

No, this isn't bull****, as you so eloquently put it. The argument you are putting forth carries no weight. For instance, I could say that we are growing so much because of farm subsidies. It keeps farmers wealthy so that they can buy things from other people with the more money they get because the price of produce is higher. Of course, this ignores the fact that all people have to spend less on other things because they are forced to buy produce at these high prices. Get it? The broken window fallacy: once again it's like you have no idea about this simple economic concept. The same is true of protectionism. Now consumers are forced to buy higher prices consumer goods meaning they have less to spend on goods that they would have bought domestically anyway. Those companies that were doing well before the tarriff now get hurt because there will be less money for them because people now have to spend more on goods from these protected industries. Are we better off? Well obviously consumers are not, domestic companies that see no protection from the tarriff do not. The only people that benefit are the protected industries. But why should this be done? I'd say it shouldn't because people can get things cheaper from abroad, so most people see no benefit, and more people work in those protected industries instead of in those industries that were doing well before the tarriff. It's inefficient because you're going against what the market dictated, going against where consumers demanded it. By that simple fact it seems that it is not worth it.

And all of this is without mentioning that Brazil tried to do this to develop their computer industry but it never worked. Also, the US government did it because it was one of their 2 sources of revenue (tarriffs and excise taxes). Yes, they engaged in protectionism as well, but we also have to know that it was a substantial source of revenue for the government.
 
No, this isn't bull****, as you so eloquently put it. The argument you are putting forth carries no weight. For instance, I could say that we are growing so much because of farm subsidies. It keeps farmers wealthy so that they can buy things from other people with the more money they get because the price of produce is higher. Of course, this ignores the fact that all people have to spend less on other things because they are forced to buy produce at these high prices. Get it?

Please stay on subject, as we were discussing export tariffs. When a nation places a tariff on a specific good, it equalizes the cost so to allow infant domestic industry the ability to compete. The main goal of agriculture subsidies is to protect our capacity to internally feed our population, not simply provide income to farmers.

The broken window fallacy: once again it's like you have no idea about this simple economic concept.

I have yet to see you use the said concept properly.

The same is true of protectionism. Now consumers are forced to buy higher prices consumer goods meaning they have less to spend on goods that they would have bought domestically anyway. Those companies that were doing well before the tarriff now get hurt because there will be less money for them because people now have to spend more on goods from these protected industries. Are we better off? Well obviously consumers are not, domestic companies that see no protection from the tarriff do not. The only people that benefit are the protected industries.

I think you are missing my point, im not discussing the said subject to adore protectionism, only to paint the picture in the appropriate color. All developed nations used protectionism, in one form or another, to help grow infant industry. The US did the same during a period that gets the laissez faire label. I understand that it is inconvenient, however this is only an issue for ideologues.

But why should this be done? I'd say it shouldn't because people can get things cheaper from abroad, so most people see no benefit, and more people work in those protected industries instead of in those industries that were doing well before the tarriff. It's inefficient because you're going against what the market dictated, going against where consumers demanded it. By that simple fact it seems that it is not worth it.

Again, im not here to argue right vs wrong, only to depict what has transpired in reality. Export driven growth models do in fact benefit (during the start up phase) long term growth outlooks, as tacit knowledge can be harnessed to improve efficiency.

And all of this is without mentioning that Brazil tried to do this to develop their computer industry but it never worked. Also, the US government did it because it was one of their 2 sources of revenue (tarriffs and excise taxes). Yes, they engaged in protectionism as well, but we also have to know that it was a substantial source of revenue for the government.

Brazil tried to copy paste the Japanese/Korean model without taking into consideration market saturation and domestic demand. Being as computers were responsible for a considerable amount of productivity growth in the early 80's, it does seem that they missed out on a tremendous opportunity. Yet when we analyze natural resource advantages, protectionism surely benefited the ethanol fuel industry.
 
The US may be the largest market, but that doesnt mean it is the most profitable. If the US adds taxes to deliberately reduce the profits of companies that employ chepa labor, then those companies will make their profit elsewhere. This includes American companies as well.

Hog wash.. The US is the most profitable market simply because you guys spend like there is no tomorrow and could care less about conservation and saving. Plus your own markets are in some areas far from "free" and hence companies can generate massive profits that often are tax free because of your own tax laws.

No... YOU dont understand the whole 'problem'. The labor market no longer allows anyone to dictate wages; the US (and everyone else) is now part of that market. Anything that artificially raises the price of labor, be it taxation or union obstinace, does nothing but guarantee that the jpbs will go somewhere else.

No you dont understand it. You are talking theoretical trash.. yes in theory it is like you say, but that theory has actually never ever been tested in even a remotely modern society let alone in ancient times. There has always been taxes of some kind, always been regulations of some kind, there has always been a very strong part vs a weak part when we talk labour markets.. lords, kings, land owners, vs serfs and slaves. and so on.

Now in reality you cant do anything about it.. it is called a modern society. Unless you want to dismantle this, then you will have to adapt things to make it better for everyone and that is where import tariffs against offender nations come in. So do you want to dismantle the society that has been built up over 250 years+ just to get wages down to the level of the Chinese? If you think that the US market is not as profitable as others, just think what would happen if people did not have any money at all to spend because someone wanted to do a "pol pot" type scenario and set the country back into the stone age.

What will have to happen is that those who do not have a job that cannot be sent elsewhere will have to accept a lower standard of living until such a time that market forces balance out wages across the entire market.

Dude.. we are talking about a MASSIVE lower standard of living to even get remotely close to balance out wages. The wage differences are so huge that it is not even funny.. we talking several 100% difference and then of course there comes in the less regulation (read non) in China and India, where US companies can pollute like no tomorrow.

This situation can not and will never be solved by market forces because the market is not playing fair both in the US and in China. Hence the US has to protect it self from such aggression as does Europe.
 
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Hog wash.. The US is the most profitable market simply because you guys spend like there is no tomorrow...
At present. Your suggestion changes all that.

No you dont understand it. You are talking theoretical trash...
Oh. Well then, so are you.

Next.
 
What's your solution, ace?

Here's mine: We need to reject the consumerist and entitlement mindset that got us in hock to the tune of $54 trillion and get back to some of the basic ideas that made America a great country, starting with this principle:

The ultimate notion of right is that which tends to the universal good; and when one's acting in a certain manner has this tendency he has a right thus to act.

From An Inquiry Into the Original of Our Ideas of Beauty and Virtue, by Francis Hutcheson (1694-1746)

In practice, what this means is Americans need to support their communities and basic institutions, beginning with their families. We emphasize rights without responsibilities and selfish individualism to the detriment of us all. We need to understand that, regardless of our material status, race, sex, or age, we're all joined at the hip; if some of us go down, we all go down. Does this mean we need government to tell companies that they have to hire Americans at a certain wage or tax the rich into oblivion to support the indolent? No, but we shouldn't embrace the philosophy of Gordon Gekko, either. If average Americans can't support themselves on the peanuts their employers toss them, then they'll just have to adjust their spending habits accordingly while endeavoring to aid their families, neighbors, and local businesses. They can, for example: recycle goods or breathe new life into used merchandise found at the local thrift store, proceeds from which go to support a homeless or battered women's shelter; instead of going to Fantastic Sams, they can visit the neighborhood barber; instead of patronizing some chain restaurant, they can eat at a local family-owned restaurant where the food is probably cheaper, healthier, and tastes better anyway; instead of buying a bottled mocha frappuchino from Starbucks, they can visit a local coffee bar or roaster; instead of buying imported food tainted with who knows what from some supermarket chain acquired by Wall Street hotshots in an LBO, they can patronize a locally-owned organic foods market or buy directly from the local fisherman at the dock or the farmer at the farmers market. Unfortunately, the Wal-Marts, Best Buys, and Costcos might just have to peddle their merchandise somewhere else, or charge less for it like they have been of late. (Between you and me, I think they're doing this more out of necessity than any desire to help Americans "live better.")

If stockholders in major American corporations see their holdings decline in value as Americans face their "new normal" brought on by stagnant wages and overspending, then that's the way the capitalist cookie crumbles. And they shouldn't look to Asia or Europe to bail them out, either. "Decoupling" hasn't worked well in practice. Everybody, it seems, either still wants to sell their crap to Americans or they're broke, too.
 
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Wow Goldenboy, you know we were arguing about whether or not they were worthwhile, not about whether or not countries used them. Of course they have used them, I've just merely been arguing that they were not worthwhile and I explained why using the broken window fallacy.

You know, just because you don't like that I use the broken window fallacy to argue against you does not mean that I use it incorrectly. Protectionism is a great example of the broken window fallacy, so if you want to discuss protectionism that's fine, but don't change midway and say we were discussing whether or not countries have used them in their development.
 
Wow Goldenboy, you know we were arguing about whether or not they were worthwhile, not about whether or not countries used them. Of course they have used them, I've just merely been arguing that they were not worthwhile and I explained why using the broken window fallacy.

You know, just because you don't like that I use the broken window fallacy to argue against you does not mean that I use it incorrectly. Protectionism is a great example of the broken window fallacy, so if you want to discuss protectionism that's fine, but don't change midway and say we were discussing whether or not countries have used them in their development.

So you are saying that

Japan would have developed a large automobile industry, domestically owned without tariffs and various other government support programs, so would have South Korea. That both would have strong footholds in high tec industries, that South Korea would be a massive steel producer despite having very little in the way of domestic resources to supply the steel industry
 
So you are saying that

Japan would have developed a large automobile industry, domestically owned without tariffs and various other government support programs, so would have South Korea. That both would have strong footholds in high tec industries, that South Korea would be a massive steel producer despite having very little in the way of domestic resources to supply the steel industry

HAHAH yea, would never have happened... their tariff and legal system built companies like Sony and Samsung.
 
So you are saying that

Japan would have developed a large automobile industry, domestically owned without tariffs and various other government support programs, so would have South Korea. That both would have strong footholds in high tec industries, that South Korea would be a massive steel producer despite having very little in the way of domestic resources to supply the steel industry

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you're better off with free trade because you may not a country that is well-suited to the amount of production in a certain industry that you are trying to get with protectionism. Why would you produce 100% of the cars you need in your country when another country is 2x as efficient at it? I made an exception for war industries, but for consumer goods it's not necessary.
 
No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you're better off with free trade because you may not a country that is well-suited to the amount of production in a certain industry that you are trying to get with protectionism. Why would you produce 100% of the cars you need in your country when another country is 2x as efficient at it? I made an exception for war industries, but for consumer goods it's not necessary.

If you are trying to develop a country that has no industrial base into a country with an industrial base protectionism has been vital for the majority of countries.

Japan would be no where as wealthy as it is now with out protectism it had during the 60-90's, same goes for South Korea.
 
If you are trying to develop a country that has no industrial base into a country with an industrial base protectionism has been vital for the majority of countries.

Japan would be no where as wealthy as it is now with out protectism it had during the 60-90's, same goes for South Korea.

Comparative advantage. I think we've discussed this before.
 
Comparative advantage. I think we've discussed this before.

Yes we have

And you fail to understand that comparative advantage can change over time. Japan would not be a manufacturer and strong exporter without governmental directives to achieve it. Japan's government changed Japan's comparative advantage over time to direct Japan into being a country that produces high value goods and services.
 
Yes we have

And you fail to understand that comparative advantage can change over time. Japan would not be a manufacturer and strong exporter without governmental directives to achieve it. Japan's government changed Japan's comparative advantage over time to direct Japan into being a country that produces high value goods and services.

Here is my view on Comparative advantage

A typical example for the theory of Comparative advantage has been the production of Wheat versus the production of Cotton. The theory is fine when discussing a command economy, where a central authority will determine what is produced. However when the economy is free, comparative advantage fails. If a company is producing goods profitably, but not in a country that has the comparative advantage for that product, that company is not going to close up shop and transfer production to the country with the comparative advantage. Typically companies will only relocate or close up shop when they are no longer competitive in the production of that product. This is the competitive advantage, which will over time cause production to be maximized. Comparative advantage without competitive reasoning will fail to occur in a free market. This will mean the costs of production in the country with the “competitive advantage” will have to be low enough to ensure it also has a competitive advantage over production in other countries.

The reason Indonesia produces textiles and increasingly so while Canada’s textile industry is decreasing is not because of its comparative advantage, but because it has a competitive advantage in the production of textiles. It can produce textiles cheaper then can Canada. Should the cost of producing textiles in Indonesia rise above that in Canada, the production of textiles will transfer back to Canada, or seek another cheaper location.
Today we see the same issues in China, where labour costs are increasing in many of its eastern cities. This is changing the competitive advantage China has had in the production of many goods, and is causing some factories to close and relocate to other areas (including locations further west in China). Comparative advantage has little to do with the above, it is entirely based on competitive advantage.

Realistically comparative advantage only matters in the production of resources, which are based on physical limitations of production. For example, the production of wheat vs rice or Bananas vs oranges can use the theory of comparative advantage to maximize production of the goods. But when the limiting factor in production is capital rather than physical, comparative advantage fails as an effective theory
 
Yes we have

And you fail to understand that comparative advantage can change over time. Japan would not be a manufacturer and strong exporter without governmental directives to achieve it. Japan's government changed Japan's comparative advantage over time to direct Japan into being a country that produces high value goods and services.

Without trade barriers they would have developed the most desired industries that world consumers wanted them to develop. It may have been technology, may have been manufacturing. Either way, trade barriers are inefficient. It's like the government telling you where to work. Do you think that would be an efficient system?
 
Without trade barriers they would have developed the most desired industries that world consumers wanted them to develop. It may have been technology, may have been manufacturing. Either way, trade barriers are inefficient. It's like the government telling you where to work. Do you think that would be an efficient system?

American consumer's wouldnt care what Japan produced. To buy a product from Japan they would want that product to be price competitive with products from other countries.

As Japan did not have any expertise in manufacturing, electronics, it would be extremely unlikely that Japan would have developed the high tech industries that it has. Which could have left it doing low value manufacturing for decades. This could have left the living standard in Japan at levels far lower then it is today
 
American consumer's wouldnt care what Japan produced. To buy a product from Japan they would want that product to be price competitive with products from other countries.

As Japan did not have any expertise in manufacturing, electronics, it would be extremely unlikely that Japan would have developed the high tech industries that it has. Which could have left it doing low value manufacturing for decades. This could have left the living standard in Japan at levels far lower then it is today

Doubtful, since high tech industries would not remain in Japan unless there was good reason to be there. Japan actually had a very free market as compared to Europe after WWII which may explain its tremendous growth. New monetary and fiscal policies may explain their stagnant economy the past 20 years. Allowing capital to be invested in Japan is really what made that country grow like a weed, not protectionism. Remember that protectionism helps certain industries only at the expense of ALL of the other industries in that country.
 
Doubtful, since high tech industries would not remain in Japan unless there was good reason to be there. Japan actually had a very free market as compared to Europe after WWII which may explain its tremendous growth. New monetary and fiscal policies may explain their stagnant economy the past 20 years. Allowing capital to be invested in Japan is really what made that country grow like a weed, not protectionism. Remember that protectionism helps certain industries only at the expense of ALL of the other industries in that country.

Right, the high tech industry remains in Japan because of a highly skilled workforce that is not easily duplicated without great expense in another location. What I am stating is that Japan would not have developed high tech industries without governmentt support. There was no reason for Japan to develop one at the time it did. At most Japan would have been an assembler of high tech products like Malaysia was, it would not have been a developer of the products, it would have been a low value producer.

Japans economy has been stagnant because it has the massive debts and fallout from its bubble economy back in the 90s to work out, which has wiped out trillions of dollars in wealth, a declining population that is focusing on savings (which are being used poorly by the Japanese government or funding the carry trade) and cheaper compittion from South Korea and now China.

Japan's consumers were and are the ones to suffer paying higher prices for goods then otherwise, at the same time they benifited from higher wages from Japan becoming a high value producer
 
I said "our greed." Corporations spent the last almost thirty years seeking "economies" and "synergies" through outsourcing and layoffs and by paying the workers who were left a small fraction of what they paid executive "talent." Collectively, the serfs (working stiffs) took on a consumerist mindset in which they never saved an acorn their lords (corporate masters) tossed them. For many of us among the more affluent, it was all about the here and the now: the bigger SUV; the house in the burbs with the hot tub and the wet bar that were the envy of Mom and Dad; the cruises to Mexico and the Caribbean--all paid for with borrowed money. But no problem--saving was for chumps; they'd make it all up in the stock market or by selling their homes to greater fools or, as a last resort, by taking out a HELOC against their home equity.

Investment banks weren't satisfied with the incomes they made helping companies raise capital by selling stocks and bonds. They set up M&A departments so they could advise the "talent" on the best way to achieve those "synergies" and "efficiencies," usually by advising the "talent" to borrow huge sums of money from the few chumps who actually dared to use banks as a place to save money. The "talent" would pay for the "deal" later by selling off pieces in fits and starts. If some people had to lose their jobs during the adjustment process, well, too bad; that's just the way the Darwinian cookie crumbled. The investment bankers decided they could make even more money by creating and selling esoteric derivatives--LEAPS and swaps and forwards and backwards and upside downs--that even they didn't properly understand. They set up proprietary trading departments to buy and sell securities at speeds and volumes that would make a craps player at Caesars wince. Then the commercial and retail banks saw the money being made and decided they wanted in on the action, so they lobbied Congress to get rid of Glass-Steagall.

Unfortunately, things didn't quite work out the way people expected. Home prices cratered, real incomes stagnated, and, while the executive "talent" took a bigger chunk of the pie, they couldn't make the S&P 500 budge in ten years. So much to adding to shareholder value. Meanwhile, the debt hangover has left us with 54 trillion reasons why demand will be flat and the word "stock" will be a dirty word for years to come.

This unemployment thing goes way beyond labels like "conservative" or "liberal." We're all to blame in one way or another.

This explanation makes by far the most sense. Its very similar to the one I have heard on PBS.
Now for the solution..
Another poll?
 
Right, the high tech industry remains in Japan because of a highly skilled workforce that is not easily duplicated without great expense in another location. What I am stating is that Japan would not have developed high tech industries without governmentt support. There was no reason for Japan to develop one at the time it did. At most Japan would have been an assembler of high tech products like Malaysia was, it would not have been a developer of the products, it would have been a low value producer.

Japans economy has been stagnant because it has the massive debts and fallout from its bubble economy back in the 90s to work out, which has wiped out trillions of dollars in wealth, a declining population that is focusing on savings (which are being used poorly by the Japanese government or funding the carry trade) and cheaper compittion from South Korea and now China.

Japan's consumers were and are the ones to suffer paying higher prices for goods then otherwise, at the same time they benifited from higher wages from Japan becoming a high value producer

So if protectionism is the reason, why didn't it work for Brazil?
 
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