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Is Taxation Slavery?

Is Taxation Slavery?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 16.7%

  • No

    Votes: 53 73.6%

  • Other (Explain)

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Total voters
    72
the makeout hobo said:
I heavily disagree with the concept of corporate personhood, so i would disagree with your statement.
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Why should a group of people as a voluntary contractual collective be entitled to less rights under the Constitution than an individual person? Apparently in your view exercising your right of free association will entail the restriction of the rest of your rights. Do you hold the same view with regards to Unions and various other special interests groups; such as, the ACLU or the NAACP or ACORN?
 
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Agent Ferris said:
That's a load of ****ing bull****, that's like saying that if I stick a gun in your face and tell me to give me all of your cash that you are giving me that money voluntarily. The state takes taxes by force that is the exact opposite of voluntary.
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This is why it's very hard to take you people seriously.
 
Groucho said:
Are you kidding? I lived through the Reagan years and the Bush years and never once claimed that I was a slave.

That mindset is just, well, silly.
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God help us all. You and I agree on something, but not everything. Then again, the slave part may be coming. I know what the Black Panthers are saying about white people, and how they want to get even for all the mistreatment of their ancestors, done by our ancestors.
 
Agent Ferris said:
How big does the gang have to be in order for the theft to become legitimate in your opinion?
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Size doesn't matter!

Seriously, man, are you really that obtuse? You belong to an organization that has dues. You get to vote on what those dues should be and what they should be spent on. You have a say in those dues. Don't like them? Go join another group. Warning: they all have dues, and some give you no say whatsoever in what they are.

You may disagree with where your taxes are spent (as we ALL do) and you may disagree in how much they should be (as we ALL do) but that doesn't make it theft.

This is America! It's a democracy! We have a say!

If you don't like it here in America, and if you hate democracy that much, you can always leave.
 
Groucho said:
Are you kidding? I lived through the Reagan years and the Bush years and never once claimed that I was a slave.

That mindset is just, well, silly.
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You're one in a million. I wonder if Obama will share your view? Then again, there is a bright side. That will take the heat off Bush as Obama blames his woes on the Republican controlled House and Senate.
 
Agent Ferris said:
Ya because voluntary contractual agreements for goods and services doesn't happen every single day. :roll:
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That is nothing but a silly exaggeration of my statements.

Municipalities and governments provide a service for the people. A service that takes some of the burden off of us as citizens.

The private sector has proven time and time again it can't be trusted. Of course the government is no less guilty, but to much less a degree. The government is not motivated by profit above all else.

Amazing how libertarians are willing to trust people to do the right thing all the time. History as shown this will never happen, unless maybe you live in the land of faeries and cute little bunny's that talk.
 
Groucho said:
Size doesn't matter!
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So then you support theft.

Seriously, man, are you really that obtuse? You belong to an organization that has dues.
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I never voluntarily agreed to be in this organization.

You get to vote on what those dues should be and what they should be spent on.
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No actually I don't, I get to vote for those who get to vote on what those dues should be and what they should be spent on; furthermore, I never entered into contractual agreement granting them the authority to confiscate those dues through the use of force or any other means.

You have a say in those dues. Don't like them? Go join another group. Warning: they all have dues, and some give you no say whatsoever in what they are.
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This is a lie, if I purchase property, work from home, do not partake of any of this organizations goods or services I will still be liable to pay those dues, and be bound by this organizations regulations simply because my property lies within arbitrary borders which this illegitimate involuntary organization has designated as its territory. The social contract was not entered into voluntarily and any contract which is not voluntary is null and void.

You may disagree with where your taxes are spent (as we ALL do) and you may disagree in how much they should be (as we ALL do) but that doesn't make it theft.

This is America! It's a democracy! We have a say!
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Let's try a little thought experiment, 5 men come up to you on the street, they put it to a vote if they will confiscate your wallet and even allow you to vote as well, the vote comes 5-1 aye that they will confiscate your wallet, now how exactly is that not theft?

If you don't like it here in America, and if you hate democracy that much, you can always leave.
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Collective tyranny is a tyranny the same as any other, I don't hate America, I hate the state, that goes for all states, the state is an illegitimate entity no matter if it is a liberal democracy or a totalitarian dictatorship, both violate the right to individual sovereignty and the non-aggression principle on a daily basis.
 
Groucho said:
I am absolutely astounded by posts like these. They almost seem anti-American and anti-democratic, because what they're saying is "If other people vote to do things I disagree with, then they are enslaving me."
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Your response is not supported by anything that I said.

Involuntary servitude has a definition; being forced to work for the direct benefit of others fits into it. Period. Yoiu liking it or not liking it, agreeing with it or not agreeing with it - doesnt matter.
 
Blackdog said:
The private sector has proven time and time again it can't be trusted. Of course the government is no less guilty, but to much less a degree. The government is not motivated by profit above all else.
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Actually, I think the private sector is equally as guilty as the government. However, it helps the people when the government provides options of markets the private sector also provides. This helps keep the private sector honest, as any dishonesty on their part means people will not spend their money on them and will make more use of government services.
 
Agent Ferris said:
That's a load of ****ing bull****, that's like saying that if I stick a gun in your face and tell me to give me all of your cash that you are giving me that money voluntarily. The state takes taxes by force that is the exact opposite of voluntary.
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The difference is that you have the right to choose your representatives, and through them influence the law. You think the tax rate is too high? Vote in people that will lower the tax rate. Try to put an initiative on the ballot. Write letters. Stage a demonstration. Donate to a candidate that supports your views. It's called a republic, and it has legitimacy through your votes. would you rather have any other form of government?
 
Groucho said:
Damn that infernal democracy! How dare the elected officials do what people who elected them ask them to do!
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So... in a democracy, amythig goes so long as the majority support it?
 
Agent Ferris said:
Why should a group of people as a voluntary contractual collective be entitled to less rights under the Constitution than an individual person? Apparently in your view exercising your right of free association will entail the restriction of the rest of your rights. Do you hold the same view with regards to Unions and various other special interests groups; such as, the ACLU or the NAACP or ACORN?
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Yes I have the same view for unions and the ACLU, etc. I believe that while individuals can exercize their rights AS individuals, being part of a corporation (in the general sense) doesn't give you special rights as a collective.
 
Blackdog said:
That is nothing but a silly exaggeration of my statements.

Municipalities and governments provide a service for the people. A service that takes some of the burden off of us as citizens.
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And by service you mean an elaborate legalized racketeering scheme.

The private sector has proven time and time again it can't be trusted.
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The private sector is anything but private. We live under a corporatist system of state capitalism not a free market.

Of course the government is no less guilty, but to much less a degree.
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Actually the state is the biggest offender.

The government is not motivated by profit above all else.
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That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. The state is a for profit monopoly with guns and the self designated authority to use them to coerce the individual into paying their annual protection money.

Amazing how libertarians are willing to trust people to do the right thing all the time. History as shown this will never happen, unless maybe you live in the land of faeries and cute little bunny's that talk.
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Amazing how statists are willing to trust the state to do the right thing even though history has shown that this will never happen and in fact bends them over the counter on a daily basis without even the courtesy of a reach around.
 
the makeout hobo said:
If I have a say in the policies in the gang, it's not theft.
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I already said that the gang gave you a vote of whether or not to steal your wallet, the vote came out 5-1 for strealing your wallet, and you're asserting that this isn't theft? :roll:
 
MaggieD said:
No. Paying taxes is voluntary....as long as you're willing to accept the consequences of not paying.
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Ah yes... following the law is optional and voluntary -- the ides that you -have- to do so is just silly.
:roll:

Given your argument, above, slavery never existed as every one of those supposed slaves always had a choice to be a slave, or not , so long as they were willing to accept the consequences of their choice.
 
the makeout hobo said:
Yes I have the same view for unions and the ACLU, etc. I believe that while individuals can exercize their rights AS individuals, being part of a corporation (in the general sense) doesn't give you special rights as a collective.
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If the rights of the whole are being violated then how can the rights of the individual within the whole not be violated as well? Basically you are asserting that exercising your right of free association automatically means that you lose the rest of your rights.
 
Agent Ferris said:
I already said that the gang gave you a vote of whether or not to steal your wallet, the vote came out 5-1 for strealing your wallet, and you're asserting that this isn't theft? :roll:
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The difference is that you have the choice to leave America and go to another country, you have the choice to change the rules of the "gang", etc. I challenge you to show me any political system that has worked better, since you obviously dislike Democratic Republics.
 
Agent Ferris said:
If the rights of the whole are being violated then how can the rights of the individual within the whole not be violated as well? Basically you are asserting that exercising your right of free association automatically means that you lose the rest of your rights.
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No. What I'm saying is that a group shouldn't get special rights JUST for being a group.
 
You know, I would just like to point out that after the American Revolution, the United States was governed by the Articles of Confederation, which did not grant the Confederation Congress the power of taxation. This was seen as a major flaw of the Articles, and was why the Constitution was written to explicitly give Congress the power of taxation.
 
the makeout hobo said:
The difference is that you have the right to choose your representatives, and through them influence the law.
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I never agreed to such a system

You think the tax rate is too high? Vote in people that will lower the tax rate. Try to put an initiative on the ballot. Write letters. Stage a demonstration. Donate to a candidate that supports your views.
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Again I never agreed to such a system, why would any sane individual relinquish their right of self ownership to a group of other men?

It's called a republic, and it has legitimacy through your votes. would you rather have any other form of government?
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I would rather have no government in which the individual not the state hold the power of sovereign.
 
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the makeout hobo said:
The difference is that you have the choice to leave America and go to another country, you have the choice to change the rules of the "gang", etc. I challenge you to show me any political system that has worked better, since you obviously dislike Democratic Republics.
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Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the rest.
- Winston Churchill
 
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