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Republican vs. Democracy Voting

Republican vs. Democracy Voting

  • Republican

    Votes: 8 40.0%
  • Democracy

    Votes: 7 35.0%
  • Other (Explain)

    Votes: 5 25.0%

  • Total voters
    20
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I have a headache and can't focus on this right now but it's interesting and I'll jump in on the debate tomorrow sometime.
 
Look guys. I do not want to derail ANOTHER thread towards the natural rights debate. I will continue the debate I am having with Ikari in that particular thread and link to it and invite you all to join.

I ain't doing natural rights buddy. :2razz:

I know for a fact we'll never agree, this is policy debate for me.
 
I think it's pretty bad.
I mean the government is allowed to lie to you, while you're not always allowed to lie to them.

Eh, I don't think it's as bad as that. And unfortunately, lying has become a relative and ambiguous term when discussing the government.


I understand they affect others but why are we stringing failure along.
It makes no sense.

And I agree with reforms. But not in voting.

The feds or states have the authority and the right, to do so.
Just like a college or state that accepts federal funds, individuals who accept these funds must also follow rules that would normally be unconstitutional because they are actively seeking out support and accepting it.

The problem is that a lot of what we do is based on a "maintence" plan, rather than a "progressive" plan. The latter requires more work in the short term, of course, and considering the general inefficiency of things... and general laziness, this is a reason why nothing changes.
 
I ain't doing natural rights buddy. :2razz:

I know for a fact we'll never agree, this is policy debate for me.

Those debates take so much of my time, anyway. I end up only posting on one thread, which I don't like.
 
Owning property requires money... to purchase it, to maintain it, to pay taxes on it. It is also a choice as to whether or not you own property. One can be relatively well off and choose to not own property. If you are talking about a system based on merit, owning property does not automatically make you worth more than one who does not. There are MANY issues that create value.

Do you think property owners would have a tax on the ownership of their property? Nope, which history proves this point. Property taxes didn't come into being until after voting had opened up to all white males. The first property taxes were levied in the 1830's to pay for public schools.

All rights do not stem from ownership. I have no idea where you would get that idea.

Then I suggest you read up on the history of the revolution and specificially a book written by Thomas Paine called Common Sense. The ideas are ensconced in the Declaration of Independence and later put into law under the Bill of Rights.

Since the government is created by the people and of the people, rights are created of the people and by the people. This is where rights stem from.

That's a twisted way of looking at it, but since governments are instituted among men by the consent of the governed they are duty bound to stop any tyranny by the government. This right to alter and abolish the government is inherent in every single person. That's what the Declaration of Independence says, so the rights come from ownership of a person's body.
 
Eh, I don't think it's as bad as that. And unfortunately, lying has become a relative and ambiguous term when discussing the government.

Don't really want to derail this one.
So it's best to let it be. :mrgreen:

And I agree with reforms. But not in voting.

If the reforms applied to TANF were also applied to other safety net programs, that would be a step in the right direction.

Add to that an employment requirement in approximately 6 months.

The problem is that a lot of what we do is based on a "maintence" plan, rather than a "progressive" plan. The latter requires more work in the short term, of course, and considering the general inefficiency of things... and general laziness, this is a reason why nothing changes.

For it to be progressive, it would have to implement long term behavior changes.
 
Those debates take so much of my time, anyway. I end up only posting on one thread, which I don't like.

It ends up being a quasi religious debate because it is all based on philosophy.
Unless I have a gun to your head, you're not changing your general philosophy. ;)
 
It ends up being a quasi religious debate because it is all based on philosophy.
Unless I have a gun to your head, you're not changing your general philosophy. ;)

Interestingly enough, I pretty much NEVER bring religion into the natural rights debate, and in my debate with Ikari, he didn't either. But you are correct. My general philosophy isn't going anywhere.
 
Interestingly enough, I pretty much NEVER bring religion into the natural rights debate, and in my debate with Ikari, he didn't either. But you are correct. My general philosophy isn't going anywhere.

I don't do religious debates.
Not worth it and kind of rude to crap on another person's religious belief system, with the exception of scientology.
 
Don't really want to derail this one.
So it's best to let it be. :mrgreen:

True.



If the reforms applied to TANF were also applied to other safety net programs, that would be a step in the right direction.

I agree.

Add to that an employment requirement in approximately 6 months.

Not sure I would want to be that rigid. I get what you are saying, though.



For it to be progressive, it would have to implement long term behavior changes.

Agreed. And this is the problem. Too many folks looking for the quick fix.
 
You know who got us our freedom from Great Britain? It was the wealthy land owners like James Madison and Patrick Henry. It wasn't the bottom feeders of their day that got us our freedom.

The so called "bottom feeders" died by British bullets and artillary fighting for our freedom.
 
The so called "bottom feeders" died by British bullets and artillary fighting for our freedom.

As did many of the wealthy people, but it was the wealthy ones that got us to throw off the shackles of British rule. Being in the military, there is no such thing as a rich or poor man, but a man. The service looks at the merits of the individual instead.
 
As did many of the wealthy people, but it was the wealthy ones that got us to throw off the shackles of British rule. Being in the military, there is no such thing as a rich or poor man, but a man. The service looks at the merits of the individual instead.

Yet you make distinctions on which individuals get to vote based on mere possessions, which inevitably does carve out a HUGE distinction between rich man and poor man, so most assuredly there was, and there would be a huge distinction between a rich man and a poor man in the military.

We do not have unlimited land that can be just staked out by claiming it anymore, why should a rural recluse in the back woods of West Virginia who along with 6 other cousins inherited a dirt cheap plot of land his trailer sits on from his peepaw have the right to vote while a teacher and a fireman who cannot afford the price of property in NYC would not have the same opportunity?
 
Yet you make distinctions on which individuals get to vote based on mere possessions, which inevitably does carve out a HUGE distinction between rich man and poor man, so most assuredly there was, and there would be a huge distinction between a rich man and a poor man in the military.

We do not have unlimited land that can be just staked out by claiming it anymore, why should a rural recluse in the back woods of West Virginia who along with 6 other cousins inherited a dirt cheap plot of land his trailer sits on from his peepaw have the right to vote while a teacher and a fireman who cannot afford the price of property in NYC would not have the same opportunity?

If the fireman and teacher fail to own property in NYC they do have a choice of where they can live at by moving to a place that does allow them to buy land. The inheritance of land is a red herring since the original intent of this country was to prohibit class warfare. You're using the inheritance thing as a form of class warfare. Besides it's their family's property and they are free to dispose of it as they wish.
 
If the fireman and teacher fail to own property in NYC they do have a choice of where they can live at by moving to a place that does allow them to buy land. The inheritance of land is a red herring since the original intent of this country was to prohibit class warfare. You're using the inheritance thing as a form of class warfare. Besides it's their family's property and they are free to dispose of it as they wish.

It is not a red herring, we are no longer a largely rural agrarian soceity with land to be had for all, we live in cites, our property is all ultimately on loan from a bank, our soceity lives largely in urban areas and we do not own our land, it is not reasonable, nor rationale to base our voting rights on land ownership, that is the class warfare, a landowner is a higher class citizen, regardless of "contributions" to our society, just because they have property they are of higher status? Of course I am going to use the relative contributions of people living in different environments to highlight how this is not an effective system, nor an effective idea.

This concept is regressive, and would ultimately lead to a disproportionate representation based on what areas had lower property values, this is no red herring, this is an innate flaw in your concept, our nation has changed in the last 235 years, land is a not anywhere even close to a viable barometer for the right to vote, it is mostly owned by banks and business interests, aside from people who are sedentary and have remained on their familial plot of land for generations, we do not own our land, and just a desire to pick up and move, or to change neighborhoods or to attempt to move up in our soceity and relying on taking out a loan to do so would mean potentially sacrificing the right to vote.

Talk about tyranny of the few, your idea is horrifically dated, and horrifically flawed
 
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I'd buy 10 acres, split it up into 1 square inch plots and give them away to every poor, muslim, hispanic, black, gay, or highly educated person in the country just to piss you off.
 
I'd buy 10 acres, split it up into 1 square inch plots and give them away to every poor, muslim, hispanic, black, gay, or highly educated person in the country just to piss you off.

I had been entertaining that idea since I first started reading this thread, 1" square plots of land for all!!!
 
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It is not a red herring, we are no longer a largely rural agrarian soceity with land to be had for all, we live in cites, our property is all ultimately on loan from a bank, our soceity lives largely in urban areas and we do not own our land, it is not reasonable, nor rationale to base our voting rights on land ownership, that is the class warfare, a landowner is a higher class citizen, regardless of "contributions" to our society, just because they have property they are of higher status? Of course I am going to use the relative contributions of people living in different environments to highlight how this is not an effective system, nor an effective idea.

This concept is regressive, and would ultimately lead to a disproportionate representation based on what areas had lower property values, this is no red herring, this is an innate flaw in your concept, our nation has changed in the last 235 years, land is a not anywhere even close to a viable barometer for the right to vote, it is mostly owned by banks and business interests, aside from people who are sedentary and have remained on their familial plot of land for generations, we do not own our land, and just a desire to pick up and move, or to change neighborhoods or to attempt to move up in our soceity and relying on taking out a loan to do so would mean potentially sacrificing the right to vote.

Talk about tyranny of the few, your idea is horrifically dated, and horrifically flawed

If you think that is flawed then explain to me why the US government is the biggest landholder out of anyone in the non-13 original states? There is land to be owned, but the federal government refuses to release it like it was supposed to under the Louisiana Purchase. So yes, being a property owner is still a valid barometer.
 
If you think that is flawed then explain to me why the US government is the biggest landholder out of anyone in the non-13 original states? There is land to be owned, but the federal government refuses to release it like it was supposed to under the Louisiana Purchase. So yes, being a property owner is still a valid barometer.

It is flawed in part because you are wanting to drive everyone out of established population centers and habitated areas, and push them out to rural areas, to accomplish what? Are we going to abandon our cities, have mass rushes for land claims, dole out our protected lands and our national parks so that we can live in the middle of nowhere and be able to vote (btw... you do know a lot of our land is basically uninhabitable right? you know deserts, mountains, badlands, swamps and what have you? -this a considerable part of what the government owns) Sorry this pesky thing happened while you were trapped in past centuries, we had an industrial revolution, we became became more and more urbanized as we exchanged our agrarian ways for industrial.

The desirable land was snatched up, we built these things called cities where many of us happen to live and work in now, and in the process we enhanced and developed this land and created this thing we like to refer to as an infrastructure that enables us to live on this land more effectively and does crazy things like magically whisks away our **** and allows for high population densities that has been integral to our status as a world powerhouse and is a crucial component that distinquishes us from what we now refer to colloquially as "third world countries"

Our nation is what is today due to urbanization, and although there are numerous other reasons it is our urbanization that ultimately destroys any semblance of feasibility a contemporary implementation of your idea may have even had in the first place.
 
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It is flawed in part because you are wanting to drive everyone out of established population centers and habitated areas, and push them out to rural areas, to accomplish what? Are we going to abandon our cities, have mass rushes for land claims, dole out our protected lands and our national parks so that we can live in the middle of nowhere and be able to vote (btw... you do know a lot of our land is basically uninhabitable right? you know deserts, mountains, badlands, swamps and what have you? -this a considerable part of what the government owns) Sorry this pesky thing happened while you were trapped in past centuries, we had an industrial revolution, we became became more and more urbanized as we exchanged our agrarian ways for industrial.

The desirable land was snatched up, we built these things called cities where many of us happen to live and work in now, and in the process we enhanced and developed this land and created this thing we like to refer to as an infrastructure that enables us to live on this land more effectively and does crazy things like magically whisks away our **** and allows for high population densities that has been integral to our status as a world powerhouse and is a crucial component that distinquishes us from what we now refer to colloquially as "third world countries"

Our nation is what is today due to urbanization, and although there are numerous other reasons it is our urbanization that ultimately destroys any semblance of feasibility a contemporary implementation of your idea may have even had in the first place.

If that was the case then why are millions of prime acreage in the western states left in the hands of the government? Also, I said property owners not land owners. One can own condos and it is a type of property ownership. The republican system can work in today's modern age.
 
If that was the case then why are millions of prime acreage in the western states left in the hands of the government? Also, I said property owners not land owners. One can own condos and it is a type of property ownership. The republican system can work in today's modern age.

Well that condo is built on this thing called land.. and part of its cost is also the land it is built on., but alright, fine... property ownership and the equivocation game.. fun!

The bum in the alley owns the shirt on his back, it is his property.. he can vote, there over and done with.

Want to equivocate any more?
 
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A man has a good job. He works every day, pays taxes, contributes to society. He does not own, but prefers to rent, instead. Does he get to vote?

I would submit, that his rental fees subsidize his landlord's property... maintenance and taxes. Therefore, though not an official property owner, he too can vote.
 
Well that condo is built on this thing called land.. and part of its cost is also the land it is built on., but alright, fine... property ownership and the equivocation game.. fun!

The bum in the alley owns the shirt on his back, it is his property.. he can vote, there over and done with.

Want to equivocate any more?

Is his shirt classified as real property under the law? Nope, but condos sure are.
 
A man has a good job. He works every day, pays taxes, contributes to society. He does not own, but prefers to rent, instead. Does he get to vote?

I would submit, that his rental fees subsidize his landlord's property... maintenance and taxes. Therefore, though not an official property owner, he too can vote.

Since he rents instead of buying then no he shouldn't have the ability to vote.
 
Since he rents instead of buying then no he shouldn't have the ability to vote.

His rent contributes to the upkeep and taxation of the property where he resides. Without that money, the landlord would no longer be able to afford that property, and, without that added income that it generates, he might have to sell his property, and also become a renter. You are overlooking the contribution that he makes to society on many levels, and the impact that what he does has on others. Your proposal is doing precisely what I said. Creating a plutocracy. It's a ridiculous and short-sighted proposal that would result in tyranny.
 
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