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Should the words "under God" be removed from the pledge?

Should the words "under god" be removed from the pledge?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 63.2%

  • No

    Votes: 14 36.8%
  • Total voters
    38
Mell said:
If Christmas was replaced with 'winter solstace celebrations' or something like that, I would certainly have no problem with it. In fact, id be relieved at yet another sign that religion is been taken out of our main stream culture. People always resist change though, no matter what the logical arguments for it are.
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Religion is good for the public.
 
Fiddytree said:
Religion is good for the public.
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It is not. It is one of the biggest sources of conflict in society and the world, or at least is regularly used as and excuse for conflict. It even conflicts with the lawmakers, and resists progress. If religion had its way, it would drag us back 200 years in civilization.
 
You are aware it was theirs first, right? Christmas was tacked on to a pre-existing celebration.

Mell said:
If Christmas was replaced with 'winter solstace celebrations' or something like that, I would certainly have no problem with it. In fact, id be relieved at yet another sign that religion is been taken out of our main stream culture. People always resist change though, no matter what the logical arguments for it are.
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ads1981 said:
You are aware it was theirs first, right? Christmas was tacked on to a pre-existing celebration.
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Yeah, I do know that. Profitting from the popularity of paganism is a relentlessly annoying habit of Christianity. Poachers are what the Christians are. Whatever is popular in society, they will try to make it look like their invention. They used to get away with it, until widespread education hindered them.
 
Mell said:
It is not. It is one of the biggest sources of conflict in society and the world, or at least is regularly used as and excuse for conflict. It even conflicts with the lawmakers, and resists progress. If religion had its way, it would drag us back 200 years in civilization.
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Steadily removing religion in the name of human progress is stupid. It will not have your intended side-effects. It is a liberal fantasy.

Yeah, I do know that. Profitting from the popularity of paganism is a relentlessly annoying habit of Christianity. Poachers are what the Christians are. Whatever is popular in society, they will try to make it look like their invention. They used to get away with it, until widespread education hindered them.
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It sped up unification. It was necessary.
 
Fiddytree said:
Steadily removing religion in the name of human progress is stupid. It will not have your intended side-effects. It is a liberal fantasy.
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Nonsense! If bible laws were legislative law in the US these days, then the US would be similiar to how Saudi Arabia is today. People simply wont stand for that these days anywhere. It is being heavily resisted in the countries is still does happen in.

As for the unification and such, this is incidental and not really a product of religious philosophy.
 
You need not run a theocracy to use religion constructively, to use it for good. It helps keep people with a somewhat similar vision of mankind's purpose, teaches them good moral lessons, and fulfills that common desire of mankind to feel that there is something else out there more important than our own daily lives.

At any rate, with the "Under God" portion of the pledge has also been with us long enough to be considered current culture, our current identity. Removing it could be legitimately seen as an attack on our history, our lives. It was not there before, but that is the problem legislators and policy makers deal with. Hence why it would be counterproductive to remove it. It has done us little to no harm.
 
Fiddytree said:
At any rate, with the "Under God" portion of the pledge has also been with us long enough to be considered current culture, our current identity. Removing it could be legitimately seen as an attack on our history, our lives. It was not there before, but that is the problem legislators and policy makers deal with. Hence why it would be counterproductive to remove it. It has done us little to no harm.
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I dont see why we should all have to put of with things, just because they have been around for a long time. And, history could be considered an attack on those who have not had a fair role in creating it. The Christians and Christianity should get out of politics.
 
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Mell said:
I dont see why we should all have to put of with things, just because they have been around for a long time. And, history could be considered an attack on those who have not had a fair role in creating it. The Christians and Christianity should get out of politics.
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It is not offensive to "many" at all. It is offensive to a relatively vocal few. You do not throw away part of our heritage lightly. Unlike Germany who hides history it does not like, we embrace it as part of where we came from.
 
Mell said:
I dont see why we should all have to put of with things, just because they have been around for a long time. And, history could be considered an attack on those who have not had a fair role in creating it. The Christians and Christianity should get out of politics.
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It is not merely a matter of putting up with things just because it has been around for a while. It has been around with us for long enough that it is apart of our identity; the majority of the time, working for us rather than against us.

Few could understand how the removal of religion would dramatically reduce violence. I would be among those who finds your sentiments rather naive. Perhaps along the way, such sentiments would resemble Luddites-destroying what they dislike, but without any conception for what they would use to replace that which they destroy.
 
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Mell said:
I dont see why we should all have to put of with things, just because they have been around for a long time. And, history could be considered an attack on those who have not had a fair role in creating it. The Christians and Christianity should get out of politics.
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Are Christians and Christianity not worthy of representation? Does being a Christian preclude you from having a voice in the governance of your own country? Or Muslim, Jew, or Hindu, for that matter? Are only atheists qualified to govern the poor, ignorant religious masses?
 
Fiddytree said:
It is not merely a matter of putting up with things just because it has been around for a while. It has been around with us for long enough that it is apart of our identity; the majority of the time, working for us rather than against us.

Few could understand how the removal of religion would dramatically reduce violence. I would be among those who finds your sentiments rather naive. Perhaps along the way, such sentiments would resemble Luddites-destroying what they dislike, but without any conception for what they would use to replace that which they destroy.
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You use the word 'Us' way too liberally.

As for the second paragraph, something as sweeping and judgemental as that is not worth responsing to. Few could understand eh? Well, believe that about anyone who does not agree with you, if you insist. I wont be responding to any more of that type of dogmatic nonsense in this thread though.
 
There was always that difficult discussion about the Christian's role in politics, before and during America. Regardless, I came to the conclusion that I may disagree with some of "the agenda" (if it can be called one), but it is silly to remove their voice-as we benefit from it.
 
mac said:
Are Christians and Christianity not worthy of representation?
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As human beings they are worthy of political representation, like all other human beings are. But, religion and being religious should be optional, and should never be compulsary or included in things like the pledge.
 
Mell said:
You use the word 'Us' way too liberally.

As for the second paragraph, something as sweeping and judgemental as that is not worth responsing to. Few could understand eh? Well, believe that about anyone who does not agree with you, if you insist. I wont be responding to any more of that type of dogmatic nonsense in this thread though.
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Your posts were also sweeping, judgmental, and dogmatic nonsense.
 
Fiddytree said:
There was always that difficult discussion about the Christian's role in politics, before and during America. Regardless, I came to the conclusion that I may disagree with some of "the agenda" (if it can be called one), but it is silly to remove their voice-as we benefit from it.
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When Christians get a self righteous and dogmatic, this should be ignored.
 
So does every interest group. Why isolate Christians, who constitute a great overwhelming majority of voters? Perhaps not in a specific political platform, but at least in an identity, they are Christians. Their voice does count, and has a significant impulse for America.
 
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Fiddytree said:
Your posts were also sweeping, judgmental, and dogmatic nonsense.
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My posts do not support a sexist, anti gay, child sexual abuse cover up... organistation such as Christianity. That can hardly be described as judgemental, when it is in fact the truth, unlike what the Christians spout as their version of the truth. Christianity is an offensive, disgusting corrupt... cult and just because it was developed when the public was generally too uneducated and unsophisticated to understand what it was teaching, does not mean it should continue now.

Anyway, this is a political site, to discuss politics. Surely, there are some Christian sites somewhere on the fringes of the internet where you can find others who are interested in mulling over your beliefs with you. I am not interested in this rubbish, except to say it should be taken out of the political area.
 
Fiddytree said:
Perhaps not in a specific political platform, but at least in an identity, they are Christians. Their voice does count, and has a significant impulse for America.
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The Christian identity would not bother me, if they respected the rights of others, and if they were not hypocrites. But, their propaganda like all propaganda should be kept for their own entertainment, rather than used to try to influence in a political way.
 
Mell said:
My posts do not support a sexist, anti gay, child sexual abuse cover up... organistation such as Christianity. That can hardly be described as judgemental, when it is in fact the truth, unlike what the Christians spout as their version of the truth. Christianity is an offensive, disgusting corrupt... cult and just because it was developed when the public was generally too uneducated and unsophisticated to understand what it was teaching, does not mean it should continue now.

Anyway, this is a political site, to discuss politics. Surely, there are some Christian sites somewhere on the fringes of the internet where you can find others who are interested in mulling over your beliefs with you. I am not interested in this rubbish, except to say it should be taken out of the political area.
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Your enormous bias against an entire religion is clouding the fact that your arguments are mostly political.
 
Mell said:
My posts do not support a sexist, anti gay, child sexual abuse cover up... organistation such as Christianity.
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Talk about your sweeping generalization.

You don't know much about Christianity I guess.

Mell said:
That can hardly be described as judgemental, when it is in fact the truth, unlike what the Christians spout as their version of the truth. Christianity is an offensive, disgusting corrupt... cult and just because it was developed when the public was generally too uneducated and unsophisticated to understand what it was teaching, does not mean it should continue now.
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I take that back. I think bigot would cover it better.

Mell said:
Anyway, this is a political site, to discuss politics. Surely, there are some Christian sites somewhere on the fringes of the internet where you can find others who are interested in mulling over your beliefs with you. I am not interested in this rubbish, except to say it should be taken out of the political area.
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You have got to be ****ing kidding me?
 
Fiddytree said:
Your enormous bias against an entire religion is clouding the fact that your arguments are mostly political.
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Yes, I know my arguments are political. And, yes I am biased against religion for good reason. I dont know why you even bothered to make a post, just to point out the obvious, and I dont know why I am bothering to respond to it.

I suppose, those who are religious are proven to be less intelligent than others, and this has to be taken into account, when being bombarded by their idea of reasonable discussion.
 
Mell said:
Yes, I know my arguments are political. And, yes I am biased against religion for good reason. I dont know why you even bothered to make a post, just to point out the obvious, and I dont know why I am bothering to respond to it.

I suppose, those who are religious are proven to be less intelligent than others, and this has to be taken into account, when being bombarded by their idea of reasonable discussion.
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Funny, your discussion has been nothing but unreasonable.
 
Blackdog said:
Talk about your sweeping generalization.

You don't know much about Christianity I guess.
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I know way more than I want to about it. I grew up in a Christian communtiy and went to a Christian school.
 
Mell said:
I know way more than I want to about it. I grew up in a Christian communtiy and went to a Christian school.
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Then you know just enough to be dangerous. Because most of what you stated cannot be applied to Christianity as a whole, or any other religion for that matter.
 
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