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How do you feel about homeowners protesting electric generating wind turbines?

How do you feel about homeowners protesting electric generating wind turbines?

  • Wiind energy is great & complainers should adapt.

    Votes: 20 35.1%
  • Wiind turbines are good & property owners should be justly compensated for decrease property value

    Votes: 8 14.0%
  • I think Obama is an idiot

    Votes: 5 8.8%
  • I'd be upset if wind turbines went up interfering with my view

    Votes: 3 5.3%
  • The wind turbines should not be allowed to disrupt views

    Votes: 1 1.8%
  • I think George W Bush ruined this nation

    Votes: 3 5.3%
  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 17 29.8%

  • Total voters
    57
Maybe they are not killing endangered species in sufficient numbers to warrant concern for the viability of those species. Do you have links which indicate that they are? It sounds like you're trying to claim hypocrisy without showing that it actually exists

I found this study. Is trying to stop so called global warming worth the trade off?




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Scientists study wind-farm risks to birds
Scientists are taking a careful look at the impact wind farms are having on bird populations.

By Hal Bernton

Seattle Times staff reporter

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STEVE RINGMAN / THE SEATTLE TIMES

A turkey vulture floats on the wind, looking for a meal near wind turbines at the sprawling wind-farm development on Windy Point near Goldendale in Klickitat County. The area is home to one of the largest wind-power projects in the state. The ridges are lined with wind turbines that reflect the boom in this new power source.

STEVE RINGMAN / THE SEATTLE TIMES
Biologist Orah Zamora places a marker while performing a raptor survey below one of the wind turbines at Windy Point, near Goldendale in Klickitat County.


STEVE RINGMAN / THE SEATTLE TIMES
Wind farming is taking over old-fashioned farming on Windy Flats, also near Goldendale.
Related

Gallery | Harvesting the wind
GOLDENDALE, Klickitat County — Biologist Orah Zamora spends her days walking around wind turbines in search of dead birds and bats. Most of her surveys turn up nothing, but every once in a while she finds a carcass that may have been felled by a whirring blade.

"It's like a crime scene, and you try to figure out what happened. Sometimes, it's really obvious because you see a slice mark," Zamora says.

Zamora's monitoring at the Windy Flats project is part of a larger series of surveys to assess how the wind-power boom is impacting birds that must now share air space with the towering turbines.

The surveys, which are financed by the wind industry, indicate that wind power is a relatively minor hazard to birds. But some scientists say it is still too soon to discount the risks posed by the rush to develop Northwest wind power. They are particularly concerned with the plight of hawks, eagles and other raptors, which are large, long-lived birds at the top of the food chain.

One survey at Big Horn Wind Farm in Klickitat County estimated that more than 30 raptors were killed during an initial year of operations — more than seven times the number forecast in a pre-construction study. The dead raptors included kestrels, red-tailed hawks, short-eared owls and a ferruginous hawk, which Washington state lists as a threatened species.

"It's just too early to say what this all means," said K. Shawn Smallwood, a California ecologist who has published numerous scientific articles on wind farms and raptor deaths. "The science is just not there yet."

There also is uncertainty about how raptors react to wind-power development, which often carves up foraging grounds with miles of new roads. Some say more studies are needed to determine if some species shy away from these areas or eventually abandon nests near the wind farms.

"Some of these projects are going up in undeveloped areas that were kind of havens for these species," said James Watson, a Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist who has spent 40 years studying raptors. "These turbines are occupying some of the flight space that is their bread and butter."

Bird-mortality rates

Zamora works for West Inc., an ecological field-study company that has become a major contractor for the wind-power industry. The company's surveys of turbine operations, which typically last a year or more, do miss some dead birds that get quickly picked apart by ravens, vultures or coyotes. Statisticians try to account for such removals in coming up with the final survey estimates that have been released for about a dozen Northwest wind farms.

Based on that information, the wind-power turbines currently operating in Oregon and Washington kill more than 6,500 birds and more than 3,000 bats annually.

In an era of climate change and a massive oil spill off the coast of Louisiana, wind-power advocates say these deaths are an acceptable trade-off for development of a renewable energy source.



They note that house cats and other man-made hazards cause tens of millions of bird deaths each year.

Bird mortality "at wind farms, compared to other human-related causes of bird mortality, is biologically and statistically insignificant," wrote Mike Sagrillo, a consultant who writes for American Wind Energy Association.

But Altamont Pass in California, where an earlier generation of wind turbines constructed during the 1980s were densely packed into a key raptor area, offers a notorious example of wind power's toll on birds.

These Altamont wind farms have consistently killed more raptors per megawatt of power than anywhere else in the nation. Despite efforts to modify these wind farms, surveys indicate the Altamont wind farms still kill more than 1,600 hawks, eagles and other raptors annually, according to Smallwood.

The Altamont experience raised concerns among bird biologists as wind power spread to the Northwest in the late 1990s. In one of the first major projects, Florida Power & Light proposed extending Stateline wind-farm turbines into the bird-rich Wallula Gap saddle, just above McNary National Wildlife Refuge on the Columbia River.

"We told them that we need to think about this — and so do you," recalls Mike Denny, a biologist who serves on the board of the Blue Mountain Audubon Society.

After initially brushing aside those objections, Denny said that Florida Power & Light eventually agreed to negotiations that kept the turbines out of the area and made other siting concessions to reduce the impacts on birds. "I really think they did their best," Denny said.

Considering birds' needs

In recent years, some of the biggest Northwest concerns about raptors and wind-power development have been in the plateau country of Klickitat County, whose farm fields and grazing lands offer a buffet of chukars, rabbits and other prey to birds that nest in the nearby Columbia River Gorge.

When raptors spot prey, powerful hunting instincts take over, and the birds may dive to the ground without paying much heed to rotating — and potentially lethal — blades. Or, they may hover in the air currents, searching for prey, and then drift into the turbines.

In Klickitat County, a new generation of bigger turbines can produce more than twice the electricity of the older models at Altamont. These projects typically have far fewer turbines spaced farther apart, helping reduce the bird toll.

Wind-power developers, after consultations with state biologists, also have agreed to relocate some turbines away from canyon edges frequented by raptors, and avoid installing them in some areas used by raptors or near their nets.

"We take the questions and concerns of wildlife impacts very seriously," said Jan Johnson, a spokeswoman for Iberdrola Renewables, which owns the Big Horn Wind Farm and which invested in conserving 455 acres of wildlife habitat on the south side of the Big Horn site, a larger conservation easement than the state required.

Still, as the industry expands in the years ahead, the raptor death toll will continue to rise. Just how much is in dispute.

One effort to estimate that industry's cumulative death toll was undertaken by West in a study paid for by the Klickitat County Planning Department.

If the industry doubled in size, that study estimated the turbines would kill 516 raptors each year in the Columbia River plateau region of Oregon and Washington. Even at those rates, the study concluded such a toll would not appear to have significant impacts on any species. But ecologist Smallwood thinks the study significantly underestimates the raptor death toll. It's difficult to determine whether these deaths would harm individual species because there aren't good estimates of the total population for most Northwest raptor species, he said.

"We can't say what [death toll] is biologically significant," he said.

Greg Johnson, a biologist who co-authored the West study, conceded that the surveys used to estimate raptor populations have large margins of error. But he said it's better to use those estimates then to "shrug our shoulders and say we don't know."
 
It's like saying.. there is a garage in the next yard that is unattractive.. or a tree.. maybe the neighbours have kids.. maybe they should compensate one another when the have to mow their lawns. Dogs.. cats.. dogs and cats.. gardens.. kids play parks.. endless possibilities.

Maybe, but I think having an industrial wind turbine behind, or in front, of the house would have a bit more of an impact on sale-ability than the examples you give.
 
Maybe they are not killing endangered species in sufficient numbers to warrant concern for the viability of those species. Do you have links which indicate that they are? It sounds like you're trying to claim hypocrisy without showing that it actually exists.

No there is no hard evidence that it has impact on endangered species... or much on any species. It's a real baloney argument imo of course.
 
Maybe, but I think having an industrial wind turbine behind, or in front, of the house would have a bit more of an impact on sale-ability than the examples you give.

Probably not much more then say having a large flag pole set up.
 
No there is no hard evidence that it has impact on endangered species... or much on any species. It's a real baloney argument imo of course.

Look above.
If thousands of hawks, eagles, raptors etc. are killed annually in one area how can you call that baloney?
Environmentalists are nut cases. They banned DDT because they thought (never proven) that it made bird EGGS soft shelled. Millions of lives were lost and are still being lost due to Malaria because of the ban. Yet they find any number of bird deaths acceptable for electricity because it's "clean" Well I call it "bloody" energy.
 
It'd have to be one hell of a flag pole.

Well not really..

EDIT: The house with the windpower generator is much smaller then the larger.
residential-wind-power1.jpg


plp_flag_pole.jpg
 
Look above.
If thousands of hawks, eagles, raptors etc. are killed annually in one area how can you call that baloney?
Environmentalists are nut cases. They banned DDT because they thought (never proven) that it made bird EGGS soft shelled. Millions of lives were lost and are still being lost due to Malaria because of the ban. Yet they find any number of bird deaths acceptable for electricity because it's "clean" Well I call it "bloody" energy.

Look I already gave a study that clearly points to other far more damaging environmental factors then the relatively benign effect comparatively speaking windpower generators have.

Advice from an Expert - Putting Wind's Impact on Birds in Perspective

The environmentalists are nut cases? Suppose the massive BP oil spill would kill more in a few months in terms of wildlife then hundreds of thousands of windmills would in years..

Regardless if you think so or not the environment is a real and important issue, even if it costs private enterprise money to have as little a footprint as possible. Environmental concerns should be held by the public above and beyond private enterprises bottom line.

You may also consider for the sake of balance that there are nut bars in business of making money, no matter what the environmental damage. Windmills however are a relatively benign thing in the grand scheme of things to pull out the soap box on looking to complain about environmental damage. It’s really weak. Just sayin.

EDIT: I would suggest that there were other reasons beyond eggshells that were reasons for banning the use of DDT.
 
Last edited:
Well not really..

EDIT: The house with the windpower generator is much smaller then the larger.
residential-wind-power1.jpg


plp_flag_pole.jpg

I was under the impression we were talking about industrial sized wind turbines.
 
I was under the impression we were talking about industrial sized wind turbines.

Well give me an example of exactly what your talking about in a residential area? I mean I don't think anyone is actually talking about the 200ft tall generators. Even the poll question says nothing specific about that.

How do you feel about homeowners protesting electric generating wind turbines?
 
Personally, I think we should outfit the wind turbines with vuvuzelas just to give the bastards something to whine about.

Throw in a 3am marching band and you've got my vote.

Look, as long as we're using as much electricity as we do to maintain our high-energy lifestyles, we're going to have to generate that electricity. You see people complaining about building wind turbines and nuclear power plants-- the two greenest forms of electricity-- in their neighborhoods, but you never see the same people cutting back on the amount of electricity they use in their houses, or cutting back on disposable products that were manufactured using electricity. Something has to give, and as someone who enjoys the marvels that electricity produces, I prefer building more power plants.

Agree, these type of people like to complain about **** but offer no solutions.
You don't own the view around your property.
 
Well give me an example of exactly what your talking about in a residential area? I mean I don't think anyone is actually talking about the 200ft tall generators. Even the poll question says nothing specific about that.

I guess it was an assumption, still I could see a neighborhood full of the small ones being a bit of an eyesore as well. I still think that solar panels are a far better option for suburban homes.
 
I guess it was an assumption, still I could see a neighborhood full of the small ones being a bit of an eyesore as well. I still think that solar panels are a far better option for suburban homes.

I like them both personally. Wind is nice because you don't have to depend on sunny weather. Solar is nice because it is inconspicuous .. or at least more so. Unless I suppose if you set up one of them huge industrial power generating plants with solar panels.. ;)
 
These turbines are enormous and situated in rural areas, where people have acreage. They look like the:
Wind-power-solutions_wind-turbines_20MW.jpg
 
I like them both personally. Wind is nice because you don't have to depend on sunny weather. Solar is nice because it is inconspicuous .. or at least more so. Unless I suppose if you set up one of them huge industrial power generating plants with solar panels.. ;)

I've got a solar water heater and a full roof of panels and have cut might consumption by about 80%. 90% in months I don't need heat or AC. I wouldn't put up a turbine though since the houses in my area are pretty close together. If it fell, there's a chance it could hit any of about 3 houses, including my own.
 
I like them both personally. Wind is nice because you don't have to depend on sunny weather. Solar is nice because it is inconspicuous .. or at least more so. Unless I suppose if you set up one of them huge industrial power generating plants with solar panels.. ;)

I support the private use of these as part of a grid tie system.
They can both be used but sometimes one is better than the other, depending on your area's average wind speed and location to the sun belt.
 
These turbines are enormous and situated in rural areas, where people have acreage. They look like the:
Wind-power-solutions_wind-turbines_20MW.jpg

Yeah I don't think they would be permitted in residential areas these varieties are massive. These types are used in wind power farms in relatively remote areas. Still though it wouldn't bother me one bit to live within a mile of a windpower generating farm. I might even like it a bit. No nuclear radiation/explosion potential.. no poisoned water.. etc.
 
I've got a solar water heater and a full roof of panels and have cut might consumption by about 80%. 90% in months I don't need heat or AC. I wouldn't put up a turbine though since the houses in my area are pretty close together. If it fell, there's a chance it could hit any of about 3 houses, including my own.

There are smaller units meant to be supplemental that can be mounted to your roof.
They wouldn't pose a threat to your neighbors, anymore than a tree would.
 
I support the private use of these as part of a grid tie system.
They can both be used but sometimes one is better than the other, depending on your area's average wind speed and location to the sun belt.

Yeah the down side of wind is .. you need wind. I agree wrt all that. There could be a real buisness opprotunity in the near future setting up homes with power storage(batteries) etc.. electric cars are defenitly coming as well so all this could tie in nicely. Get rid of them smog alerts etc.. lol I know it is probably not coming anytime soon but I see some opprotunity with all this for sure.

Consumers getting more attention in smart grid | Green Tech - CNET News
 
Yeah the down side of wind is .. you need wind. I agree wrt all that. There could be a real buisness opprotunity in the near future setting up homes with power storage(batteries) etc.. electric cars are defenitly coming as well so all this could tie in nicely. Get rid of them smog alerts etc.. lol I know it is probably not coming anytime soon but I see some opprotunity with all this for sure.

Consumers getting more attention in smart grid | Green Tech - CNET News

With a grid tie system you don't need batteries. ;)
Saves a ton on installing a system.

The gov collects wind info for all of the U.S.
So it's pretty easy to identify, if you should or should not install one.
 
This one is something I want to see imported here.
It's a new European design that hasn't made it to the states, as far as I know.

yeah, there's lots of different designs for them, and some people here seem to think that they'd be the huge ones that are being put in a residential area.

and on a sort of related note, i was in Melbournes CBD the other day, and some of the buildings had turbines like this on top, they looked pretty cool.

Starck-Wind-Turbine.jpg
 
yeah, there's lots of different designs for them, and some people here seem to think that they'd be the huge ones that are being put in a residential area.

I'm an alternative energy fan.
Although I'm not happy with thought that we should be building it like modern power plants are.

It's much more efficient to have it attached to a building or house.

and on a sort of related note, i was in Melbournes CBD the other day, and some of the buildings had turbines like this on top, they looked pretty cool.

That's pretty cool, there is nothing like it around here though.
 
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