Is America a Christian Nation?

Tucker Case · Jul 7, 2010

Jerry said:
Oh let me turn that on you and ask if you think the 76% of the US population who are Christian enjoy being told they're in a secular nation :mrgreen:

Tell you the truth, I'd bet that a great many of that 76% actually do qualify as secular, regardless of the definition used.

But either way, I have to agree that US should not be described as a secular nation, either, since it doesn't accurately describe the population.

Tucker Case · Jul 7, 2010

Jerry said:
Fixed it for you.

Thangs. :lol:

Jerry · Jul 7, 2010

Tucker Case said:
Thangs. :lol:

It's not very often I get to be a grammar Nazi, especialy since Firefox's spell checker doesn't work in DP's new quick reply feature, but I really should leave it to the professionals like 10.

Zyphlin · Jul 7, 2010

Catz Part Deux said:
Do you understand the meaning of the term pagan? I'm guessing no.

Online Etymology Dictionary

In its simplest sense, pagan means only "not Christian."

Being greedy or driven be consumerism does not make one "not Christian"

Tucker Case · Jul 7, 2010

Jerry said:
...especialy since Firefox's spell checker doesn't work in DP's new quick reply feature....

My typos have increased at least 10-fold due to that.

The Mark · Jul 7, 2010

Jerry said:
See that's my point. Regardless of what I add to it, it's still a cup of coffee.

To you.

To someone else, it would be a cup of coffee, with "a lot of cream and a truck load of sugar, along with an ice cube to cool it down."

Without those descriptors, someone could make the mistake of thinking it a cup of coffee with small to medium amounts of cream and sugar...Then upon taking a sip...

The point I’m trying to make is that using such a general description method is fine when dealing with coffee (at least, if referring to your own cup), but when describing a nation, more accuracy is necessary.

Jerry said:
Oh let me turn that on you and ask if you think the 76% of the US population who are Christian enjoy being told they're in a secular nation :mrgreen:

They are.

But at the same time, as Tucker has pointed out, they are also a Christian nation.

Would you not agree that most Christians consider themselves separate from non-Christians? For that matter, some Christian sub-sects consider themselves separate from other Christians, not to mention all other religions.

So they are members of the nation known as the USA, and then also members of the nation of Christianity specifically within the USA, and then also members of the nation of (specific sect of Christianity) specifically within the nation of Christianity specifically within the USA……….

You get the idea.

Jerry said:
Their free to move to any of those Atheist nations if they choose.

Did I specify atheists?

I have a friend who is a “Pagan” (specifically, the old Norse gods and such), and nearly a full-blown socialist. He’s also enough of an anti-Christian (due in part to negative experiences with “Christians”) that I’m positive lumping him into a “Christian nation” would piss him off.

The Mark · Jul 7, 2010

Tucker Case said:
My typos have increased at least 10-fold due to that.

When I'm at work, I don't have access to firefox.

IE, sadly enough.

And thus, I use MS word to spell-check, which adds time to posting.

Tucker Case · Jul 7, 2010

Jerry said:
See that's my point. Regardless of what I add to it, it's still a cup of coffee.

It depends on what you added, actually. Coffee is by it's very nature a mixture. There are still certain requiremnts, though. One of them must be that it is a drink that one can consume relatively safely (i.e. without causing immediate death).

If what you added to the "coffee" was cyanide, calling it coffee would be innacurate because it will no longer have that quality.

Catz Part Deux · Jul 7, 2010

Zyphlin said:
Being greedy or driven be consumerism does not make one "not Christian"

You skipped over the red words in your new testament, didn't you?

Matthew 19:24 "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Mark 10:25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Luke 18:25 "For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

You know, there are very few parables that are consistently repeated through all of the gospels, but somehow, that one was.

Jerry · Jul 7, 2010

The Mark said:
To you.

If it's not a cup of coffee, what is it? A white Russian? Kinda early in the day for that isn't it?

The Mark said:
To someone else, it would be a cup of coffee, with "a lot of cream and a truck load of sugar, along with an ice cube to cool it down."

That's what it is to me, too.

The Mark said:
Without those descriptors, someone could make the mistake of thinking it a cup of coffee with small to medium amounts of cream and sugar...Then upon taking a sip...

I can make the same analogy with pizza if you'd like...

The Mark said:
The point I’m trying to make is that using such a general description method is fine when dealing with coffee (at least, if referring to your own cup), but when describing a nation, more accuracy is necessary.

Not unless we're all political science majors, no, we don't. We're just average people living on the sound bite.

The Mark said:
But at the same time, as Tucker has pointed out, they are also a Christian nation.

You might be able to say that about the Vatican, but Christians per-se, not so much.

The Mark said:
Would you not agree that most Christians consider themselves separate from non-Christians? For that matter, some Christian sub-sects consider themselves separate from other Christians, not to mention all other religions.

I wouldn't say that, no. Christians are not by and large isolationists.

The Mark said:
So they are members of the nation known as the USA, and then also members of the nation of Christianity specifically within the USA, and then also members of the nation of (specific sect of Christianity) specifically within the nation of Christianity specifically within the USA……….

See when you say something like that, I compare it to the Lakota Nation here in SD. The Lakota Nation actually is a sub-nation to the US, complete with official Federal standing, a government with authority, well defined physical boundaries on property, shared religion, a heritage and language. They even issue tribal ID cards stating that a person is a member of the Lakota Nation.

Christians have no such thing within the US.

The Mark said:
Did I specify atheists?

Did I say you did? No. What a guy isn't allowed to introduce anything new?

The Mark said:
I have a friend who is a “Pagan” (specifically, the old Norse gods and such), and nearly a full-blown socialist. He’s also enough of an anti-Christian (due in part to negative experiences with “Christians”) that I’m positive lumping him into a “Christian nation” would piss him off.

Sounds like he needs Christ in his life.

Zyphlin · Jul 7, 2010

Catz Part Deux said:
You skipped over the red words in your new testament, didn't you?

You know, there are very few parables that are consistently repeated through all of the gospels, but somehow, that one was.

Nope, just never read it all the way through nor have I read it more than on a whim in a random day at church for probably a decade.

What I do know however is that being a sinner does not make one not a Christian. The bible says far more things not to do besides simply being greed. However quote me a place in the bible that says the sinner is one who is not considered Christian and then you'll win me over. Otherwise, pointing out that people sin does not prove them to be other than Christian.

Black Dog · Jul 7, 2010

Catz Part Deux said:
You skipped over the red words in your new testament, didn't you?

You know, there are very few parables that are consistently repeated through all of the gospels, but somehow, that one was.

Hard = can't.

Nice jab at the consistency as well.

The fact is they were each written by different people from different perspectives. Being you have worked with law enforcement you above all should understand how you almost never get the same story of the same incident from 2 different people. Of course I suspect you knew this.

Jerry · Jul 7, 2010

Tucker Case said:
It depends on what you added, actually. Coffee is by it's very nature a mixture. There are still certain requiremnts, though. One of them must be that it is a drink that one can consume relatively safely (i.e. without causing immediate death).

If what you added to the "coffee" was cyanide, calling it coffee would be innacurate because it will no longer have that quality.

What a fascinating point; America is also a mixture by nature.

Catz Part Deux · Jul 7, 2010

Zyphlin said:
What I do know however is that being a sinner does not make one not a Christian.

Don't ever get into a bible war with a former sunday school teacher:

Romans 6: 1-2 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

For the record, this is the same passage that believers use to say that practicing homosexuals aren't Christians.

Yes, Christ died for sinners. However, Christians aren't supposed to continue to live in sin, and devote their bodies to the practices of sin.

Colossians 3:5: So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don't be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.

1 Corinthians 6:10: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Believe it or not, the New Testament spends far more time addressing the obstacle of greed than it does fornication or homosexuality.

Catz Part Deux · Jul 7, 2010

Blackdog said:
Nice jab at the consistency as well.

The fact is they were each written by different people from different perspectives. Being you have worked with law enforcement you above all should understand how you almost never get the same story of the same incident from 2 different people. Of course I suspect you knew this.

I do understand this. Quite clearly, 3 of the 4 gospel authors felt this was important enough to write down...Thus, it's something important.

The Mark · Jul 7, 2010

Jerry said:
If it's not a cup of coffee, what is it? A white Russian? Kinda early in the day for that isn't it?

Depends on the day, I suppose, but probably.
And it’s still a cup of coffee, but it’s not JUST a cup of coffee.

Jerry said:
That's what it is to me, too.

And yet you can easily refer to it as a cup of coffee, when talking about your own. Someone else would specify those other things when discussing YOUR cup of coffee, in order to let someone know its dangerous (or a good idea) to try drinking your coffee.

Jerry said:
I can make the same analogy with pizza if you'd like...

And I will respond in the same manner.

Jerry said:
Not unless we're all political science majors, no, we don't. We're just average people living on the sound bite.

BS. Even someone who isn’t a political science major (much like myself) can see the issues that arise from describing the USA as “a Christian nation”.

Jerry said:
You might be able to say that about the Vatican, but Christians per-se, not so much.

Why not?

Jerry said:
I wouldn't say that, no. Christians are not by and large isolationists.

Not my point.

I was saying that they consider themselves separate, not that they are isolationist towards other religions. It’s not the same thing. However, some Christians ARE isolationist towards other religions.

Jerry said:
See when you say something like that, I compare it to the Lakota Nation here in SD. The Lakota Nation actually is a sub-nation to the US, complete with official Federal standing, a government with authority, well defined physical boundaries on property, shared religion, a heritage and language. They even issue tribal ID cards stating that a person is a member of the Lakota Nation.

Christians have no such thing within the US.

Different situation, and a different usage of the word “nation”.
Some parallels, however.

Jerry said:
Did I say you did? No. What a guy isn't allowed to introduce anything new?

Not directly, but I understood it as implied. And it depends.

Jerry said:
Sounds like he needs Christ in his life.

Don’t tell him that.

Tucker Case · Jul 7, 2010

Jerry said:
What a fascinating point; America is also a mixture by nature.

Exactly. Just like how there are certain paramters that must be met for describing a liquid as "coffee" and no ingredients can be included into that mixture which inherently contradict the parameters for describing that mixture as "coffee", the are certain parameters that must be met for describing a nation as "Christian" and no ingredients that can be included in that nation which inherently contradict labeling that mixture as "Christian".

Cyanide is an example of an ingredient that would inherently contradict calling the liquid mixture "coffee", and non-Christians are examples of ingredients that would inherently contradict calling that human mixture "Christian".

Tucker Case · Jul 7, 2010

Jerry said:
What a fascinating point; America is also a mixture by nature.

Exactly. Just like how there are certain paramters that must be met for describing a liquid as "coffee" and no ingredients can be included into that mixture which inherently contradict the parameters for describing that mixture as "coffee", the are certain parameters that must be met for describing a nation as "Christian" and no ingredients that can be included in that nation which inherently contradict labeling that mixture as "Christian".

Cyanide is an example of an ingredient that would inherently contradict calling the liquid mixture "coffee", and non-Christians are examples of ingredients that would inherently contradict calling that human mixture "Christian".

Black Dog · Jul 7, 2010

Catz Part Deux said:
I do understand this. Quite clearly, 3 of the 4 gospel authors felt this was important enough to write down...Thus, it's something important.

Again...

Hard does not equal can't.

You have no argument here.

Zyphlin · Jul 7, 2010

Catz Part Deux said:
Don't ever get into a bible war with a former sunday school teacher:

Romans 6: 1-2 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

For the record, this is the same passage that believers use to say that practicing homosexuals aren't Christians.

Yes, Christ died for sinners. However, Christians aren't supposed to continue to live in sin, and devote their bodies to the practices of sin.

Believe it or not, the New Testament spends far more time addressing the obstacle of greed than it does fornication or homosexuality.

First, the constant homosexual references are worthless of me. I don't come from a point of notion that homosexuality is a sin so I'm not sure what the real point of its inclusion is.

Second, if one repents/asks for forgiveness/etc and strives to not sin but still remains making greedy acts that does not make them pagan. Yes, someone that fully embraces greed, has no issue with greed, completely and utterly indulges in it with no attempt for forgiveness from god nor attempt to not forgo these things, then you may be able to make an argument. However I think you'd be hard pressed to say that most of the self identifying Christians in this country would make up that kind of thing. Again, nothing you've given proves that somehow being sinful, having issues with greed, makes on not a Christian. Yes, a case could be made for those who are greedy, continually and without remorse or absolution, but a far tougher case would be in suggesting that a significant portion of Christians in this country could be considered "Greedy".

Even one who has performed adultery could, to my understanding, still be christian if they ask for forgiveness and strive not to continue that sin.

Throwing out random singular lines out of a book thousands of pages long, specifically lines that don't even claim what you're claiming which is that someone who sins is NOT CHRISTIAN, proves nothing other than your attempt to cherry pick passages that show being greedy is bad or those who are "wicked", which generally to my understanding is those who continually engage in sinful acts without any attempt to find savior in christ or to change their ways, wouldn't inherit the kingdom of god. Indeed, the Colossians 3:5 you quote even suggests that simply the act of greed does not make one non-christian for one can "put to death" those sinful things, suggesting that while they may reside there and have happened as long as one continues to fight against the notion one would be okay.

Jerry · Jul 7, 2010

The Mark said:
Depends on the day, I suppose, but probably.
And it’s still a cup of coffee, but it’s not JUST a cup of coffee.

That's fine, no one ever said America has only Christians.

The Mark said:
And yet you can easily refer to it as a cup of coffee, when talking about your own.

As I have been. Didn't need your permission but thanks anyway I guess.

The Mark said:
Someone else would specify those other things when discussing YOUR cup of coffee, in order to let someone know its dangerous (or a good idea) to try drinking your coffee.

The danger in trying to drink my coffee lays not in the cup.....

The Mark said:
BS.

Bachelor of Science? What major?

The Mark said:
Even someone who isn’t a political science major (much like myself) can see the issues that arise from describing the USA as “a Christian nation”.

Sure, sure, and I can see flying pink elephants. Sure you didn't get into my coffee?

The Mark said:
I was saying that they consider themselves separate, not that they are isolationist towards other religions. It’s not the same thing. However, some Christians ARE isolationist towards other religions.

The existence of evangelicals proves that assumption wrong. Isolationists don't evangelize. Also, Christians exist in every facet of the country where non Christians exist, especially so in the Military. This wouldn't be true were Christians isolationists like the Amish.

The Mark said:
Different situation, and a different usage of the word “nation”.

Absolutely. Difference situations because there is no sub-American Christian Nation. We agree for once.

The Mark said:
Don’t tell him that.

Ooo what's he gona do, write a strongly worded PM? Oh noes!!

Jerry · Jul 7, 2010

Tucker Case said:
Exactly. Just like how there are certain paramters that must be met for describing a liquid as "coffee" and no ingredients can be included into that mixture which inherently contradict the parameters for describing that mixture as "coffee", the are certain parameters that must be met for describing a nation as "Christian" and no ingredients that can be included in that nation which inherently contradict labeling that mixture as "Christian".

Cyanide is an example of an ingredient that would inherently contradict calling the liquid mixture "coffee", and non-Christians are examples of ingredients that would inherently contradict calling that human mixture "Christian".

Well, what you've been arguing is that coffee can't be coffee because 1. there is no such single compound called "coffee" and 2. the cup is not filled exclusively with said compound which doesn't exist.

And yet, I still had a cup of coffee this morning.

Either I didn't have a cup of coffee, coffee doesn't exist and I drank something else, or you're wrong. Aleichem's Razor = you're wrong.

Adding Cyanide to coffee doesn't make it not coffee. It makes it poisoned 'coffee. Still coffee, now with a new prefix.

The Mark · Jul 7, 2010

Jerry said:
That's fine, no one ever said America has only Christians.

And yet “Christian nation” implies either that, or that Christians control the nation. At least to me.

Jerry said:
As I have been. Didn't need your permission but thanks anyway I guess.

Wasn’t giving or allow permission, was simply stating that something was the case.

Jerry said:
The danger in trying to drink my coffee lays not in the cup.....

I thought it might be that way.

But you still got my point, methinks.

Jerry said:
Bachelor of Science? What major?

I’m 99.999% sure you know what I meant, and it surely wasn’t that.

Male bovine excrement would be more accurate.

Jerry said:
Sure, sure, and I can see flying pink elephants. Sure you didn't get into my coffee?

Doubt it. And if you can, more power to you.

Jerry said:
The existence of evangelicals proves that assumption wrong. Isolationists don't evangelize. Also, Christians exist in every facet of the country where non Christians exist, especially so in the Military. This wouldn't be true were Christians isolationists like the Amish.

What assumption? And why are you still responding to my non-existent claim of Christians being “isolationist”.

Jerry said:
Absolutely. Difference situations because there is no sub-American Christian Nation. We agree for once.

Not the difference I meant.

I would consider that which you describe another nation contained within the nation that is the US, along with the “American Christian Nation”, as it were.

The differences are in that they have a formal governing body and are much closer to an actual state than a nation.

Jerry said:
Ooo what's he gona do, write a strongly worded PM? Oh noes!!

No, but he would bend your ear a bit on certain things, most likely.

Not that such is necessarily a bad thing, depending.

Tucker Case · Jul 7, 2010

Zyph, I think I've figured out a better way to explain what my issue with description is.

The question is asking if America is a Christian nation.

As many people have already pointed out, including yourself, a nation is the people, not the State. America is a State, not the people. America cannot be described as a Christian nation because it is not people, it is a landmass.

The question would need to be "can Americans be described as a Christian Nation?"

The answer to this question is found in the Question "Are Americans Christian?"

Since not all Americans are Christian, the most accurate yes/no answer to that question is "No". Yes would be definitely incorrect, but no is not incorrect.

If the question was "Are Americans mosstly a Christian Nation" the answer changes.

Then the answer is found in the question "Are Americans mostly Christian"

Then the answer becomes "Yes".

The problem with the question, and the point I've been trying to make is that you are using the term "Nation" to describe a region and country instead of the population of that country.

Jerry · Jul 7, 2010

Tucker Case said:
Zyph, I think I've figured out a better way to explain what my issue with description is.

The question is asking if America is a Christian nation.

As many people have already pointed out, including yourself, a nation is the people, not the State. America is a State, not the people. America cannot be described as a Christian nation because it is not people, it is a landmass.

The question would need to be "can Americans be described as a Christian Nation?"

The answer to this question is found in the Question "Are Americans Christian?"

Since not all Americans are Christian, the most accurate yes/no answer to that question is "No". Yes would be definitely incorrect, but no is not incorrect.

If the question was "Are Americans mosstly a Christian Nation" the answer changes.

Then the answer is found in the question "Are Americans mostly Christian"

Then the answer becomes "Yes".

The problem with the question, and the point I've been trying to make is that you are using the term "Nation" to describe a region and country instead of the population of that country.

I wish my team could move the goal posts like that.

So let's work on the inconsistencies in this new foe-argument: Is America a State, or a landmass? You claimed both, please pick one.

Is America a Christian Nation?

Is America a Christian nation?

Yes

No

Yes and No

Other

Matthew 16:3

Matthew 16:3

Matthew 16:3

Sporadic insanity normal.

Sporadic insanity normal.

Matthew 16:3

King Of The Dog Pound

Sporadic insanity normal.

Matthew 16:3

Matthew 16:3

King Of The Dog Pound

Sporadic insanity normal.

Matthew 16:3