• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is America a Christian Nation?

Is America a Christian nation?

  • Total voters
    55
Thanks for the wonderful conversation yesterday Tucker. You gave me a lot of various things to think about and I will say again you are the first person to ever put up a legitimate argument within the actual confines of what's being discussed (IE not going "Well we're not a theocracy!") that has actually caused me to re-examine my view since my college profesor.

Reposted from another thread in regards to my new found views that are beginning to form.

Country = Specific geographical section of land
Nation = Population within particular portion of land
State = Government controlling said land and ruling over said Nation

My own views of the Nation of America has changed a bit, in large part thanks to tucker for being the only person I’ve ever met to actually give a legitimate argument against the notion of a Christian Nation. In my mind the Nation that is America is multi-faceted and to claim it as any specific nation singularly would be erroneous. What I would say however is that there is one particular umbrella Nation that one could state, that all other possible ones would fall under. I believe this would be that we are simply a “Nation of Americans”.

By that I mean we are a population who, from its inception to today and throughout the life of America as we will know it, all adhere and share to a point the common bond of the principles and histories that created the political will for this Nation to be born, which in turn formed a State. This is our shared history, that every citizen of the country has by default through their citizenship, our shared method of government by the people, and shared ideology of freedom and liberty that is the foundations from which this State and Nation was willed into being.

However, there are portions of the Nation that can be pointed out and I believe are still correct in their designation that co-exist within the above umbrella nation. Additionally, many of the things I would place under the umbrella actually do factor into the above Nation due to their part in shaping the history of the country.

We are an English Speaking Nation, as a significant portion of our population has that as their primary language, even though English is not our National Language. We are an Individualist Nation, as from the very onset of the Declaration of Independence we have cultivated and created a culture of individual freedom and liberty that is held in high regards by a significant majority of Americans. We are a Christian Nation, as a significant majority of this nation adhere’s to that particular religion and over the years has shaped the culture of the Nation. I would even dare say as well that you could state we are a “Nation of Excess” or a “Nation of Wealth” depending how you want to look at it, as I would claim in relation to the world our population significantly consumes and enjoys a more comfortable level of living as more than 75% of our households enjoy $20,000 more a year and more than 90% enjoying an income greater than the world average of $7,000 a year.

So essentially we are a Nation of Americans, which one could argue has sub designations that would be correct as well if applied as a generality but not implied as a definitive singularity.

So in essence I’d say this, and some are honestly my own opinion…

We are a fragmented country, due to the various internal territories within the overarching country.

We are a Nation of Americans of which contains various applicable subnations one could categorize it as.

We are as a State a secular representative republic based on the notion of individual liberty and equality.
 
Zyphlin said:
I had noticed Ireland and knowing your history with it I figured that would be where you were basing it from.

I would suggest however that the split between Irish catholics and protestants was as much a cultural, historical, and political thing as it is simply a religious thing in regards to their disagreements and thus disassociation with each other. The level of animosity and split between the two denominations there is far more heated, far more pronounced, and far more embraced by both sides than I have ever seen by any sizable majority here in America.
Click to expand...

The key point is that the "nations" involved are split according to their religion, and the cultural and political differences stem from that split not the reverse. Ethnically, they're pretty much the same people.

The fight isn't about religion, but the divisions are determined by religion.
 
The Mark said:
That depends on how you define "Christian nation".

As I define it, you are incorrect, and the opposite is the case.

Our definitions apparently differ.

How do you define it?
Click to expand...

this talk about the Founding Fathers is irrelevant and completely off point...
The Founding Fathers only created the government, the government is not the "Nation"...

nation[ney-shuhn] Show   IPA
–noun
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax.
2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America.
3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation.
4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.

Nation | Define Nation at Dictionary.com

Many U.S. adult citizens identify themselves as Christians (76%)... non-Christian religions (including Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and others) collectively make up about 4% ... Only 59% of Americans living in Western states report a belief in God, yet in the South (the "Bible Belt") the figure is as high as 86% ...

Religion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Christian: (78.4%)
Protestant (51.3%)
Roman Catholic (23.9%)
LDS (1.7%)

Jehovah's Witness (0.7%)
Orthodox (0.6%)
other Christian (0.3%)
no religion (16.1%)
Jewish (1.7%)
Buddhist (0.7%)
Muslim (0.6%)
Hindu (0.4%)
other (1.2%)

Religion in the United States

If the people living under the government and in a country believe something, that is the nation. I have stated repeatedly that the question is phrased poorly.
 
Jerry said:
The OP asks about the nation, not the governement.
Click to expand...

THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING!! ARGH!

One of the first times I have been completely dismissed and then had othes say the same thing and get credit, so it was frustrating... :)
 
I wonder if the question would be better asked like this

Should America rip up the constitution and replace it with the bible?
 
mikhail said:
I wonder if the question would be better asked like this

Should America rip up the constitution and replace it with the bible?
Click to expand...

Well, no, not really...since the constitution deals with the Law of the STATE of America, and not the nation.

Could you perhaps EXPLAIN yourself, or did you just want to pop in for a one liner that doesn't make any reasonable sense in the context of the discussion?
 
Bodhisattva said:
THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING!! ARGH!

One of the first times I have been completely dismissed and then had othes say the same thing and get credit, so it was frustrating... :)
Click to expand...

Read Tucker's posts. I've been arguing the same thing as you and Tuck's been arguing against it baed on the definition of nation being the population, not the government.
 
Bodhisattva said:
this talk about the Founding Fathers is irrelevant and completely off point...
The Founding Fathers only created the government, the government is not the "Nation"...

nation[ney-shuhn] Show   IPA
–noun
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax.
2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America.
3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation.
4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.

Nation | Define Nation at Dictionary.com

Many U.S. adult citizens identify themselves as Christians (76%)... non-Christian religions (including Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and others) collectively make up about 4% ... Only 59% of Americans living in Western states report a belief in God, yet in the South (the "Bible Belt") the figure is as high as 86% ...

Religion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Christian: (78.4%)
Protestant (51.3%)
Roman Catholic (23.9%)
LDS (1.7%)

Jehovah's Witness (0.7%)
Orthodox (0.6%)
other Christian (0.3%)
no religion (16.1%)
Jewish (1.7%)
Buddhist (0.7%)
Muslim (0.6%)
Hindu (0.4%)
other (1.2%)

Religion in the United States

If the people living under the government and in a country believe something, that is the nation. I have stated repeatedly that the question is phrased poorly.
Click to expand...
Not IMO.

That just means the majority of people in the US believe in a God (or something along those lines).

As I said before, it only means the US could be considered a nation of Christians, not that the US is a Christian nation.

I do not consider the two as equal.
 
The Mark said:
Not IMO.

That just means the majority of people in the US believe in a God (or something along those lines).

As I said before, it only means the US could be considered a nation of Christians, not that the US is a Christian nation.

I do not consider the two as equal.
Click to expand...

Oh, so in the gulf it's a spill of oil not that the spill is oil. I gotcha.

X: The disaster in the Gulf is an oil spill.
You: No no, the disaster in the Gulf has oil, but other compounds are being released as well, such as methane hydrates, so the spill has oil but it is not an oil spill.
X: lolwut?
 
Last edited:
The Mark said:
Not IMO.

That just means the majority of people in the US believe in a God (or something along those lines).

As I said before, it only means the US could be considered a nation of Christians, not that the US is a Christian nation.

I do not consider the two as equal.
Click to expand...

So to break down what you'e saying....

The United States of America is a Population of Christians not a Christian Population?



.....que?
 
Zyphlin said:
So to break down what you'e saying....

The United States of America is a Population of Christians not a Christian Population?



.....que?
Click to expand...

Obama's administration is an administration of Democrats, not a Democrat Administration.
 
Well looks like the Majority here know their history and know that it is not. Good news:)
 
mikhail said:
I wonder if the question would be better asked like this

Should America rip up the constitution and replace it with the bible?
Click to expand...

Yeah that is it buddy:)
 
Zyphlin said:
Read Tucker's posts. I've been arguing the same thing as you and Tuck's been arguing against it baed on the definition of nation being the population, not the government.
Click to expand...

Hell, I am not claiming that I said it first, though I did say it at the begining of this thread... :)
 
The Mark said:
Not IMO.

That just means the majority of people in the US believe in a God (or something along those lines).

As I said before, it only means the US could be considered a nation of Christians, not that the US is a Christian nation.

I do not consider the two as equal.
Click to expand...

Apparently you do not understand the term nation then...
 
Jerry said:
Oh, so in the gulf it's a spill of oil not that the spill is oil. I gotcha.

X: The disaster in the Gulf is an oil spill.
You: No no, the disaster in the Gulf has oil, but other compounds are being released as well, such as methane hydrates, so the spill has oil but it is not an oil spill.
X: lolwut?
Click to expand...
Not the same at all.

As I see it, while the majority of citizens in the USA are some type of Christian, such does not make the USA a "Christian nation".

The USA is a nation with majority population of Christians, yes.

The nation known as the USA is made up mostly of Christian people, also yes.

But unless the historical knowledge level among US citizens is far worse than I fear it is, the majority of the US population is also made up of people who believe in a nation separate from religion.

Thus, IMO, the USA is a nation of (majority) Christians, but not a Christian nation.

You could just as easily say we are a "White nation", just because the majority of the population has white skin.

When in fact the more accurate statement would be that the US has a larger population of white-skinned people than other skin colors.

Does that skin color define our very nationhood?

Perhaps it affects it, but I hope it doesn’t define it.

Zyphlin said:
So to break down what you’re saying....

The United States of America is a Population of Christians not a Christian Population?



.....que?
Click to expand...
Precisely.

Bodhisattva said:
Apparently you do not understand the term nation then...
Click to expand...
If my understanding is correct (and someone helpfully posted a definition previously), then in this instance...

"Nation" = The body of people whose collective will (in theory) controls and drives the country they live in.

More or less...
 
The Mark said:
But unless the historical knowledge level among US citizens is far worse than I fear it is, the majority of the US population is also made up of people who believe in a nation separate from religion.
Click to expand...

It is worse than you fear it is. The separation is of church and government, not church and nation or church and people.

The Mark said:
When in fact the more accurate statement would be that the US has a larger population of white-skinned people than other skin colors.
Click to expand...

I don't think Congress ever passed a national day of light skin the way they passed a national day of prayer "to the Almighty God".
 
Last edited:
The Mark said:
Not the same at all.

As I see it, while the majority of citizens in the USA are some type of Christian, such does not make the USA a "Christian nation".

The USA is a nation with majority population of Christians, yes.

The nation known as the USA is made up mostly of Christian people, also yes.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'm with you here....

But unless the historical knowledge level among US citizens is far worse than I fear it is, the majority of the US population is also made up of people who believe in a nation separate from religion.
Click to expand...

No no no no no.

They're a people who believe in a STATE seperate from Religion.

You could just as easily say we are a "White nation", just because the majority of the population has white skin.
Click to expand...

However it would be a MUCH harder argument to make. Only around 60% of the population is White. A majority, but hardly a significant majority. This is different than Christian, which holds more than 3/4ths of the population. It would be a much harder argument to suggest a simple majority is all that would be needed to denote a majority.

In the early days of this country however, near the founding? Absolutely one could consider it a White Nation.

If my understanding is correct (and someone helpfully posted a definition previously), then in this instance...

"Nation" = The body of people whose collective will (in theory) controls and drives the country they live in.

More or less...
Click to expand...

In the realm of this discussion, first and foremost, they wouldn't drive the country. The country is the territory. You're suggestion would be that they drive and control the STATE. No, the people of a nation do not necessarily have to control nor drive the state, though that does not mean they can't.

A Nation is a group of individuals (in this case defined as within the borders of the country known as the USA) sharing a common religion, ethnicity, language, culture, and/or history. There's some dispute in regards to the and or or there, and political ideology has figured into it as well. However, control over the State is essentially irrelevant to whether or not a nation exists.
 
Jerry said:
It is worse than you fear it is. The separation is of church and government, not church and nation or church and people.
Click to expand...
Not quite what I was trying to get at…

But I agree with your statement.

Jerry said:
I don't think Congress ever passed a national day of light skin the way they passed a national day of prayer "to the Almighty God".
Click to expand...
No idea. Seems unlikely, though.

Zyphlin said:
Okay, I'm with you here....
Click to expand...
Good.



Zyphlin said:
No no no no no.

They're a people who believe in a STATE separate from Religion.
Click to expand...
Quite true - I used the incorrect term.

Zyphlin said:
However it would be a MUCH harder argument to make. Only around 60% of the population is White. A majority, but hardly a significant majority. This is different than Christian, which holds more than 3/4ths of the population. It would be a much harder argument to suggest a simple majority is all that would be needed to denote a majority.

In the early days of this country however, near the founding? Absolutely one could consider it a White Nation.
Click to expand...
I would still say “nation of (mostly) white people", rather than “White nation”.

The difference, as I see it, is what defines the nation.

In the first, the nation is both the definer and the defined.

In the second, “white” is the definer and “nation” is defined by it.

The same point I was attempting to make about “Christian nation”.

Zyphlin said:
In the realm of this discussion, first and foremost, they wouldn't drive the country. The country is the territory. You're suggestion would be that they drive and control the STATE. No, the people of a nation do not necessarily have to control nor drive the state, though that does not mean they can't.

A Nation is a group of individuals (in this case defined as within the borders of the country known as the USA) sharing a common religion, ethnicity, language, culture, and/or history. There's some dispute in regards to the and or there, and political ideology has figured into it as well. However, control over the State is essentially irrelevant to whether or not a nation exists.
Click to expand...
Good point.

To correct my statements, I would rephrase…

There is a “Christian nation” in the US. But the US is not a “Christian nation”.

IMO, the nation that is the USA contains a “Christian nation”, but is not one itself.

Damn my poor communication skills.
 
Honestly, its not poor communication skills but the fact that common speech uses the term nation far differently than Political Science does, which is what I was talking about here.

So you appear to be in the same mindset as Tucker where 100% of the population must adhere to the commonality that's being quoted for it to be considered a nation? In that case, as I asked him, is it ever actually possible to HAVE a nation since there is almost never going to be a time where 100% of a particular geographical locations population is going to share that commonality to the last man. And if not 100% what's your cut off from when it becomes a nation of "mostly" blank to "a blank nation"?
 
Zyphlin said:
Honestly, its not poor communication skills but the fact that common speech uses the term nation far differently than Political Science does, which is what I was talking about here.

So you appear to be in the same mindset as Tucker where 100% of the population must adhere to the commonality that's being quoted for it to be considered a nation? In that case, as I asked him, is it ever actually possible to HAVE a nation since there is almost never going to be a time where 100% of a particular geographical locations population is going to share that commonality to the last man. And if not 100% what's your cut off from when it becomes a nation of "mostly" blank to "a blank nation"?
Click to expand...
It’s probably not 100%, but it’s very close.

Likely 90-95% at the least.

It would seem to me that at least 90% of the US citizenry consider themselves part of the nation of The United States of America.

Probably closer to 95%, I would hope.

Perhaps even 99%, or 100% (although that last is unlikely).

That comprehensive kind of thing is part of what makes a nation.

Even people who disagree in large part with the path that nation is on…Still, they often consider themselves part of it.

Personally, however, I think if you demand “100% commonality”, then no nation CAN exist.

I think the USA may be closer than some “nations” in that regard, however.

If less so than in previous years, perhaps.
 
The Mark said:
If my understanding is correct (and someone helpfully posted a definition previously), then in this instance...

"Nation" = The body of people whose collective will (in theory) controls and drives the country they live in.

More or less...
Click to expand...

OK I see how you are differentiating. Semantics really though... A Christian Nation is a Nation of Christians to me. The two are synomonous.
 
Zyphlin said:
In the realm of this discussion, first and foremost, they wouldn't drive the country. The country is the territory. You're suggestion would be that they drive and control the STATE. No, the people of a nation do not necessarily have to control nor drive the state, though that does not mean they can't.

A Nation is a group of individuals (in this case defined as within the borders of the country known as the USA) sharing a common religion, ethnicity, language, culture, and/or history. There's some dispute in regards to the and or or there, and political ideology has figured into it as well. However, control over the State is essentially irrelevant to whether or not a nation exists.
Click to expand...

Agreed....................
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom