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Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

Do you think the U.S. was intended to be a Christian Nation?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 19.4%
  • No

    Votes: 99 68.8%
  • other

    Votes: 17 11.8%

  • Total voters
    144
Let me try this again but with relevance to your question.

What would suffice is something stating that the legal agreement of the treaty is now void. Beyond that something that indicates the legal stance of congress and the Constitution that states that there is no separation of church and state implied or intended.


Regardless of what people say in trying to marginalize the treaty it was a legal document none the less. Avalon Project - The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796

For the Americans, the terms of the treaty were quickly rendered moot. Citing late payments of tribute, the Pasha of Tripoli, in 1801, declared war on the United States. The United States fought back this time, and sent the Navy and Marines to Tripoli (to the famed "shores of Tripoli"), where the Pasha's forces were defeated. A new treaty, finalized in 1805, included a payment of ransom for U.S. prisoners, but no further payment of tribute. - Index Page - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

The Pasha of Tripoli actually declared war on the US in 1801..........five years after the drafting of the treaty you cited. I would call this all the evidence needed to render the original treaty invalid......wouldn't you? :shrug:
 
What is the opposite of the phrase separation of church and state? The opposite would obviously be like this: the church and state are one. We are not talking about a sentence here or there or some religious phrases we are talking about a national church in effect a theocracy when we are talking about no separation between church and state. With no separation the church is part of the Government much like how things are in many countries in the middle east.


Personally I have no use for political correctness And I despise revisionism of history and reality. Add those two accusations together and obviously you think that I am an liberal, you are quite mistaken.

People can be religious and be in the Government after all the 1st Amendment protects that right. The reason that people are upset about religion and Government right now is because the religious Right keeps claiming that there is no separation of church and state. That assertion coupled with the other assertions that the religious Right make about true Americans are Christian's, well we just do not trust anyone anymore to not force a theocracy down our throats. And since it would be simple to prove my point by linking many Republican and Tea Party sites that promote the idea of an CHristian Nation while it is obvious that we are a melting pot of cultures where freedom of religion is the rule of the land where we are free to worship or not worship whatever we want, sorry if it offends you that I want freedom and liberty and not a theocracy.

All of this is fine and good, but does not detract from the FACT that there is NO constitutional basis nor official, legal, FEDERAL document which upholds a strict policy of Separation of Church and State and there never has been. :shrug:

The fact that the Federal Govt. would include the mention of God (with a capital "G") in it's legal draftings, such as the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, seems to make this painstakingly obvious......at least to those without blinders on. I'm not saying that this is either "right" or "good"; I'm just saying............that's the way it is......period. :shrug:
 
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All of this is fine and good, but does not detract from the FACT that there is NO constitutional basis nor official, legal, FEDERAL document which upholds a strict policy of Separation of Church and State and there never has been. :shrug:

The fact that the Federal Govt. would include the mention of God (with a capital "G") in it's legal draftings, such as the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, seems to make this painstakingly obvious......at least to those wihout blinders on. I'm not saying that this is either "right" or "good"; I'm just saying............that's the way it is......period. :shrug:

AT best you could claim that it used to be that way but no longer is. Kind of like we used to have slavery but no longer tolerate it. In the present the legal understanding of the Constitution is that there is a separation of church and state. Believing that there is another definition since the word god was used in places (excluding the Constitution, which if to your claim had any real meaning god and jesus would be all over the Constitution which it isnt) is meaningless without the legal backing to prove your point.

And as I pointed out our official history defines the separation of church and state as a main theme of the framers. Its a simple concept that the framers had though, if I want to ensure my right to believe in or not believe in whatever I want I must ensure that everyone has the same right as I do. The idea that this is a officially Christian Nation completely spits in the face of everyone that is not Christian and make the US sound more like the persecution that this countries forefathers tried to get away from.

It is easy for a Christian to say that America is a Christian nation but for non-Christians it a threat to our freedoms and our liberties to enjoy the same opportunities that we were all born with citizens or by those that have made this their permanent home. Im not sure how any Christians can honestly ignore our rich diverse history without feeling a bit hypocritical when they insist that we are all supposed to be Christian's just because we are Americans. Again I am reminded of the middle east but that should not be a big surprise since that is the origin of Christianity not America.
 
Have you ever actually read the Arabic translation of the Treaty of Tripoli? Perhaps you should take a look and upon viewing it, you may change your mind about using it as a legal document to defend the principle of Separation of Church and State......the phrase "Praise be to God" is used about one hundred times.....:lol: Here is a link:

Avalon Project - The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty with Tripoli 1796 <BR> The Annotated Translation of 1930

This is a joke right? AT least I hope you are joking, considering that we did not write this treaty. Hell not even one American signed the damn thing. Lol
 
The Pasha of Tripoli actually declared war on the US in 1801..........five years after the drafting of the treaty you cited. I would call this all the evidence needed to render the original treaty invalid......wouldn't you? :shrug:

Invalid as a legal treaty but the power of the Presidents seal backs the document as a legal document and you would need some legal proceeding to remove the legal significance of what is written in it. I am unaware of any court that has proven the information pertaining to the separation of church and state as being invalid information. In fact as I am sure that you there was a Supreme Court ruling that gave the document legal basis in determining the meaning of the 1st Amendment. You cannot just wish these things away because they do not go along with what you believe.
 
AT best you could claim that it used to be that way but no longer is. Kind of like we used to have slavery but no longer tolerate it. In the present the legal understanding of the Constitution is that there is a separation of church and state. Believing that there is another definition since the word god was used in places (excluding the Constitution, which if to your claim had any real meaning god and jesus would be all over the Constitution which it isnt) is meaningless without the legal backing to prove your point.

And as I pointed out our official history defines the separation of church and state as a main theme of the framers. Its a simple concept that the framers had though, if I want to ensure my right to believe in or not believe in whatever I want I must ensure that everyone has the same right as I do. The idea that this is a officially Christian Nation completely spits in the face of everyone that is not Christian and make the US sound more like the persecution that this countries forefathers tried to get away from.

It is easy for a Christian to say that America is a Christian nation but for non-Christians it a threat to our freedoms and our liberties to enjoy the same opportunities that we were all born with citizens or by those that have made this their permanent home. Im not sure how any Christians can honestly ignore our rich diverse history without feeling a bit hypocritical when they insist that we are all supposed to be Christian's just because we are Americans. Again I am reminded of the middle east but that should not be a big surprise since that is the origin of Christianity not America.

I never made the claim that it was an "officially Christian nation" , I simply pointed out the obvious. I believe that the original intent, and the Constitution states as much, was that the government would not be allowed to create a "state religion." I don't think anyone is in disagreement with this. We must, however, interpret history in its correct context, and understand that the vast majority of the earlist US citizens espoused Christianity. I fully accept that the Founders intended to protect the "free exercise" of any and ALL religions, and that neither Congress nor the states could legally establish a church. This does not, however, prevent the government from making references to God, and SHOULD NOT legally prevent any government official from openly espousing particular religious beliefs.....even those of Christianity. The secular movement, sadly, has attempted, quite successfully, to revise the original intent of the Founders to mean that ANY and ALL mention of God or of Christianity by public officials and in public institutions is in violation of the First Amendment.......this simply has no legal or Constituional basis.
 
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This is a joke right? AT least I hope you are joking, considering that we did not write this treaty. Hell not even one American signed the damn thing. Lol

A "treaty" must be agreed upon by both parties in order to be valid, correct? This was the version of the treaty YOU cited that was drafted by the Barbary States..................in essence, their counterpart to our treaty. :shrug:
 
Invalid as a legal treaty but the power of the Presidents seal backs the document as a legal document and you would need some legal proceeding to remove the legal significance of what is written in it. I am unaware of any court that has proven the information pertaining to the separation of church and state as being invalid information. In fact as I am sure that you there was a Supreme Court ruling that gave the document legal basis in determining the meaning of the 1st Amendment. You cannot just wish these things away because they do not go along with what you believe.

This is just simply nonsense and you know it. You are obviously grasping for straws here. When Tripoli declared war on the US (in direct violation of the treaty) it INSTANTLY became null and void. Surely you're not going to deny this? :thinking:


You asked for evidence that the treaty was not valid and it was provided..........now you're just going to sit there and blatantly ignore it? I just don't understand. :doh:
 
I never made the claim that it was an "officially Christian nation" , I simply pointed out the obvious. I believe that the original intent, and the Constitution states as much, was that the government would not be allowed to create a "state religion." I don't think anyone is in disagreement with this. We must, however, interpret history in its correct context, and understand that the vast majority of the earlist US citizens espoused Christianity. I fully accept that the Founders intended to protect the "free exercise" of any and ALL religions, and that neither Congress nor the states could legally establish a church. This does not, however, prevent the government from making references to God, and SHOULD NOT legally prevent any government official from openly esousing particular religious beliefs.....even those of Christianity. The secular movement, sadly, has attempted, quite successfully, to revise the original intent of the Founders to mean that ANY and ALL mention of God or of Christianity by public officials and in public institutions is in violation of the First Amendment.......this simply has no legal or Constituional basis.

As I said the best that you could claim is that it used to be ok to promote your religion while in office or on public property but in lieu of the bad behavior of a few that type of activity is no longer acceptable nor legal.

Let me point out again that I fully support Americans right to practice religion of not too. And let me also point out that outside of public office or off of public property no one is being stopped from the free exercise of any religion. And in some circumstances religion is allowed on public property and by those with a public office. I as an individual am not involved at all with any attempt to allegedly remove god from all aspects of public life. In other words I would appreciate that you would not tie me to the so called secular movement. admittedly I do support things like keeping god out of schools, and the removal of god from the pledge and our money and things like that. But its not like I am offended that people are believers in something. More often than not it is the religious that persecute Atheists and treat them as evil and immoral. What I see is that Atheists have finally been pissed on for too long and are rebelling against religion in general. Too bad though that they have become what they hate. I am disappointed that some Atheist have chosen to be assholes since it further destroys any chance of equality between Atheist and the religious. But then one must remember that there are alot of far Leftists that have really screwed up the image of Atheists all around the world. At any rate I am an individual with my own view of the world separate from any group. Yes I just said that I am a individualist not a collectivist. I know that you did not accuse me of some of these things but since you keep sounding like you are thinking it I thought I try to clear things up.
 
As I said the best that you could claim is that it used to be ok to promote your religion while in office or on public property but in lieu of the bad behavior of a few that type of activity is no longer acceptable nor legal.

Let me point out again that I fully support Americans right to practice religion of not too. And let me also point out that outside of public office or off of public property no one is being stopped from the free exercise of any religion. And in some circumstances religion is allowed on public property and by those with a public office. I as an individual am not involved at all with any attempt to allegedly remove god from all aspects of public life. In other words I would appreciate that you would not tie me to the so called secular movement. admittedly I do support things like keeping god out of schools, and the removal of god from the pledge and our money and things like that. But its not like I am offended that people are believers in something. More often than not it is the religious that persecute Atheists and treat them as evil and immoral. What I see is that Atheists have finally been pissed on for too long and are rebelling against religion in general. Too bad though that they have become what they hate. I am disappointed that some Atheist have chosen to be assholes since it further destroys any chance of equality between Atheist and the religious. But then one must remember that there are alot of far Leftists that have really screwed up the image of Atheists all around the world. At any rate I am an individual with my own view of the world separate from any group. Yes I just said that I am a individualist not a collectivist. I know that you did not accuse me of some of these things but since you keep sounding like you are thinking it I thought I try to clear things up.

You are correct. I do not know you and I'm certainly not accusing you of promoting, joining, or leading the secular movement. :)

I was simply pointing out the legal flaws in several of your assertions and in the documentation which you've cited. The fact that you use some of the same flawed "legalities" as the general secular movement in an attempt to uphold the policy of strict separation of Church and State, may simply be coincidental. :shrug:
 
This is just simply nonsense and you know it. You are obviously grasping for straws here. When Tripoli declared war on the US (in direct violation of the treaty) it INSTANTLY became null and void. Surely you're not going to deny this? :thinking:


You asked for evidence that the treaty was not valid and it was provided..........now you're just going to sit there and blatantly ignore it? I just don't understand. :doh:

It was a trick question since I wanted to explain the legal validness of the document. And as I said the courts have confirmed that the document has legal definitions within it. Sure the treaty in the first place was pointless since it was made to appease the sultans to ensure safe shipping lines, but the document was completely legal for at least 8 years before it was changed.
 
You are correct. I do not know you and I'm certainly not accusing you of promoting, joining, or leading the secular movement. :)

I was simply pointing out the legal flaws in several of your assertions and in the documentation which you've cited. The fact that you use some of the same flawed "legalities" as the general secular movement in an attempt to uphold the policy of strict separation of Church and State, may simply be coincidental. :shrug:

I dont really put a lot of significance behind the Tripoli treaty other than legally it was existent which has a certain amount reason for making the case for the separation of church and state..

But ithe treaty is only one of many historical and legal evidence for the separation of church and state.

Take this Supreme court ruling in 1879 for example. It is a early example of the historical case that I am talking about.

FindLaw | Cases and Codes

In a little more than a year after the passage of this statute the convention met which prepared the Constitution of the United States.' Of this convention Mr. Jefferson was not a member, he being then absent as minister to France. As soon as he saw the draft of the Constitution proposed for adoption, he, in a letter to a friend, expressed his disappointment at the absence of an express declaration insuring the freedom of religion (2 Jeff. Works, 355), but was willing to accept it as it was, trusting that the good sense and honest intentions of the people would bring about the necessary alterations. [98 U.S. 145, 164] 1 Jeff. Works, 79. Five of the States, while adopting the Constitution, proposed amendments. Three-New Hampshire, New York, and Virginia-included in one form or another a declaration of religious freedom in the changes they desired to have made, as did also North Carolina, where the convention at first declined to ratify the Constitution until the proposed amendments were acted upon. Accordingly, at the first session of the first Congress the amendment now under consideration was proposed with others by Mr. Madison. It met the views of the advocates of religious freedom, and was adopted. Mr. Jefferson afterwards, in reply to an address to him by a committee of the Danbury Baptist Association (8 id. 113), took occasion to say: 'Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions,-I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.' Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order.
 
It was a trick question since I wanted to explain the legal validness of the document. And as I said the courts have confirmed that the document has legal definitions within it. Sure the treaty in the first place was pointless since it was made to appease the sultans to ensure safe shipping lines, but the document was completely legal for at least 8 years before it was changed.
It was an international treaty......it has zero legal implications in regards to US Constitutional law........Zilch! Since when have international treaties EVER been used as a basis for interpreting constitutionality? I'll give you a hint.....never. I really don't know what else to say on the matter..........other than this necroed thread has probably been drawn out much longer than was really necessary. :shrug:
 
I dont really put a lot of significance behind the Tripoli treaty other than legally it was existent which has a certain amount reason for making the case for the separation of church and state..

But ithe treaty is only one of many historical and legal evidence for the separation of church and state.

Take this Supreme court ruling in 1879 for example. It is a early example of the historical case that I am talking about.

FindLaw | Cases and Codes

In a little more than a year after the passage of this statute the convention met which prepared the Constitution of the United States.' Of this convention Mr. Jefferson was not a member, he being then absent as minister to France. As soon as he saw the draft of the Constitution proposed for adoption, he, in a letter to a friend, expressed his disappointment at the absence of an express declaration insuring the freedom of religion (2 Jeff. Works, 355), but was willing to accept it as it was, trusting that the good sense and honest intentions of the people would bring about the necessary alterations. [98 U.S. 145, 164] 1 Jeff. Works, 79. Five of the States, while adopting the Constitution, proposed amendments. Three-New Hampshire, New York, and Virginia-included in one form or another a declaration of religious freedom in the changes they desired to have made, as did also North Carolina, where the convention at first declined to ratify the Constitution until the proposed amendments were acted upon. Accordingly, at the first session of the first Congress the amendment now under consideration was proposed with others by Mr. Madison. It met the views of the advocates of religious freedom, and was adopted. Mr. Jefferson afterwards, in reply to an address to him by a committee of the Danbury Baptist Association (8 id. 113), took occasion to say: 'Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions,-I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.' Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order.

Your hyperlink goes to the case :Reynolds vs. the US . This was the Supreme Court decision which basically said that a person's religious practices could not be used as a defense for violating established laws. The basis of this case was a Utah Mormon charged with bigamy. I don't even see how this relates to your assertion regarding the treaty nor how the quote you've pasted below the hyperlink even relates to the case which you've cited? Perhaps I am missing something? Or maybe it's just getting late. :shrug:
 
Who cares how or why the country was founded? What matters is what it is today, and can be tomorrow.
 
Your hyperlink goes to the case :Reynolds vs. the US . This was the Supreme Court decision which basically said that a person's religious practices could not be used as a defense for violating established laws. The basis of this case was a Utah Mormon charged with bigamy. I don't even see how this relates to your assertion regarding the treaty nor how the quote you've pasted below the hyperlink even relates to the case which you've cited? Perhaps I am missing something? Or maybe it's just getting late. :shrug:

Dude now you are being ridiculous, do you know nothing about evidence and case law? It does not matter what the case was about but how the information is determined.


My claim as I just said is not about the Tripoli treaty. You seem stuck on just that one piece of evidence. What you are missing is that the separation of church and state is a known legal fact historically and today. The Reynolds vs the US proves that fact by case law. In order for you to win this debate you would have to prove the entire history of the US to be false regarding the legal powers of the 1st Amendment. You would have to rewrite history books and to do that you would have to convince historians that everything they know about the 1st Amendment is wrong. You would have to change the official position on separation of church and state.

It just occurred to me that perhaps you have a entirely errant definition of what separation of church and state means.

Have you heard of the Establishment Clause? Establishment Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The establishment clause arose during James Madison's efforts to have the constitution ratified. Virginia had disestablished the gentry-supported Church of England during and after the American Revolution. This left the Baptists in a position of political influence. Col. Thomas Barber, an opponent of the constitution in Madison's home of Orange County, Virginia, began a campaign for election to the state ratifying convention. He garnered support among the local Baptists by warning them that the constitution had no safeguard against creating a new national church. To head off Barber's challenge, Madison met with influential Baptist preacher John Leland and promised that, in exchange for Leland's support of ratification, he would sponsor several amendments that were ultimately combined into the First Amendment. The Establishment Clause was established mainly as a consensus among all of the religious groups in America during 1787, to prevent one religion from having too much influence.
 
I think North American settlers in large part came here in search of the freedom live lives of Christianity while fleeing Pharisaical religion calling itself Christianity. Because of this the prominent influence of Christianity on the culture is seen in the historical record of the founding of the nation.

As it relates to the foundation of America, the freedom to live out our lives as we desire is enshrined in our founding documents including the freedom to identify with Christianity both privately and publicly and if we wish, the right to influence the culture and government policy in keeping with Christian values limited however to not FORCING others to become Christians. Sharing one's own Christianity as an exercise of free speech, practicing aspects of Christianity in public including with other Christians, advocating laws that are keeping with Christian values and facilitating and participating in Christian cultural recognitions in the public square is not FORCING others to become Christians.
 
All of this is fine and good, but does not detract from the FACT that there is NO constitutional basis nor official, legal, FEDERAL document which upholds a strict policy of Separation of Church and State and there never has been. :shrug:

The fact that the Federal Govt. would include the mention of God (with a capital "G") in it's legal draftings, such as the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, seems to make this painstakingly obvious......at least to those without blinders on. I'm not saying that this is either "right" or "good"; I'm just saying............that's the way it is......period. :shrug:

What about the conus, "respect no establishment of religion" [para phrase]?
 
What about the conus, "respect no establishment of religion" [para phrase]?

The US House of Representatives together with the US Senate may not pass a law(s) establishing an official Church(es) of America. At the same time the government may not restrict Americans from practicing their faith(s), which I believe applies to doing so in public since if its private how would the government even know? I also believe this includes in expressions of faith that might included things government related or they themselves would not have included prayers to God, Scripture references, etc. in official government documents and meetings.
 
Holy old thread! I was wondering why I was getting "likes" on a thread that I remember from ages ago.
 
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