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Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

Do you think the U.S. was intended to be a Christian Nation?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 19.4%

  • No

    Votes: 99 68.8%

  • other

    Votes: 17 11.8%
  • Total voters
    144
digsbe said:
Incorrect. They believed in God, they believed God created men equally and with rights. They didn't have to say "God told me to do this personally" in order to believe that our rights came from God. It can be proven that God inspired these as the Creator is mentioned specifically as the one who makes men equal and gives us our rights.
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exactly. it was this critical sourcing that made these rights 'inalienable'. what God has given you, no man may take away. what man has given you he can take away just as easily. to say that our rights come from man is to say that we don't really have rights at all, we have preferences and temporary liberties.
 
digsbe said:
No, founded with church and state separation to prevent a theocracy and ensure that people can retain their religious freedoms without a state church or an oppressive secular government from telling them they can't believe/practice freely. Many of the founders saw the damage that state churches brought to religious freedom, many of the pilgrims came to America to flee religious persecution in Europe for not adhering to the state church (Catholic, Anglican, etc.)
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Spin it however you want. It's not my problem on how US chooses to describe itself.

Imo tho, it is not a Christian country or founded on it. No way near infact.
If one wants to get technical and see what is a 'Christian country'. Look at Europe
 
Laila said:
Spin it however you want. It's not my problem on how US chooses to describe itself.

Imo tho, it is not a Christian country or founded on it. No way near infact.
If one wants to get technical and see what is a 'Christian country'. Look at Europe
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Europe isn't Christian. Europe is neither fish nor fowl. Europe is alone.
 
digsbe said:
Incorrect. They believed in God, they believed God created men equally and with rights. They didn't have to say "God told me to do this personally" in order to believe that our rights came from God. It can be proven that God inspired these as the Creator is mentioned specifically as the one who makes men equal and gives us our rights.
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No, we cannot prove that God talks to anyone, therefore, you cannot prove that God inspired men to do anything nor can it be proven that God made us equal (which wasn't even truly believed since the definition of "men" has been expanded since then to include some who many of those founders didn't consider equal) or gave us any rights. You can believe that God talks to you and/or talked to someone in the past, but that doesn't prove that it is true. It is possible but cannot be proven (not at this time). Plus, many of the ideas that went into our founding as a nation were already established, just not put into practice altogether.
 
roguenuke said:
No, we cannot prove that God talks to anyone, therefore, you cannot prove that God inspired men to do anything nor can it be proven that God made us equal (which wasn't even truly believed since the definition of "men" has been expanded since then to include some who many of those founders didn't consider equal) or gave us any rights.
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pshaw, this is an easy game. i can't prove that you aren't an Iranian agent attempting to weaken the moral fabric of American society through continuing the disconnect between our public life and our faith and so therefore you are.

if the Founding Fathers claimed to be led by God, you have to accept that at face value, or just toss out nearly everything we know about reality. :sorry:
 
cpwill said:
pshaw, this is an easy game. i can't prove that you aren't an Iranian agent attempting to weaken the moral fabric of American society through continuing the disconnect between our public life and our faith and so therefore you are.

if the Founding Fathers claimed to be led by God, you have to accept that at face value, or just toss out nearly everything we know about reality. :sorry:
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Sure you can. You can get proof that I'm trying to do something very easily. You can set up a surveilance system to catch me, look into my background and interview anyone I have ever spoke with. It would be tough, but it can be proven.

Now, you might have a difficult time trying to prove what I really believe or my true intentions, since those are internal thoughts and we can't exactly prove what people feel and think, yet. However, saying that, I don't have to accept anything the founding fathers said as true, since there is no way to go back in time and even know how each of them lived their lives. We can't know how any of them truly felt about God or if they were just pandering. They can believe that they were inspired by God and that God set forth certain inalienable rights, but it doesn't make it true.

In fact, since those "inalienable rights" have been expanded to other people, then what is the explaination for God inspiring them to give certain inalienable rights to some but then waiting so long to inspire others to give those same rights to people that didn't fit in during that time?
 
digsbe said:
No, founded with church and state separation to prevent a theocracy and ensure that people can retain their religious freedoms without a state church or an oppressive secular government from telling them they can't believe/practice freely.
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AND to allow ANY religious beliefs or lack thereof to flourish. You paint it as a Christian only place when we KNOW other religions were present even if they were small.


digsbe said:
Incorrect. They believed in God, they believed God created men equally and with rights.
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What about the deists?

Why do you ignore them?

digsbe said:
They didn't have to say "God told me to do this personally" in order to believe that our rights came from God. It can be proven that God inspired these as the Creator is mentioned specifically as the one who makes men equal and gives us our rights.
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Where? You realize the DOI is NOT part of the Constitution, right?

I don't doubt SOME or even MOST believed the "rights" came from their preferred god. But your claim that they ALL did is stretching the truth. You ignore the deists and such men as Jefferson who held no such beliefs: "all men are created equal and independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable"

Notice there is no god on high who hands down the "inalienable rights" Jefferson speaks of.
 
roguenuke said:
Sure you can. You can get proof that I'm trying to do something very easily. You can set up a surveilance system to catch me, look into my background and interview anyone I have ever spoke with. It would be tough, but it can be proven.
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nope; all those items do is demonstrate the deepness of your cover.

see, the tick is that here we are willing to discount the available evidence if it does not support a preconcieved result (the founders did not recieve guidance from God, you are an iranian agent). it's called an "unfalsifiable thesis", and it's a fallacy.
 
cpwill said:
what God has given you, no man may take away.
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What do you have that no one can take away?

People can enslave you, kill you, torture you, make you go insane, drug you, beat you, etc.

There is NOTHING you have that cannnot be taken away by others given enough power and time.

cpwill said:
what man has given you he can take away just as easily.
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EVERYTHING can be taken from you. We can mulch up your brain with a knife or drugs to take your memories and forever change your personality.

cpwill said:
to say that our rights come from man is to say that we don't really have rights at all, we have preferences and temporary liberties.
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Welcome to reality. Where your "rights" are only what your society or group makes of them. Consult a history book for examples: slavery, freedom of religion, property rights, pedophilia, genocide, rape, trial by jury, ...
 
I suppose it might have been the intent, but it failed....
I voted NO.
 
cpwill said:
nope; all those items do is demonstrate the deepness of your cover.

see, the tick is that here we are willing to discount the available evidence if it does not support a preconcieved result (the founders did not recieve guidance from God, you are an iranian agent). it's called an "unfalsifiable thesis", and it's a fallacy.
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Look, what would be concrete proof that God talked to those founding fathers? We cannot possibly have proof that God talked to them, not yet. You can get proof that I am trying to destroy America or convert people, or at least that it seemed to be my intention. There isn't any way to even prove that God seemed to want something to happen, especially not with the contradiction that I mentioned. If God wanted both to happen, then why wait so long between "inspiring" people to do one but not the other. He is God, if He truly wanted to make changes in how people live then He could have done so. Logic holds that he could have very easily have influenced every one of those founding fathers to go that step further, free the slaves, and give all those rights enumerated in the Constitution to every human being, not just those that were deemed worthy by the majority of the people at the time.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
So one is left with one conclusion: The US was founded with christianity, not upon it. If you want to know what the US was founded on, I would say: Responsibility for "rights only exist within the context of responsibility.
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No place in the Constitution is God mentioned, including the preamble, but it does protect the right to be religious in the First Amendment. In article two, the President says the words... "I do solemnly swear, or affirm..." That's as close as it gets to any reference to God.

ricksfolly
 
scourge99 said:
What do you have that no one can take away?

People can enslave you, kill you, torture you, make you go insane, drug you, beat you, etc.

There is NOTHING you have that cannnot be taken away by others given enough power and time.
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you are confusing practice of a right with having the right itself. I, for example, have the right to bear arms irrespective of whether or not i choose to do so. one does not lose the right to bear arms simply because someone does not have weaponry. when the police illegally search a vehicle or home, they have not removed one's rights in this area, they have violated rights that still exist. i can be murdered; that doesn't mean that i do not have the right not to be deprived of life without due process of law.
 
cpwill said:
you are confusing practice of a right with having the right itself. I, for example, have the right to bear arms irrespective of whether or not i choose to do so. one does not lose the right to bear arms simply because someone does not have weaponry. when the police illegally search a vehicle or home, they have not removed one's rights in this area, they have violated rights that still exist. i can be murdered; that doesn't mean that i do not have the right not to be deprived of life without due process of law.
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And how are rights created? Some pedophiles believe they have the "right" to rape little children but others simply don't recognize their right. And guess what? They are correct.

"Rights" are a human construct about what freedoms and actions a person is allowed within a society. They are nothing more than a personal or group opinion that are sometimes codified.

Even if your favored god does exist, he is unwilling or unable to ensure the exercise of his preferred rights. At the very most he has informed you of what freedoms and actions (rights) he finds acceptable within a society.
 
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roguenuke said:
Look, what would be concrete proof that God talked to those founding fathers?
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there isn't any; just as there isn't any concrete proof that you are not working on behalf of the Iranians. all we can do is go with the available evidence, indeed, that's all we can do with anything in life. what you are suggesting, however, is that we should for some reason dispel this rational approach in order to favor your preferred outcome.

There isn't any way to even prove that God seemed to want something to happen, especially not with the contradiction that I mentioned. If God wanted both to happen, then why wait so long between "inspiring" people to do one but not the other. He is God, if He truly wanted to make changes in how people live then He could have done so. Logic holds that he could have very easily have influenced every one of those founding fathers to go that step further, free the slaves, and give all those rights enumerated in the Constitution to every human being, not just those that were deemed worthy by the majority of the people at the time.
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:shrug: i would say that He seems to have been improving us as a species no faster than we can manage, broken as we are. and I would point out as well that the abolitionist movement was made up most ardently by His followers who also claimed that He was pushing them to action in that area. The Founding Fathers felt similarly; Thomas Jefferson in particular wrote that he trembled with fear for the future of his nation when he reflected that God was Just.
 
scourge99 said:
And how are rights created?
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they are inherent to the human condition. you might as well ask how the sex drive is created.

"Rights" are a human construct about what freedoms and actions a person is allowed within a society. They are nothing more than a personal or group opinion that are sometimes codified.

Even if your favored god does exist, he is unwilling or unable to ensure the exercise of his preferred rights. At the very most he has informed you of what freedoms and actions (rights) he finds acceptable within a society.
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:shrug: i recognize the right of free speech. i don't spend all my time rushing about the nation looking for statutes that violate it so that i can spend my every waking moment fighting them. and does it surprise you that God would consider acting with responsibility an improvement?

but at least we've gotten past the silly "if a right can be violated then you never had it" argument.
 
cpwill said:
they are inherent to the human condition. you might as well ask how the sex drive is created.
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then what of pedophiles who claim the have the right to make love with children?

1) Does that right "exist"?
2) Do you recognize it?
3) What rights are inherent to the "human condition" and which aren't? How do you make such a determination?

My answers:
1 and 2) Yes, the right exists to the pedophiles. I do not recognize or advocate for such a right. I understand that some pedophiles believe to have such a right.

cpwill said:
:shrug: i recognize the right of free speech.
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how did you come to recognize that as a right as opposed to "not-a-right"?

cpwill said:
does it surprise you that God would consider acting with responsibility an improvement?
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So you acknowledge that god is unwilling or unable to guarantee the exercise of rights whether they be man-made or god-made?
 
scourge99 said:
then what of pedophiles who claim the have the right to make love with children?
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:shrug: i'd say that they are incorrect; which answers your first two questions. as to your third, it's a good one, and I'll admit, I don't have as solid an answer for you as I would like. Until i have a better I'm going to stick with the combined experience of centuries of our brightest minds and souls who have dedicated themselves to just these questions (it was Jesus, for example, who first enunciated the concept of seperation of Church and State). that seems a fairly safe place to start to build from.

So you acknowledge that god is unwilling or unable to guarantee the exercise of rights whether they be man-made or god-made?
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I acknowledge freely and always that God has granted humankind free will, which includes the freedom to make evil choices, which includes evil choices that harm our fellow man and violate his or her rights.
 
cpwill said:
you are confusing practice of a right with having the right itself. I, for example, have the right to bear arms irrespective of whether or not i choose to do so.
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Not if you go by the original second amendment... The right to bear arms only applies to militias, and you're an individual. Here, read it again...

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

ricksfolly
 
cpwill said:
:shrug: i'd say that they are incorrect; which answers your first two questions.
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No it doesn't. And I can't help but to think you are being purposely disingenuous but I'll withhold that belief pending your next post in case I'm hastily reading into things.

My questions were:
1) Does that right "exist"?
2) Do you recognize it?

Answering how you did does NOT answer the question but appears to be dodging the questions.

Here are some reasonable answers:
1a) The right does not exist and here is why...
1b) the right does exist.
2a) I do not recognize that right because ...
2b) I recognize that right.

Notice how your response isn't an answer at all. Can you try to answer the questions directly this time?


cpwill said:
as to your third, it's a good one, and I'll admit, I don't have as solid an answer for you as I would like. Until i have a better I'm going to stick with the combined experience of centuries of our brightest minds and souls who have dedicated themselves to just these questions (it was Jesus, for example, who first enunciated the concept of seperation of Church and State). that seems a fairly safe place to start to build from.
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I don't see the relevance between the separation of church and state and my 3rd question.



cpwill said:
So you acknowledge that god is unwilling or unable to guarantee the exercise of rights whether they be man-made or god-made?
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I acknowledge freely and always that God has granted humankind free will, which includes the freedom to make evil choices, which includes evil choices that harm our fellow man and violate his or her rights.
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Ahh I see.

So you distinguish between two types of rights?
1) God declared rights
2) Man declared rights

And I presume that you believe:
1) The rights you believe exist coincide with "god declared rights" 2) other rights are wrong or non-existant
 
Sean_H said:
Most of them who were religious were deists, and the country isn't based on christian morals at all. Most of the laws that coincide with the ten commandments are cultural universals and have been seen almost everywhere, but the first four would require a theocracy. You're wrong, organized has done more harm than good here and it doesn't appear that it will stop anytime soon.
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That's fine with me buddy, because you are still admitting that God made the Universe and THIS country.....AND NOT EVOLUTION.

Thank you for playing, you fail.
 
American said:
That's fine with me buddy, because you are still admitting that God made the Universe and THIS country.....AND NOT EVOLUTION.

Thank you for playing, you fail.
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A person can believe in God and evolution. They are not mutually exclusive.

A person can also believe that God made the universe and still not believe in any particular religion.

How come some people believe that it has to be one or the other? It doesn't. To be a member of a particular religion, most of the time, it means believing that God did certain things that contradict science. However, a person does not have to prescribe to any religion to believe in God. And the concept of God doesn't exactly contradict science (depending on a person's view of what God is and what He can do/does do), just some of the events that certain religions attribute to God do.
 
scourge99 said:
No it doesn't. And I can't help but to think you are being purposely disingenuous but I'll withhold that belief pending your next post in case I'm hastily reading into things
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i think you are. specifically my answers are:

1) Does that right "exist"?
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no, having sex with children is not an inalienable right.

2) Do you recognize it?
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as it does not exist i do not.

Answering how you did does NOT answer the question but appears to be dodging the questions.
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i would say that pointing out that those who say there is a right to do so are wrong answers the first and by extension the second. if they are wrong to say there is a right, then logically there is not, ergo i do not recognize that which i claim does not exist.
I don't see the relevance between the separation of church and state and my 3rd question.
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i was merely pointing out the depth, range, and history of the one metric i had decided to begin with.

Ahh I see.

So you distinguish between two types of rights?
1) God declared rights
2) Man declared rights

And I presume that you believe:
1) The rights you believe exist coincide with "god declared rights" 2) other rights are wrong or non-existant
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i would say that there are inalienable rights given by God to man, and that these are few and general; and that man recently has begun fraily and weakly to attempt to create his own both within and in conjunction with those.

so, for example, if God has granted mankind the inalienable ability to think for himself, decide matters of right and wrong, and publicly defend them (free speech), it is mankind who has said 'and that means we have the right to say whatever we wish in a newspaper, but not to dance naked in the public streets'.
 
roguenuke said:
A person can believe in God and evolution. They are not mutually exclusive.
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C.S. Lewis is the example I always go with here, of a man who believed in the reality of both. frankly i think the scientific account reinforces the biblical one rather than detracting from it.
 
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