Does the term redneck refer to a culture or race?

Caine said:

So what you are saying is you would act like a savage, uncivilized, animal?

Great, just give racist idiots more ammunition... :roll:

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I just have a foul temper.
Everybody knows it.
Thinking about the way blacks have been treated in the recent past makes me simultaneously want to puke and hurt someone.
If I were black, if it were personal, if somebody had done these things to my grandparents, if my dad had been a child under Jim Crow... all I can say is, I'm glad most blacks have a more forgiving nature than I do and don't share my rotten disposition, or else none of us would be safe.

1069 said:

Unbelievably, from what my research has been able to turn up, most owners did not actually beat their slaves much, if at all.
Most of the slaves owned by my family, for instance, and even their children, remained with my family after emancipation and worked as sharecroppers. They had their own cabins and everything. The cabins are still there, on our land.
If only the threat of torture had kept them there, they surely would've left as soon as the chance presented itself. They're human, after all.

I think most owners treated their slaves more like retarded family members or valuable pets, prone to wander off if one wasn't careful.
Not that this is more admirable than beating the crap out of them; it's heinous. It's appalling that intelligent adult human beings- generations of them- had to live this way, all of their human potential extinguished like that.
But I don't think that all slave owners were cruel to their slaves. Especially the ones who only owned a few.
They probably cared about their well-being, in a sick, twisted but genuine way.
Which is actually worse, to my way of thinking.

The past, blech. **** it. :2sick1:

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I understand that they didn't all beat their slaves. They didn't have to. Where were they going to go? They would stick out like a sore thumb. I'm just answering the unsupported claims that it was too expensive to keep them from running off. I don't buy it.

Cochise said:

It's not true that the Civil War was "not about slavery," as some historical revisionists have claimed. It was not about slavery in its context as a moral issue, since the general public, Lincoln included, were typically adherents to doctrines of black racial inferiority. It was about slavery as an economic issue, with it being an integral staple of agrarian labor productivity in Southern states. It was about Southern resistance of Northern dominance, but resistance of perceived federal interests in abolition of an authoritarian institution, just as it was when the South resisted desegregation a century later.

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I find the whole "Not about slavery" and "all about slavery" thing an interesting and intriguing parallel to the discussions regarding 9/11 today and "not about Islam" and "all about islam" arguments. I think in both cases the people taking the "Not About" route are essentially not, one and all, necessarily discounting that said thing was part of the reasons for it but instead taking issue with HOW its presented.

For example, in regards to 9/11 and the War on Terror they take exception to the seeming way its been made out that Islam is seemingly morally bad and unquestionably evil and must be stopped. In regards to the Civil War its the implication and seeming notion that the North was fighting because they wanted the freedom and liberation of the Slaves because they found it morally reprehensible while the South was just pissed off that they wouldn't be able to use slaves anymore and they liked Slavery.

In both cases, its a far more complex and nuanced situation than what the general presentation is, and because of it those that reject the common presentation tend to often go too far the other way by completely acting like that particular thing (Islam/Slavery) that unquestionably was a large factor in many of the secondary reasons didn't even play into it or played into it minorly.

The economics, political, and territorial issues that helped spur on the creation of the Confederacy and the start of the war was, pretty much, stirred primarily above all else by the slavery issue. Would it have happened if not for the slavery issue? Quite possibly...but the historical facts is it was tied to that. So while it isn't like its often made out when done in simple terms, that the South just loved them some enslaving of people and wanted to keep doing that, Slavery was completely interwoven into all the various other reasons for the secession (either as a partial reason for that issue or as a major reason for it). This is similar to 9/11 where there were definite political, economical, and territorial issues that helped spur further the attack and it wasn't just because "Islam views us all as infidels and wants us dead so they attacked us" like its often presented in the most simplistic of terms; however the extreme following of Islams tenets and philosophies can be found completely interwoven into all the various other reasons for the attacks (either as a partial reason or as a major reason).

Its always interesting to me how history can repeat itself and patterns routinely continue to play out over and over again.

I can't really vote in this poll because I think that the term "redneck" refers to a subculture existing within a particular race (Caucasian).

1069 said:

All I can say is, if you're brown, I hope you never visit the all-white town of Vider, Texas. Especially not after dark.

There is plenty of systematic racial discrimination- and systematically condoned racial violence- going on in plenty of isolated pockets all over the south.
Less in the large cities, more in rural areas and small towns.

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All I can say is, if your white, I hope you never visit certain areas of more than 3,500+ cities across America, especially after dark.

There is plenty of geographical racial discrimination - and systematically condoned racial violence - going on in plenty of isolated pockets all over the south, north, east and west.
More in the large cities, less in the rural areas and small towns.

TacticalEvilDan said:

I can't really vote in this poll because I think that the term "redneck" refers to a subculture existing within a particular race (Caucasian).

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Well then, it seems your vote would be "it's cultural".

1069 said:

I just have a foul temper.
Everybody knows it.
Thinking about the way blacks have been treated in the recent past makes me simultaneously want to puke and hurt someone.
If I were black, if it were personal, if somebody had done these things to my grandparents, if my dad had been a child under Jim Crow... all I can say is, I'm glad most blacks have a more forgiving nature than I do and don't share my rotten disposition, or else none of us would be safe.

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So since all the slave owners are dead, Who would you go after?

Cochise said:

A minority of rural whites are referred to as "rednecks." A majority of urban blacks could fall under the connotation "ghetto." The latter will therefore have a much stronger association with a general conception of African-Americans.

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Well, I'm glad to hear that's how you feel it is out in Arizona.

Living in the south, and a rural portion of the south for most of my life...."rednecks", "Hillbillys", "hicks", and other connotations were hardly rare things that only a minority of the population uttered or were referenced as, as if it was a minor occurrence. Conversely, not having grown up in a large city, during that time I had rarely if ever heard of any of the black individuals in my school or that I knew around the area called "Ghetto". I would dare say the frequency of when and how those types of people are referenced as such depends on the location you're at at a given time.

For purely anecdotal evidence...go look at the audience of any comedy show with Jeff Foxworthy, or go thumb through any of his books with illustrations and count out how many black rednecks are depicted

FilmFestGuy said:

But why do those waving the flag keep waving it when people say, "I find that offensive."

You can't claim to be offended at "redneck" when you keep putting a symbol that represents racism to many people in front of their faces even as you say it's not racist.

You're doing the same thing as The_Patriot. You're claiming that you get to define all words and symbols your way and everyone else be damned.

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No, he is not letting someone elses whiney, misunderstanding, easily offended crybaby ass prevent him from showing his regional pride.

Caine said:

So since all the slave owners are dead, Who would you go after?

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The perpetrators of Jim Crow are far from "all dead", and white families, descendants of slave owners, reap the benefits of their ancestors' crimes against humanity to this day.
Smugly, some of them, I might add.

FilmFestGuy said:

I personally have less a problem with the Stars and Bars than many do. In fact, I find it much less intimidating in the South than I do in the North - because you can pretty much know the motivation of a Northerner flying it; where you can't necessarily know in the South.

That said, I'm trying to point out the irony of how one side is trying to say: Don't use redneck. It's offensive. And while doing so, proudly using a symbol that is equally offensive to others.

It's one side trying to claim the right to define every word and symbol.

My flag isn't racist if you think it is. Redneck is offensive, even if you say you mean no offense by it.

Do you see?

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Black Guy: "What up nigga!!!"

___

White Guy: "What up nigga!"
Black Guy: "Don't say nigga, you racist cracka!".

Zyphlin said:

Well, I'm glad to hear that's how you feel it is out in Arizona.

Living in the south, and a rural portion of the south for most of my life...."rednecks", "Hillbillys", "hicks", and other connotations were hardly rare things that only a minority of the population uttered or were referenced as, as if it was a minor occurrence. Conversely, not having grown up in a large city, during that time I had rarely if ever heard of any of the black individuals in my school or that I knew around the area called "Ghetto". I would dare say the frequency of when and how those types of people are referenced as such depends on the location you're at at a given time.

For purely anecdotal evidence...go look at the audience of any comedy show with Jeff Foxworthy, or go thumb through any of his books with illustrations and count out how many black rednecks are depicted

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If I, as an English-speaking resident of the United States, asked you about the "white" accent or dialect, this question would be nonsensical; the speech patterns of white U.S. residents vary according to region. You'd presumably understand the "black" U.S. dialect as a reference to African-American Vernacular English, or "ebonics," sometimes termed "bad English" even as deviant white dialects are left unmolested.

But the point is that few people would understand reference to "white" speech as reference to the specific dialect of rural Southerners, associated with rednecks and hillbillies, whereas most people would understand reference to "black" speech as reference to the "urban" dialect of the hood. The "ghetto" stereotype is more commonly associated with blacks as a whole than the "redneck" stereotype is with whites as a whole, and also plays a more critical role in policy issues, since it's more widespread.

Caine said:

And yet, again, Why do YOU get to define everything for everyone?

Why do you get to define what the Confederate flag means, or that its totally acceptable to call someone a redneck but not call another person "ghetto" if they happen to be black.

Because, to be honest, we all know that the above two definitions are more crammed down our throat by the ignorant media than The Patriot's version of the story.

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I don't see "ghetto" or "redneck" as racist terms. No one is calling Colin Powell or Condaleeza Rice "ghetto" nor are they calling Mitt Romney or Dennis Kucinic "Rednecks". Yes, the terms do line up with each race for the most part. This is due to education and economic issues for rural and urban areas. It's not racist because of the enormous disparity of the racial demographics of each location.

I've seen black rednecks and white ghetto folk too.

Zyphlin said:

. I think in both cases the people taking the "Not About" route are essentially not, one and all, necessarily discounting that said thing was part of the reasons for it but instead taking issue with HOW its presented.

For example, in regards to 9/11 and the War on Terror they take exception to the seeming way its been made out that Islam is seemingly morally bad and unquestionably evil and must be stopped. In regards to the Civil War its the implication and seeming notion that the North was fighting because they wanted the freedom and liberation of the Slaves because they found it morally reprehensible while the South was just pissed off that they wouldn't be able to use slaves anymore and they liked Slavery.

In both cases, its a far more complex and nuanced situation than what the general presentation is, and because of it those that reject the common presentation tend to often go too far the other way by completely acting like that particular thing (Islam/Slavery) that unquestionably was a large factor in many of the secondary reasons didn't even play into it or played into it minorly.

The economics, political, and territorial issues that helped spur on the creation of the Confederacy and the start of the war was, pretty much, stirred primarily above all else by the slavery issue. Would it have happened if not for the slavery issue? Quite possibly...but the historical facts is it was tied to that. So while it isn't like its often made out when done in simple terms, that the South just loved them some enslaving of people and wanted to keep doing that, Slavery was completely interwoven into all the various other reasons for the secession (either as a partial reason for that issue or as a major reason for it). This is similar to 9/11 where there were definite political, economical, and territorial issues that helped spur further the attack and it wasn't just because "Islam views us all as infidels and wants us dead so they attacked us" like its often presented in the most simplistic of terms; however the extreme following of Islams tenets and philosophies can be found completely interwoven into all the various other reasons for the attacks (either as a partial reason or as a major reason).

Its always interesting to me how history can repeat itself and patterns routinely continue to play out over and over again.

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EXACTLY, thank you. I am not saying and have not said that slavery was not a factor... simply that it wasn't THE factor that caused the war, and the war was not purely a matter of the North, in their shining light of benevolent and minority-loving goodness, against the South portrayed as pure evil. It was much more complicated than that.

And I reiterate: the modern South is no more (or less) racist than virtually any other part of the nation these days.

I tend to believe it refers to a culture but I could be wrong.

I don't see "ghetto" or "redneck" as racist terms. No one is calling Colin Powell or Condaleeza Rice "ghetto"...

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Perhaps not, but some crazy-ass mofos call them "niggers".
I guess those would be the "rednecks".
You know, like the ones who populate Stormfront?

1069 said:

Well then, it seems your vote would be "it's cultural".

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Nooooooooooooooo, it wouldn't be. If I voted "cultural," that would indicate that I believed members of other races/ethnicities were eligible for the title of "redneck," and I don't believe that's true.

FilmFestGuy said:

So, when someone referred to racist shouts at the mural in Arizona as "redneckitude", you're saying that they implied it toward the entire South. When, of course, they were referring to racist individuals in Arizona.

We can enter a rhetorical discussion here. I'm glad to. But rhetorical studies will tell you that intended message is only half of communication. How you are perceived by your audience is equally as important in communication.

You can claim your intent all you like, but if you're not convincing your audience that the Stars and Bars aren't racist, then you're failing in your attempts to communicate. If those who would like the flag to be inclusive of Southern culture in general, then there would be Southern blacks and Southern Indians flying it proudly, too.

It's about White regional pride. And that makes it racist.

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1069 said:

Perhaps not, but some crazy-ass mofos call them "niggers".
I guess those would be the "rednecks".
You know, like the ones who populate Stormfront?

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Nice dodge, but you ignored the purpose of my post.

Maybe because you don't like how its not fair to point out that a white person calling a particular black person "ghetto" is equal to someone calling a white southerner a "redneck".

Its just a cultural thing after all.

Caine said:

Black Guy: "What up nigga!!!"

___

White Guy: "What up nigga!"
Black Guy: "Don't say nigga, you racist cracka!".

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The context of the word changes depending on who the speaker is. I would say that both of them are being ghetto.

I know you are going to say that is racist. If it were in a vacuum it would be. Black people aren't going to forget the history of their status in this country. Things are better now, some say that things are equal, some still say that there is progress to be had. There are still people alive who experienced institutional racism. They tell the younger generation about these tails and it gives them a different perspective. These feelings take time to deplete. They have a half-life so to speak.

Your Star said:

If its a well know fact show me numbers.

And the main cause of the Civil war was slavery. It was slavery that divided the country, and it was slavery that caused the Civil War. And please don't give me that states rights bullcrap, the only reason the southern states wanted states rights is so they could keep their slaves.

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..........and their Economy...... and their money from unfair tarriffs.

Sad your a southerner and don't know this.
Did you grow up in the South?
If so, was it Atlanta? They probable teach the northern indoctrization of what the civil war was in Atlanta.

independent_thinker2002 said:

The context of the word changes depending on who the speaker is. .

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No it doesn't. The context is how the person is using a word not what race the person is.

Cochise said:

If I, as an English-speaking resident of the United States, asked you about the "white" accent or dialect, this question would be nonsensical; the speech patterns of white U.S. residents vary according to region. You'd presumably understand the "black" U.S. dialect as a reference to African-American Vernacular English, or "ebonics," sometimes termed "bad English" even as deviant white dialects are left unmolested.

But the point is that few people would understand reference to "white" speech as reference to the specific dialect of rural Southerners, associated with rednecks and hillbillies, whereas most people would understand reference to "black" speech as reference to the "urban" dialect of the hood. The "ghetto" stereotype is more commonly associated with blacks as a whole than the "redneck" stereotype is with whites as a whole, and also plays a more critical role in policy issues, since it's more widespread.

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I've seen many black comedians use the "white guy voice". They all sounds similar, it sounds like Urkel.

Cochise said:

You can see the same foundations of white populism in Caine's posts, for example.

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Are you implying im some kind of racist?

independent_thinker2002 said:

I've seen many black comedians use the "white guy voice". They all sounds similar, it sounds like Urkel.

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I've seen a couple of black comedians interpret it as combination lawyer-game-show-host kind of thing.