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Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?


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SOME cops are trigger happy, with their guns and their tazers....a recent event in Utah had a cop tazing a mentally disturbed man who was unarmed, and either off his meds or having a bad reaction to them. The man died. His family was there and between family and cop they should have been able to tackle him.
Tazers are not used when confronted with lethal force. Tazers are used to prevent physical injury when the threat of physical violence is present.

In a situation where I was assaulted, I tackled the suspect resulting in me and the suspect getting all skinned up from the resulting struggle on the pavement. I could have just tazed him and stayed injury free.
 
Tazers are not designed to be used against someone deploying deadly force against an officer.

You have a tazer and your opponent has a gun you will most likely die

If a suspect challenges a cop with a knife or a club, the proper response is to draw a pistol

Two reasons, non lethal means-mace, tazer, etc are notoriously unreliable stoppers

Secondly, drawing a nightstick on a guy with a knife is a challenge. However, if you draw a gun you have given him an honorable option of backing down
Even the toughest biker scum are not going to call a fellow mope a coward for dropping a knife when someone is pointing a 40 caliber at his head.

Now if he backs down to a PR-24 or a tazer that is seriously dent in the cred
So tazers and the like are for subduing unarmed (except with feet and fists) persons only?

Makes sense.
 
tazers are not designed to be used against someone deploying deadly force against an officer.

you have a tazer and your opponent has a gun you will most likely die

if a suspect challenges a cop with a knife or a club, the proper response is to draw a pistol

two reasons, non lethal means-mace, tazer, etc are notoriously unreliable stoppers

secondly, drawing a nightstick on a guy with a knife is a challenge. however, if you draw a gun you have given him an honorable option of backing down
even the toughest biker scum are not going to call a fellow mope a coward for dropping a knife when someone is pointing a 40 caliber at his head.

now if he backs down to a PR-24 or a tazer that is seriously dent in the cred

When I went through the academy we were taught to always one up for your own safety. If they have no weapon you use non lethal only. Tazers were preferred over batons in almost every case. If they had any kind of mêlée weapon or were committing a forcible felony you pulled your weapon. If you were going into an unknown situation like a building search or a night traffic stop you have your weapon at ready just in case.

Simple rules that can keep an officer alive.
 
So tazers and the like are for subduing unarmed (except with feet and fists) persons only?

Makes sense.

That is what I have been told

I am not a cop but I spent several years defending in court cops charged with "excessive force"

I also was guest "expert" at Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute" (he's a well known expert on self defense and has been an expert witness in some high profile cases including that case in Miami where a Hispanic cop shot a Black youth that caused riots) and I believe he states the same thing. Tazers are used on suspects who appear to be beligerent and looking to fight cops-but are not packing heat or other seriously lethal stuff (like a sword for example)

in some cases I could see a tazer being appropriate for someone with say a black jack or a knife-assuming your partner is holding a shotgun on the mope
 
So tazers and the like are for subduing unarmed (except with feet and fists) persons only?

Makes sense.

Yes. It is non lethal force. If you have noticed most officers don't even carry batons or the PR 24 anymore. Some do carry collapsible batons as you never know.
 
Yes. It is non lethal force. If you have noticed most officers don't even carry batons or the PR 24 anymore. Some do carry collapsible batons as you never know.

true. but PR 24's have lots of other uses ( I had a case involving a cop thrashing a mope pretty hard with one so I got one and learned how to use it during the defense of the case). they are good for climbing over city walls and fences. They are much better for CQC than a tazer. They can be used to steady a longer range pistol shot. You can use them to knock out the window of a car which contains a trapped victim.

BTW I love those ASP expandable batons-keep one in the console of my car.
 
SOME cops are trigger happy, with their guns and their tazers....a recent event in Utah had a cop tazing a mentally disturbed man who was unarmed, and either off his meds or having a bad reaction to them. The man died. His family was there and between family and cop they should have been able to tackle him.
..

Please don't believe everything you read in the newspapers. A friend of mine, Amy, who worked for SLCPD, was involved in a lethal use of force with a mentally ill guy. The subject was well over six feet, 250 pounds, and whackadoo out of his mind on drugs. It was pitch black, pouring rain, and the guy was menacing Amy and her partner with a larger club made from a tree branch. Her partner slipped in the mud and went down, and the guy charged Amy. She shot him in the head (as she was trained to do). The family of the subject claimed that he was really non-violent and they should have been able to subdue the guy without lethal force.

That's a pretty easy claim to make when you're armchair quarterbacking and in no risk of harm (not to mention suing the department for illegal use of force in hopes of a big cash payoff). But when you're actually THERE, faced with using force, it happens so fast that training kicks in and the officers involved do the best they can, given the circumstances.
 
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IF only the newspapers could be forced to print the truth, the whole truth and only the truth.
Now its based on sensationalism, simply to interest the people into reading their rags.
And "Liberal" or Conservative have nothing to do with this problem.
 
IF only the newspapers could be forced to print the truth, the whole truth and only the truth.
Now its based on sensationalism, simply to interest the people into reading their rags.
And "Liberal" or Conservative have nothing to do with this problem.

It's my experience that stories about police brutality are often spun by plaintiff's attorneys.
 
IF only the newspapers could be forced to print the truth, the whole truth and only the truth.
Now its based on sensationalism, simply to interest the people into reading their rags.
And "Liberal" or Conservative have nothing to do with this problem.

Yeah, if so, Obama never would have been elected president
 
It's my experience that stories about police brutality are often spun by plaintiff's attorneys.

Good point-prosecuting attorneys who are charged with defending cops and federal LEO's usually are not nearly as free to comment upon pending cases. Now if the DA is prosecuting the cops, that means there's probably a plaintiff's attorney also seeking civil damages and a contract counsel defending the cop

in those cases you get lots of juicy press tidbits
 
Good point-prosecuting attorneys who are charged with defending cops and federal LEO's usually are not nearly as free to comment upon pending cases. Now if the DA is prosecuting the cops, that means there's probably a plaintiff's attorney also seeking civil damages and a contract counsel defending the cop

in those cases you get lots of juicy press tidbits

I've seen this happen a lot. Prosecutors and police representatives are bound by conditions that plaintiffs's and defense attorneys are not. This gives these folks an advantage in trying the case in the media well before the trial ever happens.
 
Depends on what kind of threat you're talking about and whether there are witnesses or not.

ricksfolly
He's quite obviously talking about threats against the lives of police officers and/or those they are protecting, despite the poor English usage in the title.

Witnesses have nothing whatsoever to do with discussion.
 
The Utah case I referred to, the mentally ill person who got killed by a Tazer was harming no one. He stripped naked and was running around next to a country road. He was a hazard to himself, yes, but he was attacking nobody. I don't know the protocol for using a tazer, but it seems obvioius that a person already agitated from mental problems should not be tazed unless he is about to harm others.
Of the only 5 cops that I know personally, one was a bit too eager to "protect" the public when a young female was there to see him perform. He ticketed my FIL when said female was actually at fault in a fender bender. The judge saw it for what it was, dismissed the case against my FIL, and told the cop to hang around for an ass chewing session.
I support the police in general, but every now and then you get a bad one....no profession is immune.
 
The Utah case I referred to, the mentally ill person who got killed by a Tazer was harming no one. He stripped naked and was running around next to a country road. He was a hazard to himself, yes, but he was attacking nobody. I don't know the protocol for using a tazer, but it seems obvioius that a person already agitated from mental problems should not be tazed unless he is about to harm others.

I can't really comment on a rehash of a case second hand that I know nothing about. Were you there on the scene, or are you relying on reports from family members and their attorneys?

Of the only 5 cops that I know personally, one was a bit too eager to "protect" the public when a young female was there to see him perform. He ticketed my FIL when said female was actually at fault in a fender bender. The judge saw it for what it was, dismissed the case against my FIL, and told the cop to hang around for an ass chewing session.
I support the police in general, but every now and then you get a bad one....no profession is immune.
Your anecdotal story, while charming, has no relationship to the thread title.
 
Not much to add here except I wonder why we would shift the power in these life and death situations away from the cops and towards the criminals.
 
I can't really comment on a rehash of a case second hand that I know nothing about. Were you there on the scene, or are you relying on reports from family members and their attorneys?


Your anecdotal story, while charming, has no relationship to the thread title.
I will add this to it....if I showed a photo of the entire police force for that community, almost anybody would be able to pick out the lone asswipe in the group....
We moved soon after the event with my FIL, so I never heard more about him. Hopefully he found work more suitable to his temperament....
Concerning the death, yes, family members reported their side of the story, which matched the cops story. He had no way of knowing the man would die, it was a freakish situation. THAT cop wasn't an asswipe, but he surely could have handled THAT situation better.
But the fact remains, the man had no weapon in his hands, and was not attacking anyone.
And you are not expected to comment, especially since you seem to be a bit biased here. Like I said, no profession is immune....
I am old enough to have personal knowledge or experience of a lawyer ripping off his own mother's assets, a dentist molesting female clients, another professional using his private plane to run drugs, and more... All supposedlly good people demonstrating bad judgement.
 
I guess I'm piling on. What a stupid idea.

It puts officers in the position of being second guessed and as others have said, if they feel the need to pull their weapon, then they feel they are in mortal danger and should shoot to kill.

Sam put it much better than I.
 
I will add this to it....if I showed a photo of the entire police force for that community, almost anybody would be able to pick out the lone asswipe in the group....
We moved soon after the event with my FIL, so I never heard more about him. Hopefully he found work more suitable to his temperament....
Concerning the death, yes, family members reported their side of the story, which matched the cops story. He had no way of knowing the man would die, it was a freakish situation. THAT cop wasn't an asswipe, but he surely could have handled THAT situation better.
But the fact remains, the man had no weapon in his hands, and was not attacking anyone.
And you are not expected to comment, especially since you seem to be a bit biased here. Like I said, no profession is immune....
I am old enough to have personal knowledge or experience of a lawyer ripping off his own mother's assets, a dentist molesting female clients, another professional using his private plane to run drugs, and more... All supposedlly good people demonstrating bad judgement.

Tazer use has increased a lot in recent years, as more and more departments get them and form policy on their use, then revise that policy.

LE administrators love Tazers. I'll tell you why.

In my day we didn't have them. If someone declined to allow themselves to be arrested... well, we just had to wade in there and grab the guy and subdue him physically. There was never any way to tell how this was going to go, or more importantly how FAR it was going to go. The guy might decide to actively fight, or he might pull a concealed weapon... both cops and subjects got hurt quite often.

The Tazer, in many ways, makes it so much simpler (especially from a liability and admin viewpoint!) If the guy won't cooperate, you zap him and put the cuffs on. The damage done by the tazer is a known quantity, as is its liability profile. Perps suffer less harm, officers suffer less harm.... this cuts down on admin costs and expenses for medical treatment. From a Chief's perspective, or more importantly the perspective of the politicians and bureaucrats he has to answer to, this is like a gift from heaven.

So they use them frequently and enthusiastically. Maybe a little too enthusiastically sometimes, but it is hard to blame them considering that ON AVERAGE a lot fewer people get hurt with the Tazers.

The profile in that case was probably something like "mentally disturbed person, large and strong-looking, who is not responding to requests to cease movement and cooperate with being detained, equals Tazer." They would likely figure that grabbing him and trying to manhandle him would be more dangerous for both the officers and the subject... in most cases.

And the heck of it is, most of the time that is true.
 
Please don't believe everything you read in the newspapers. A friend of mine, Amy, who worked for SLCPD, was involved in a lethal use of force with a mentally ill guy. The subject was well over six feet, 250 pounds, and whackadoo out of his mind on drugs. It was pitch black, pouring rain, and the guy was menacing Amy and her partner with a larger club made from a tree branch. Her partner slipped in the mud and went down, and the guy charged Amy. She shot him in the head (as she was trained to do). The family of the subject claimed that he was really non-violent and they should have been able to subdue the guy without lethal force.That's a pretty easy claim to make when you're armchair quarterbacking and in no risk of harm (not to mention suing the department for illegal use of force in hopes of a big cash payoff). But when you're actually THERE, faced with using force, it happens so fast that training kicks in and the officers involved do the best they can, given the circumstances.
Seems that there are a lot of gang banging wannabe dope peddlers in the Phoenix area who, according to their mothers, are good boys who go to church every Sunday, and were just at the wrong place at the wrong time, and got shot by police who then planted drugs on them. Never mind that the perps are usually on surveillence videos long before the confrontation. Good stuff, that video, sometimes it catches cops going overboard, but most times it proves to the family that their innocent child really wasn't....innocent....
 
What people don't seem to realize is that the police officers don't want to get hurt either. This is about their safety as well as that of the suspect.
 
I will add this to it....if I showed a photo of the entire police force for that community, almost anybody would be able to pick out the lone asswipe in the group....
We moved soon after the event with my FIL, so I never heard more about him. Hopefully he found work more suitable to his temperament....
Concerning the death, yes, family members reported their side of the story, which matched the cops story. He had no way of knowing the man would die, it was a freakish situation. THAT cop wasn't an asswipe, but he surely could have handled THAT situation better.
But the fact remains, the man had no weapon in his hands, and was not attacking anyone.
And you are not expected to comment, especially since you seem to be a bit biased here. Like I said, no profession is immune....
I am old enough to have personal knowledge or experience of a lawyer ripping off his own mother's assets, a dentist molesting female clients, another professional using his private plane to run drugs, and more... All supposedlly good people demonstrating bad judgement.

A weapon is not a pre-requisite for use of a tazer.
This is the 2nd time Ive had to mention this to you.
One also does not have to be in the process of beating another person down before the tazer can be used. I don't have enough detail to comment on the rest of the story. But I can only assume there is alot more to the story than you would let on if the tazer was used.
 
What people don't seem to realize is that the police officers don't want to get hurt either. This is about their safety as well as that of the suspect.

See that is the problem.

Far too often idiot citizens believe its the job of the police to risk greater harm to themselves and risk even death to themselves to ensure that they don't accidentally hurt a suspect more than their preconcieved idea of what is 'reasonable'.

Tazer deaths when a violent high on cocaine freak is running around attacking officers are eaten up by the media and turned into public outcry from liberals who would rather see a few more officers get their ass beat and sent to the hospital instead of use a tazer.

Officer involved shootings where a suspect is killed after pointing a weapon at the public and at officers in a menacing way create huge public outcry when it is later learned that the weapon was not loaded, or way a very realistic looking replica of a weapon.

Officer involved shootings where Officers respond to a call about an armned man, and when the officers confront the man who meets the description, he refuses to put his hands up in plain view and then moves his hands quickly to his waist trying to retrive an item and gets shot. People freak about that when it is later found the individual was NOT armed. As if police are required to get shot in the face before they can defend themselves against an imminent or what is reported to be an imminent threat.

I think the public needs to understand the business of policing before they open their mouths on issues they don't know anything about personally.
 
It occurs to me that there might be some misunderstanding about what a Tazer is.

A Tazer is not a self-defense weapon.

A Tazer is a subject restraint device. That is what it is used for. It is used restrain an uncooperative/resistive/combative subject, so that they can be detained and placed in physical restraints (ie cuffs) without the risks entailed in physical fight.

It is not a "weapon", it is not intended for use against a subject that is capable of inflicting deadly harm. Tazers are too limited to be used regularly in that role. Their range is limited, if you don't get both probes stuck in tight with a reasonable distance between them it may not disable the subject, and you only get two shots.

Restrain uncooperative subject: Tazer.

Deal with subject who is an armed threat: Sidearm.
 
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