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Gays in the Military

Should the law be changed so that gays can serve openly in the military.

  • Yes, do it now

    Votes: 65 67.7%

  • Yes, but after the Pentagon completes it study on the issue

    Votes: 9 9.4%

  • No, do not change the law

    Votes: 12 12.5%

  • No, DADT should be repealed and gays not allowed to serve at all

    Votes: 3 3.1%

  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 7 7.3%
  • Total voters
    96
Blackdog said:
I think it's typical government red tape bull****. Thats OK though, it's over and it's going to happen. And people who are against it are going to have to suck it up, end of story. :)
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Oh, fortunately their are others who are actually thinking. It's hardly the end of the story. It will take time to assimilate the new mind set. In the mean time, what the mouth pieces on both sides (yours and theirs) have to come to realize is that the kind of gays that are willing to wear a uniform in the military, especially the Marine Corps and Army, are not the kinds to go on parade or wear pink nail polish. The anti-gay crowd have this Hollywood stereotype in their heads and the pro-gay crowd are just preaching without care.

The military has already accepted that it is inevitable. Now the quetions are:

1) How to impliment
2) What to expect
3) And how to react

The military has gone through this social restructure before. The only difference between past topics and the gay topic is that the civilian community has accepted it before us.
 
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MSgt said:
Oh, fortunately their are others who are actually thinking.
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Very relevent to the subject at hand. :roll:

MSgt said:
It's hardly the end of the story. It will take time to assimilate the new mind set.
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70% on average and even 60% among conservatives say gays should be able to openly serve. This includes many veterans and active service personal.

I don't think a few homophobes who cannot act professionally will be much of a problem.

MSgt said:
In the mean time, what the mouth pieces on both sides (yours and theirs) have to come to realize is that the kind of gays that are willing to wear a uniform in the military, especially the Marine Corps and Army, are not the kinds to go on parade or wear pink nail polish. The anti-gay crowd have this Hollywood stereotype in their heads and the pro-gay crowd are just preaching without care.
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Before 9/11 on average 600 military persons were discharged under DADT. That flies in the face of your comment and stereo typing of gays.

MSgt said:
The military has already accepted that it is inevitable. Now the quetions are:

1) How to impliment
2) What to expect
3) And how to react
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There is nothing to implement. Gays are already serving. We can expect nothing really to change as gays are already serving, many of them openly.

People may react badly. And they will be delt with under the UCMJ like everyone else.

MSgt said:
The military has gone through this social restructure before. The only difference between past topics and the gay topic is that the civilian community has accepted it before us.
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Don't give me that "us" crap. I am part of that "us" like many other veterans and service members serving now.

Fact: It is hapening sooner rather than later. The majority of the country supports it and so do most of the military.

The homophobia and bigotry like everything else will have to now be kept in the closet.

Welcome to their world. :lol:
 
Blackdog said:
Very relevent to the subject at hand. :roll:



70% on average and even 60% among conservatives say gays should be able to openly serve. This includes many veterans and active service personal.

I don't think a few homophobes who cannot act professionally will be much of a problem.



Before 9/11 on average 600 military persons were discharged under DADT. That flies in the face of your comment and stereo typing of gays.



There is nothing to implement. Gays are already serving. We can expect nothing really to change as gays are already serving, many of them openly.

People may react badly. And they will be delt with under the UCMJ like everyone else.



Don't give me that "us" crap. I am part of that "us" like many other veterans and service members serving now.

Fact: It is hapening sooner rather than later. The majority of the country supports it and so do most of the military.

The homophobia and bigotry like everything else will have to now be kept in the closet.

Welcome to their world. :lol:
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While I do not support the DADT, I strongly disagree with you that if someone supports it it automatically makes him a homophob and a bigot.
I think that's a very foolish and crude thinking you present there.
 
Apocalypse said:
While I do not support the DADT, I strongly disagree with you that if someone supports it it automatically makes him a homophob and a bigot.
I think that's a very foolish and crude thinking you present there.
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I think he meant those who would make trouble with gays after a DADT repeal where homophobes.
 
Redress said:
I think he meant those who would make trouble with gays after a DADT repeal where homophobes.
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Don't excuse his words, it is clear what he has meant to and he has even called MSgt a homophob and a bigot by saying that "The homophobia and bigotry like everything else will have to now be kept in the closet." and then telling him "welcome to their world".
One has to be either a complete idiot or a person who agrees with this generalization to ignore this, and I'm neither.
 
Apocalypse said:
While I do not support the DADT, I strongly disagree with you that if someone supports it it automatically makes him a homophob and a bigot.
I think that's a very foolish and crude thinking you present there.
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Please point out where I said " if someone supports it it automatically makes him a homophobia and a bigot."

I was speaking literally about homophobia and bigots.

I strongly disagree with your strong disagreement!
 
Apocalypse said:
Don't excuse his words, it is clear what he has meant to and he has even called MSgt a homophob and a bigot by saying that "The homophobia and bigotry like everything else will have to now be kept in the closet." and then telling him "welcome to their world".
One has to be either a complete idiot or a person who agrees with this generalization to ignore this, and I'm neither.
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I am so tired of people assuming stupid crap. :roll:

I did not call him anything. I was making an example and a joke.

Actually now that I read it again, it could be taken that way. It was not meant as an insult to Mst Sgt in particular.

Besides, if you think it is just report it.
 
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Blackdog said:
Please point out where I said " if someone supports it it automatically makes him a homophobia and a bigot."

I was speaking literally about homophobia and bigots.

I strongly disagree with your strong disagreement!
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You said:

"70% on average and even 60% among conservatives say gays should be able to openly serve. This includes many veterans and active service personal.

I don't think a few homophobes who cannot act professionally will be much of a problem."

The only conclusion is that the rest of the people in your made up figures are simply "a few homphobes who cannot act professionally".

You should really give up if you're attempting to dodge the inevitable here, I'm not even on MSgt side and I disagree with his posts in this thread, but I seriously dislike such generalizations and personal attacks, they point out at a poster that is not able to form real arguments and relies on attacking the other side.
 
Apocalypse said:
You said:

"70% on average and even 60% among conservatives say gays should be able to openly serve. This includes many veterans and active service personal.

I don't think a few homophobes who cannot act professionally will be much of a problem."

The only conclusion is that the rest of the people in your made up figures are simply "a few homphobes who cannot act professionally".
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Made up figures huh? Guess you did not see the latest polls...

Gallup poll shows 70% of Americans favor openly gay military service

Excuse me for assuming people had seen the news.

Apocalypse said:
You should really give up if you're attempting to dodge the inevitable here, I'm not even on MSgt side and I disagree with his posts in this thread, but I seriously dislike such generalizations and personal attacks, they point out at a poster that is not able to form real arguments and relies on attacking the other side.
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OK

Read the poll and that is that.
 
Apocalypse said:
Well actually the gallup poll says there is a 53% of support from conservatives for openly homosexuals in the military, not 60%.
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That was 2004.

When Republicans were asked in the same years their favorability went from 52% to 60%. Even those who attended church weekly rose from favoring 49% to 57%.

Read the article.
 
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Blackdog said:
That was Church goers.

When Republicans were asked in the same years their favorability went from 52% to 60%. Even those who attended church weekly rose from favoring 49% to 57%.

Read the article.
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Republicans yes, but you said conservatives not republicans.

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Apocalypse said:
Republicans yes, but you said conservatives not republicans.

1spuxg96iuwh0qhjethgba.gif
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Ahhh I see. and this changes my post or position how?

PS you know as well as I do most Republicans consider themselves conservatives. So it was an easy mistake to make. Does not change my position or show I used "made up" facts.
 
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Blackdog said:
Ahhh I see. and this changes my post or position how?
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Um? I believe I've posted this picture because you said that my statement about made up figures was wrong, and I had to back it up?
 
Apocalypse said:
Um? I believe I've posted this picture because you said that my statement about made up figures was wrong, and I had to back it up?
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You accused me of using made up figures and attacking another poster. I proved you wrong on both counts as my figures are accurate and my attack was general and not directed at anyone in particular.

We are done here.

God Bless and have a good night.
 
Blackdog said:
You accused me of using made up figures and attacking another poster. I proved you wrong on both counts as my figures are accurate and my attack was general and not directed at anyone in particular.

We are done here.

God Bless and have a good night.
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How bizzarre.
I've just supplied you with evidence that is showing your figures were made up.
Before it I've pointed out efficiently to where you were making personal attacks and generalizations.
And yet, even though you've completely failed to supply an answer to those charges and evidence, you claim that you have "proven me wrong".
That's ridiculous, and I can see right through you.
Remember, I'm on your side here, but I cannot simply ignore it when my side is completely wrong and is resorting to personal attacks and generalizations.
 
Apocalypse said:
How bizzarre.
I've just supplied you with evidence that is showing your figures were made up.
Before it I've pointed out efficiently to where you were making personal attacks and generalizations.
And yet, even though you've completely failed to supply an answer to those charges and evidence, you claim that you have "proven me wrong".
That's ridiculous, and I can see right through you.
Remember, I'm on your side here, but I cannot simply ignore it when my side is completely wrong and is resorting to personal attacks and generalizations.
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What the heck are you talking about????

I said 60% of conservatives (actually Republicans) and 70% in general and it was absolutely correct according to the poll.

Here is my original statement...

70% on average and even 60% among conservatives say gays should be able to openly serve. This includes many veterans and active service personal.

Here is the article...

Gallup poll shows 70% of Americans favor openly gay military service

So you think because I mixed up republican and conservative somehow this makes the figures wrong??? :lol:

You are wrong and have been since the beginning. :roll:
 
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Blackdog said:
What the heck are you talking about????

I said 60% of conservatives (actually Republicans) and 70% in general and it was absolutely correct according to the poll.
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False, the picture I've posted acts as a contradicting evidence to the claim that 60% of the conservatives are anti-DADT, showing that the real figure is 53%.
Here is my original statement...

70% on average and even 60% among conservatives say gays should be able to openly serve. This includes many veterans and active service personal.

Here is the article...

Gallup poll shows 70% of Americans favor openly gay military service

So you think because I mixed up republican and conservative somehow this makes the figures wrong??? :lol:
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You may claim that you've simply "mixed up" the two, but fact is you've given a wrong detail and I've corrected you, is that so hard to take?
You are wrong and have been since the beginning. :roll:
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Your words mean nothing.
 
Apocalypse said:
False, the picture I've posted acts as a contradicting evidence to the claim that 60% of the conservatives are anti-DADT, showing that the real figure is 53%.
You may claim that you've simply "mixed up" the two, but fact is you've given a wrong detail and I've corrected you, is that so hard to take?
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Only problem is until now, that is not what you said...

The only conclusion is that the rest of the people in your made up figures are simply "a few homphobes who cannot act professionally".

I've just supplied you with evidence that is showing your figures were made up.

Any questions?

Apocalypse said:
Your words mean nothing.
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:sinking:
 
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Blackdog said:
Only problem is until now, that is not what you said...

The only conclusion is that the rest of the people in your made up figures are simply "a few homphobes who cannot act professionally".

I've just supplied you with evidence that is showing your figures were made up.

Any questions?
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How exactly is that not what I said, again?
I've claimed your figures are made up and then have supplied evidence for that, you've then reacted by saying that you've mixed up the republicans and conservatives and I said that I do not care since I was simply correcting you.

C'est tout.
 
Redress said:
We do not allow the military to make those decisions for very good reasons. The military is an instrument of the people, not the other way around. It is not independent.
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The military is the sword-arm of the nation. To continue the analogy, we need to let our sword-arm decide for itself whether the pretty pink bandanna we want to tie around it is too tight, and might cut off circulation, impairing our ability to fight efficiently. :mrgreen:



Yes I'm being slightly facetious, but I'm also serious: Job One is being ready to fight well. All other things are secondary or tertiary, including social justice, fairness, etc. If the Pentagon and the troops are ok with it and do not believe it will create significant problems, then I'll be okay with it.... but we ought to at least wait until the Pentagon study is complete, and we ought to be sure we aren't going to impair our sword-arm before we do this.
 
Apocalypse said:
How exactly is that not what I said, again?
I've claimed your figures are made up and then have supplied evidence for that, you've then reacted by saying that you've mixed up the republicans and conservatives and I said that I do not care since I was simply correcting you.

C'est tout.
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All I can say is you mite want to look up the definitions of "Made up" vs "corrected mistake."

Not even remotely the same thing and you know this. :lol:
 
I'm very interested in what problems the military is foreseeing and how they might address these problems. How will the military adapt to gays serving openly?

For the alarmists on this thread, no that is not a rhetorical question "oh noes we cantz do it how willz teh militewy survivz". I would like to understand the issue is greater depth, and specific policy examples are appreciated.
 
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